Sitting of 27 February 1805

MINUTES.
Mr. Bakerpresented a petition from Mr. Bowyer, proprietor of the historic gallery, in Pall-Mali, praying leave to bring in a bill, to enable him to dispose of the pictures and engravings byway of lottery. Ordered to be referred to a committee.— Mr. White presented at the bar the names of the members forming the committee to try the merits of the Knaresborough election, which are as follow: lord H. Petty, Robert Adair, esq. lord; viscount Boyle, lord Louvaine, T. Tyrrwhitt, esq. T. Foley, esq. lord W. Russell, sir W. Milner, lord viscount Ebrington, lord Ossulston, sir R. Lawley, bart. H. Holland, esq. hon. G. L. Dundas: Nominees, hon. C. Grey. C. W. Dundas, Esq.— Mr. Creevy rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the postponement of the order, which stood for Thursday, for considering the petition of certain electors of Middlesex, relative to the qualification of Mr. Mainwaring, the sitting member. The hon. member stated his reason for the motion to be this, that till the committee at present sitting on the subject of the Middle-

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sex election should make their return, which was not expected for several days, it could not be ascertained that it would be necessary to pursue the object of the petition to which his motion referred. If the decision of the committee should seat sir F. Burdett, the petition respecting the qualification of Mr. Mainwaring, would, of course, be abandoned. The hon. member proposed to postpone the order until Thursday, the 26th of April, and his motive for such delay, was in order to accommodate the counsel on both sides, who would be called out of town by the circuits. The motion of the hon. gentleman was agreed to.— Lord Temple presented a petition from the merchants trading to the West Indies, against the bill for the abolition of the slave trade, praying to be heard by counsel at the bar of the house. The petition was ordered to lie on the table until the second reading of the bill. Lord Temple presented a similar petition from Edward Lyon, esquire, agent for Jamaica, which was ordered to lie on the table.— Mr. Foster presented the papers relative to Irish payments at par, moved for by lord A. Hamilton.— Mr Thornton moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the amount of notes issued by the bank of England from the 5th of Dec. 1803, to the 5th of Feb. 1805, distinguishing those under 5l. and the separate amount of each month.— Mr. Huskisson brought in the additional property Duty bill, which was read a first time.— Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the loan bill, which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.— Sir J. Anderson presented a petition from the master and wardens of the company of bakers, stating the distress under which they laboured, and praying for certain allowances from parliament. Referred to a committee, together with the report of the committee in the last session on the same subject.— Sir J. Anderson presented a petition from the carmen of the city of London, praying that they might receive some compensation for the injury they had sustained by certain regulations about the new docks. Referred to a committee.— Mr. W. Dickenson presented the papers relative to the passengers and private property detained on board the Spanish frigates.— Mr. Wilberforce presented petitions from the shear men and woollen manufacturers of the county of York, praying for leave to bring in a
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bill to explain and amend the laws now existing on the subject of the woollen manufacture. Ordered to lie on the table.— Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the additional postage duty bill, which was agreed to.— The speaker acquainted the house, that the clerk had made out and laid on the table, the East India judicature lists.

REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.
Mr. Whitbread,referring to the notice which had been given by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Sheridan) relative to the act of last session for raising an Additional Force, observed, that he thought it necessary, in order to enable the house to judge of the merits of that act, that certain information should be obtained with respect to its operation and effect. As the act of the last session particularly purported to have in view the filling up the deficiencies of the army of reserve and militia, he should move for, an account of the number of men deficient in the army of reserve on the 29th of June last; also, for an account of the deficiency in the several regiments of the militia, at the same period, distinguishing the original from the supplementary militia. The hon. member also moved, for an account of all the bounties paid by parish officers under the act alluded to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought that such an account could not be obtained in time for the discussion to which the hon. member alluded; and suggested, that from the return on the table respecting the number of men obtained under the act, there could be no difficulty in forming an estimate sufficiently accurate with regard to the point to which the motion referred.
Mr. Sheridanwished the house should be furnished with the fullest information on the points to which the motions of his hon. friend alluded, but desired it to be understood, that he would by no means consent to postpone his motion.
Mr. Whitbreadwas anxious to obtain the information which his motion had in view, even if it could not be had previous to the day fixed by his hon. friend, as it might be necessary upon subjects of future discussion. The hon. member also moved, for an account of all penulties assessed on parishes for deficiencies under the act; and also, for that which might become a subject of future discussion, an account of any and what separate rates had been levied upon parishes in conse-

