Sitting of 18 February 1805

MINUTES.
On the motion of sir J. Sinclair, the message of the Lords of the 28th of Jan. requesting the attendance of certain members of that house, was read at the table. The hon. G. L. Cole, and sir J. Stewart, bart. then made au offer of their attendance, with the concurrence of the house. The request of the Lords was then agreed to, and sir J. Stewart was sent to the upper house to acquaint them therewith.—Mr. Francis moved, that there be laid before the house copies of all engagements entered into, and of all correspondence which had taken place between the British government and the Mogul of Delhi, subsequent to the treaty of Bassein, as far as they can be disclosed consistently with the interest of the public service. Ordered.—Accounts of the amount of imports and exports to and from the Isle of Mann, from the 1st Jan. 1798, to the same period in the year current, distinguishing each year, were presented, and ordered to be printed.—The papers which were moved for on a former day, relative to the conduct of Sir Home Popham, were presented, and ordered to be printed for the use of the members of this house.— The quarantine bill was reported and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. —The Land tax commissioners indemnity bill was read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a committee, on the 18th of March.—Sir C. Pole stated that the 10th report of the commissioners of naval enquiry was incorrect in some particulars; the signatures that were affixed to it were not in the usual form, and some others were omitted. He therefore moved, that the report be withdrawn. Leave was then given, and that document was accordingly taken off the table for the purpose of introducing a copy which was regularly signed. —The following were ordered to be laid on the table, viz. an account of the duties payable upon salt in England and Scotland, for 3 years, ending 5th Jan. 1805; an account of the duties on salt, exported for 3 years, ending the;5th Jan. 1805; an

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account of the duties payable upon horses and carriages, for the years 1803 and 1804; an account of the duties upon horses and mules, used in husbandry, in England and Wales, for 3 years, ending the 5th of April, 1804; an account of the net amount of the assessments, under the property act for the year ending 5th of April, 1804. The above accounts were afterwards presented and laid upon the table.

THE BUDGET.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider further of ways and means for raising the supply granted to his majesty, and the several accounts which had been presented to the house being referred to the said committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose and addressed the committee as follows: Mr. Alexander; the first article of supply that has been voted, to which I shall call the attention of the committee, is the supply for the naval service. The total amount of what has been already voted, exclusive of the sum of 390,000l for ordnance sea service, is 14,645,630l. exceeding by 2,600,000l. the amount of what was voted last year for the same service. The excess has arisen from the sum of 1,800,000l. for the expences attending the 20,000 additional seamen voted this year, and for the increase in the extraordinaries and transport service. The next article of supply is the army; there has been already voted under this head, the sum of 10,000,000l. for guards, garrison, militia, & c. I will not detain the committee by going over the different items, but there remain still two articles to be voted, the estimate of the extraordinaries, and of the expences of the volunteer corps; in the latter article there may be some small diminution, but I will take the amount at 1,100,000l. The extraordinaries I calculate to amount to the same as last year, 3,660,000l. These two items, added to the total of ten millions, make an aggregate sum, exclusively of the expence under the same head for Ireland, of 14,778,391l. which is an exceeding beyond tile last year of about 300,100l. For Ireland, under the head of army, there has been already voted the sum of 2,838,000l. To these remain to be voted the sum of 300,000l. and the same sum for the expence of volunteer corps, making the whole amount for Ireland 3,838,506l. The total amount of the votes for the army, therefore, for both countries will be
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18,6l6,89l. The total amount under the same head of service for last year, was 19,143,000l. The next service is the ordnance; the amount for England is 4,246,994l.; for Ireland 600,000l. making a total of 4,846,004l. Under the head of miscellaneous services, there has been al already voted for England the sum of 611,000l. but some further sums remain to be voted, which will make the total for England 800,000l. The miscellaneous services for Ireland, including those usual permanent grants in consequence of the Union, amount to 650,000l. making the total for the two countries, 1,450,000l. The total amount of these articles of supply, which I have enumerated is 39,559,521l. But there is another article of supply to which, though I shall not call upon the committee to vote it at present, I shall still take the liberty of requesting the attention of the house. This article is one connected with a subject of the highest importance to the interests, not only of this country, but of Europe. Gentlemen are aware that we have been engaged in a continental intercourse and correspondence, with a view to objects which we must all admit to be of the highest moment. Sir, I have felt the sincerest satisfaction at finding a general conviction on the part of this house, that the ultimate security of this country is materially and intimately connected with the security of the continent. It must be the wish of every man who hears me, that that intercourse and correspondence should be so prosecuted as to restore peace upon grounds calculated to produce and establish that ultimate security which is the object of all our wishes and all our efforts. But seeing what we do see, and knowing what we do know, it would indeed, sir, be rash and presumptuous in us to entertain an expectation that that great object can be attained without further sacrifices on our part. I will not go into details upon the subject at present; they will more properly belong to a future discussion; but feeling it to be my duty not to postpone the general supply for the service of the year, I have thought it to be of extreme importance to make such an addition to it as to enable his majesty to afford, with effect, any succours which it may be deemed necessary to afford; with that view, sir,. I have deemed it advisable not to postpone making provision for those pecuniary succours, in case they should he called for.