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quence of this act. By this motion he meant to ascertain, whether the expence incurred by the act was identified with the poors' rates in any instance, or separated from them as the act directed; and he was the more induced to press the motion, because he knew it was much the custom to throw into the poors' rateu, which were already so very much extended, things which were not at all connected with the proper object of that tax.
Sir Robert Buxtonsaw no objection to tins motion but the difficulty of complying with it from the mode of keeping parish accounts.
Mr. Whitbreadmoved for copies of all circular letters addressed by the secretaries of state to the lieutenants of counties relative to the execution of this act.— This and the other motions of the hon member were agreed to, as was a motion of Mr. Sheridan, for an account of the number of men raised under this act, from the last return up to the latest period at which the same could be made out.

CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.
Mr. Grey,in the absence of an hon. friend (Mr. Kinnaird) made the motions of which his hon. friend had given notice on a former day, with some others, which he thought necessary to add to them. The papers moved for were; 1, an account of all repairs, & c. of the Romney, when fitted out in Sept. and Oct. 1800, and the expence attending the same; 2, an account of all repairs or alterations of the masts and hull of the Romney, in the months of Oct. Nov. and Peel 1800, together with the expences of the same; 3, the last report of the survey or examination of the Sensible, and the expence of the repairs of 1800, with the amount of the stores furnished to the said ship; 4, an account of all repairs done to the Romney and Sensible,'and other ships under the command of sir Home Popham, and of all stores furnished to the said ships, particularizing the separate expences of each ship, and amount of stores; 5, an account of all the expences, repairs, &c. of the Romney and other vessels under the command of sir Home Popham at the Cape of Good Hope; particularizing the stores, and specifying the quality, quantity, and price of each article; 6, an account of the naval stores, & c, purchased by Mr. Spearman in the Red Sea, and all other disbursements made for the vessels under sir Home Popham, while in that sea; with the vouche:5 for the same; 7, an account of the terms of service, bounties received, the discharges,
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and dates of such discharges, of David Ewing Bartholomew, late master's mate in the Romney, while he was in the service of the navy; 8, an account of the term which the said Bartholomew had served in the Romney; 9, a copy of the order from the admiralty, to sir Home Popham to turn over all the petty officers of the Romney, when she was discharged to other ships; 10, an account of the time when Bartholomew was apprehended in 1803; of the R's placed opposite the name of Bartholomew, and the orders sent from the admiralty for cancelling those R's, with the conditions, &c.
Sir W. Burroughsobjected to the word "apprehended." He thought it was too hurtful to the feelings, and should therefore prefer "taken up," or any other expression.
Admiral Markhamcontended, that as Bartholomew never was discharged from the service at the time he left it, he could not be considered as a man impressed. He therefore must be of opinion that "apprehended" was the most proper word to be made use of in this instance. The orders sent to sir Home Popham were to turn over all the officers of the Romney. Why he did not do so remained for him to shew.
Mr. Greysaid, he had no wish to make use of any word that might be unnecessarily hurtful to the feelings of any person; but the whole of the enquiry might be objected to on much the same grounds.
Mr. Sturges Bournesaid, that some circumstances relating to Mr. Bartholomew, made part of the defence, of sir Home Popham before the admiralty and that house.
Mr. Greyobserved, with respect to the objection to the word he had used, that Bartholomew did actually belong to the navy at the time he had absented himself from service; that notwithstanding the order to sir Home Popham, he was on shore, and on this being heard and considered, the lieutenant of the press-gang took him, and carried him back to the service to which he belonged.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there could be no doubt of the fact, that Bartholomew was taken by the press-gang. Would it not therefore be the better way to use those words in describing a fact which came the nearest to the transaction itself? Why not say, "taken by a press-gang and carried to the Nore".
Sir Home Pophamsaid, that he had, no