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I state them at 5 millions. This, added to the total amount of supply which I have had the honour of stating, will make the joint charge of the two countries, under the head supply, 44,559,521l. But the committee are aware, that from this gross sum there must be deducted two-seventeenths which Ireland is bound to pay, and two-seventeenths also for the civil list, and other charges on the consolidated fund, not relating to the public debt. The two-seventeenths of the gross amount of supply amount to 5,242,296l. and the two-seventeenths for the civil list, and the charges on the consolidated fund to 160,806l. making a total of 5,403,102l. This sum, therefore, is to be deducted from the 44,559,521l.; leaving a total of supply for G. Britain alone of 39,156,419l.—But, sir, it is also necessary to take notice of some separate charges which are to be added to that amount, and which do not belong to Ireland. There is a sum which J shall propose to vote of one million on account, towards the discharge of a debt due to the East India Company. A considerable progress has been made in the examination of the accounts; but I am inclined to think, that it will only be necessary to provide one million now. There is besides a sum, for the deficiency of the malt in 1803, amounting to 320,000l.: there is also a further sum to be added, to complete the payment of claims from America, amounting to 4l4,000l. In addition to this, there is to be added the deficiency of the sum voted last year on the growing surplus of the consolidated fund. That surplus was taken at 5 millions, but it appears that there was a considerable diminution of revenue in some articles. But, sir, when the committee consider the average produce of the revenue for the last 3 years, they will see that the diminution is of a temporary nature, and by no means so -discouraging as it may appear at first. It seems, sir, that the calculation of the growing produce of the consolidated fund last year, was made upon the former year, a year of almost unexampled produce; the diminution therefore, will appear to be greater on that account. The deficiency amounts on the whole to the sum of 2,80O,000l. making the amount of these separate charges which I have enumerated, 4,534,000l. which, added to the former sum of 39,156l, 419l. makes a grand total of supply for England alone of 43,690,419l: But for
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the convenience of gentlemen I will enumerate the different heads of

SUPPLIES.

Navy (exclusive of 390,0001. ordnance sea service)

14,645,630

Army

England

14,178,391

18,616,897

Ireland

3,38,506

Ordnance.

England

4,246,994

4,846,994

Ireland

600,000

Miscellaneous.

England

800,000

1,450,000

Ireland

650,000

39,559,521

Further extraordinary expences

5,000,000

Joint Charge, England and Ireland

44,559,521

Deduct on account of Ireland, as below

5,403,102

39,156,419

Add England separate charges.

East India Company

1,000,000

Deficiency of malt, 1803

320,000

To complete the payment of American awards.

414,000

Deficiency of 5,000,0001. voted as surplus of consolidated fund, to 5th April, 1805.

2,800,000

4,534,000

Total, England.

43,690,419

Deduct on account of Ireland, 2–17ths of the above sum of 44,559,521

5,242,296

Deduct also 2–17ths of 1,366,8511. for civil list and other charges on consolidated fund, not relating to public debt.

160,306

5,403,102

WAYS AND MEANS.
I proceed now, sir, to the Ways and Means for raising this supply; The first article is the duty on mall, and the personal estate duty, 2,750,000l. The next is the surplus of ways and means of the last year. Upon this subject, I think it necessary to give some explanation to the committee. It appears by the disposition paper which has been laid before the-house, that there is a surplus of 123,146l.—a sum of navy debt of upwards of 120;000l. There is also the sum of 931,000l. out of the vote of credit for the naval service, which is to be added to what was not called for by the end of December 1804. But as the demands upon the navy are paid in bills, and as bills encrease with the service, there is a larger sum of bills at the end of the year. The result therefore is, that there is a sum of upwards of 120,000l. not called for; 11,188,000l. was only called for, including the vote of credit of 931,000l. But still of course, though not called for, there is an increase

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of debt to that amount. But after all, there will remain a surplus of the Ways and Means of 1804, to the amount of 1,192,115l. It may here, sir, be proper to say, that the amount of the navy debt is less than it was at many periods of the former war.—The next article I proceed to is the surplus of the consolidated fund to the 5th April 1806. In considering this part of the subject, I shall pursue the plan of taking the amount of the permanent taxes for 3 years, and setting against, them the amount of the permanent charges. The total amount of the taxes for 3 years, exclusive of the years 1803 and 1804, which were years when additions were made to them, was 90,590,000l making on the average a sum of 30,199,000. for each year; m which are included the additional duties on sugars, malt and tobacco, which produced a large temporary amount, against which I set two millions of exchequer bills voted; this will make the average of each year 28,199,000. The duties imposed in 1803 and 1804 produced 1,315,000l. which will make the average 29,514,000l. But there is an addition to the consolidated fund of 1,381,000l. from Ireland, for that part of the debt with which she is charged; there are also two Other articles, which will make the whole sum to be added 2,866,000l. making the whole amount of average for each yearS2,381,000l. Against this I have only to state the sum of 28,032.000l. of permanent charge for us, that is, the interest of the debt, charges of management, & c. 26,692,000l. the Civil List, 960,000l; charges added to the consolidated fund, 380.000l. making altogether the sum I have stated of 28,032,000l. which leaves a sum of 4,349,000l. to be carried, as the probable amount of the consolidated fund. I have taken the average of 3 years, and taken also the deficiency of last year, arising from causes which I cannot but consider as temporary. It proceeded in a great measure from stock in hand having been taken in malt, spirits, tea, and wine. In the article of wine, this operated in a double capacity; for first, the duty was lowered, with a notice: that it would be encrcased at the end of the year. The consequence of this was, that persons, of course, laid in a larger stock before the increase took place. This deficiency arose, as I said, from causes in their nature temporary, and therefore I shall on a future day, propose to make the duty on wine permanent, having no reason to doubt that these fluctuations will
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cease. But after all, the total difference of the deficiency of last year, and the average of three years, is not more than 1,200,000l. Gentlemen, therefore, I am sure, will not be disposed to think this so great a fluctuation. But, sir, I shall only take credit for 4 millions, as the surplus of the consolidated fund to the 5th of April 1806.—The next article is the property tax, and the other war taxes. The war taxes were taken last year at 9 millions, but I shall take credit only for 8,300,000l. It must, sir, be a source of great satisfaction to the' country, that the war taxes are so likely to realize nearly the amount at which they were estimated. The property tax, I find, produced last year the sum of 4,600,000l. But the year 1804 has not received all its benefits, a part has not come in, and may be defrayed by Exchequer Bills; in like manner, what is granted for this year is applicable to the next year, and what may be due will remain for exchequer bills. Adding the 4,600,000l. this year to what is due, the amount under the head of property tax will be 6,300,000l I therefore take that as the amount of the property, tax for the present year. But still, sir, I feel it to be my duty, however reluctant I may be to do it, to propose to the country, (above the interest which it may be necessary to provide for the Loan), by a great exertion of its spirit and its vigour, to keep down as much as possible the accumulation, of the public debt: a system, the benefits of which are felt more and more every year, and which we had never more occasion to contemplate with satisfaction than we have at present, when we consider the terms on which we have negotiated the loan, which I arranged finally this morning; subject of course, to the approbation and ratification of this house. I shall now propose the addition of 1–4th, or 3d. in 1s. of the Property Tax, which I calculate will produce 1,150,000l. This will make the whole amount of the war taxes and property tax 15,750,000l. I addition to this I shall take credit for 300,000l by way of lottery. To this is to be added, the loan for England separately, of 20,000,000l. I will now recapitulate the different items of

WAYS AND MEANS.

Malt and personal estate duties.

£.2,750,000

War Taxes.

8,300,000

New War Taxes.

1,150,000

£.9,450,000

Property Tax

6,300,000

15,750,000

Brought over

£.18,500,000

Surplus consolidated fund to 5th April 1806.

4,000,000

Lottery

300,000

Surplus and ways and means, 1804.

1,192,115

Loan

20,000,000

Total ways and means

43,992,115

Total supplies.

43,690,419

This will he a surplus of ways and means beyond the supply of

301,696

There is a further sum for the service of Ireland, one million of which I propose to raise in Ireland, and 2½ millions an England; the 2½ millions will be on the same terms as the loan for the service of England, though the interest for that sum, as well as of the one million to be raised in Ireland, will be to be provided by Ireland.]