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doubt, received an order to turn over his whole crew; but yet that he permitted the other midshipmen, as well as Mr. Bartholomew, to go home to their friends; and that many of them had since returned to the naval service, while others had gone into the army. He mentioned this fact, in order to shew that he shewed no particular partiality to Mr. Bartholomew, in anticipation of his name being brought before that house, which was a thing of which he at that time did not dream. In discharging Mr. Bartholomew and the other midshipmen, he had to observe, that he consulted the commissioner of the pay-office, to whose judgment it was the custom of naval officers to appeal upon paying off a ship. The hon. officer, with reference to the word "apprehended," remarked, that it could only be applicable in the case of Mr. Bartholomew being a deserter. That that gentleman was not so considered, either before or since his being impressed, he thought it unnecessary to say more than this, that previous to his being impressed, Mr. Bartholomew corresponded with lord St. Vincent, and if he had been deemed a deserter, it was fair to presume, that his letter would not have been answered by the admiralty, and after Mr. Bartholomew's being impressed, he was taken on board the Zealand, from which he was transferred to the Inflexible. No proceedings had ever been taken with respect to this gentleman, and he was now a lieutenant on board the Inflexible. This ship, it was known, was under the command of a friend and relation of lord St. Vincent; and he would put it to the house, whether it was probable that Mr. Bartholomew could hold such a rank on board, had he been considered guilty of desertion? Whether the usage of the navy bore him out in the original discharge of Mr. Bartholomew and the other midshipmen, was not now the question; but he submitted to the candid consideration of the house, that as Mr. Bartholomew was not in fairness to be deemed, and he had not, in fact, been treated as a deserter, so the word "apprehended," which implied that, was not applicable to him.
Admiral Markhamsaid, that according to the speech of the hon. baronet, it would be thought Mr. Bartholomew was some young gentleman known to many members of that house, instead of what he appeared to be on entering the service, a landsman and afterwards becoming an able
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bodied seaman.— Here the Speaker interferred, and observed, that the discussion was extending to a length that did not fairly arise out of the question before the house.— The motion, after the omission of the word "apprehended", and the insersertion of the words, "taken by a press-gang", was agreed to.
Mr. Greypresented a petition from Wm. Mitchell, Esq. capt. of his majesty's ship the Zealand. The petitioner complained of certain false statements and misrepresentations contained in letters from, and an affidavit by, David Ewing Bartholomew, which lies on the table of the house, in which the said Bartholomew charges petitioner with ill-treating him while on board the Zealand, in consequence, as Bartholomew stated, of his being known to be a witness in favour of sir Home Popham. Petitioner therefore prayed, that an order should be made, that copies of the letters and affidavit which he had addressed to the secretary of the admiralty, in reference to allegations of Bartholomew's affidavit, should be laid before the house; and also that he, the petitioner, should be furnished with Copies of the letters and affidavit of Bartholomew. Petitioner further prayed, that he might be called to the bar of the house, to answer the charges against him, and that the house would afford him such opportunity of vindicating his honour, as to its judgment should seem meet. The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and orders were made, on the motion of Mr. Grey, for the papers referred to in the said petition. On the motion of Mr. W, Dickenson, a copy was ordered to be laid before the house of the certificate of Mr. Bartholomew having passed his examination for a lieutenancy; also, a copy of the muster roll of the Enterprize relative to the taking of Mr. Bartholomew by a press-gang
Mr. Canningmoved, for copies of all correspondence between the lords of the. admiralty and the commissioners for naval enquiry on the subject of sir Home Popham; also between the admiralty and the navy board, with the dates, and particularly the date of the order of the navy board for sending the papers relating to sir Home Popham to the commissioners for naval enquiry; also an account of what took place before the commissioners on this subject.
Admiral Markham,conceiving the case respecting the hon. baronet would be incom-

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plete without some further papers, moved for the following, which were ordered; an account of all bills drawn on the navy office from Calcutta, or by any persons whatever, for the service of the Romney, the Sensible, and the other ships under the command of Sir H. Popham, in the years 1801 and 1802, specifying the ship for which each bill may have been drawn, as far as such distinction can be made out; also for copies of letters addressed by the lords of the Admiralty to the navy board, relative to the acceptance of such bills; also for copies of the orders addressed by the Admiralty to the Commissioners of the navy board, directing them to investigate the accounts of Sir H. Popham.— Adjourned.