THE LOAN.
I have now, sir, to state to the committee the terms upon which the Loan has been negotiated. They are for every 100l. Subscribed to be given to the subscriber 150l. 3 per cents, and 22l. in the reduced, creating 172l. stock for every 100l. borrowed. In the last year 10 millions were raised in the same stock, creating a capital of 1821. stock for each 100l. borrowed we have, therefore, the satisfaction to find, that we have negotiated a loan more than double the amount at a capital less by 10 per cent, than the capital created last year. This circumstance, sir, is to be attributed, first to the prosperity of the Country, and secondly to the firmness of parliament, in consenting to furnish so large a sum within the year, and to the progress of the sinking fund, which is already found to be rapidly repaying the country for the sacrifices it has resolved to make. The interest upon the loan is less by 6s. than the interest upon the last loan. In reference to the price of the stock, I think that 18s. and a fraction beyond the price at which the stocks closed on Saturday is the bonus; to that must be added the usual allowance of five per cent, for discount on prompt payment. But. the bonus if they do not pay at once is about 3l. 1s. 6d. This bargain, I am sure, sir, will be satisfactory to the country; it will also be satisfactory to the country and to the house to hear, what I have learnt since I came into the house, that the bargain is likely to be advantageous to the contractors. We must ail be happy to hear, that what is fair and frugal to the country will he safe and advantageous to the contractors. I shall now proceed to state the additional annual charges that will be created
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by the loan and by the fund created for the payment of the loyalty holders. The interest on the 20 millions is 5l. 3s. 2d. pet cent, but including the sinking fund it will be 61. 17s. 6d. The interest on the Loan will be 1,376,000l. To this is to be added the charges of management; the 3 per cents created for loyalty holders, amounting with the interest of the loan, to 1,537,192l. For this sum it will be necessary to provide by

NEW TAXES.
I shall first propose an addition of one penny on each single letter sent by the general post; 2d. upon double letters; and 3d. on treble letters. I am not able to make any precise calculation of the amount of the tax. In the same way I shall propose an addition upon letters carried to the vicinity of London by the two penny post; the addition will be one penny. I shall also suggest the propriety of imposing an additional duty of 2d. On foreign letters. I estimate the produce of this tax at 230,000l.—The next is a tax upon salt, The addition I propose, is to add 5s. a bushel to-the 10s. now paid. On the average of 3 years, I calculate the produce of this tax at the sum of 4.90,000 l. In this article, we carry on a great export trade to Europe, and I have every reason to believe, that the foreign markets cannot be supplied on cheaper terms-by any other nation. The addition, I propose, cm the export of salt, is 6d. a bushel. I estimate the produce of this duty at 80,000 l. The next is an addition to the tax upon horses kept for pleasure, and for the purposes of husbandry. On horses kept for pleasure, I propose to add one-fifth to the present tax. It is now levied according to the numbers kept. On horse pays 40 s. duty, and I propose to add 8s. thus following that rate. This, upon the average of 2 years, will produce 110,000 l. I take the average of 2 years, because 3 years ago there was an additional tax imposed. I do not think I am likely to be in any great error in my calculation of the produce, for though an addition was made in 1802, the number of horses kept for pleasure has been increasing since. On horses kept for husbandry, I propose to make the 12 s. 6d. now paid, a pound. This, I calculate, will give a sum of 320,000 l. But I think it right to state, that upon those which only pay 2s. 6d. and not 12 s. 6d. I do not propose to lay any additional tax.—The last tax is an increase in the duty upon Legacies. My first proposal, will be to impose a small sum upon direct

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legacies on which no duty is paid now: the sum I wish is 1 per cent. Gentlemen will see that it must be difficult to estimate the amount of this tax. By a rough guess the amount of capital bequeathed in wills registered, is annually about 30 millions. Deducting 5 millions for legacies charged on land, and 5 millions collaterally, 20 millions will then remain, which, at one per cent, will give a produce of 200,000 l. The next is to supply an omission in the act, which could not be intentional. I mean the legacies charged on land. I propose to subject them to the same tax, and that I calculate will yield 100,000 l. The only other addition is on legacies to strangers in blood. I propose to raise the duty on legacies of this description from 8 to 10 per cent, which will furnish a sum of 30,000 l. I will now recapitulate, first the amount of the interest of the loan, and next of the different taxes by which I propose to meet the charge created by the loan.

RECAPITULATION.

Total amount of interest on loan, including 3 per cents. created for loyalty holders, and charges of management

£.1,537,192

Taxes proposed to meet the above charges, Post Office

£.230,000

Salt

490,000

Salt on Exportation to Europe

80,000

Pleasure Horses

110,000

Husbandry ditto

320,000

Direct Legacies

200,000

Legacies, charged on Land

100,000

Legacies, Strangers in blood

30,000

£.1,560,000

The estimated produce of the Taxes, will thus be somewhat above £. 20,000, beyond the sum Wanted.
This, sir, is the whole of the supply and ways and means for the year. I shall not detain the committee any longer at present by trespassing further upon their attention. The view I have taken of the existing state of the revenue, is such as must be sufficient to give the most encouraging view of the public affairs. In the third year of a war, following so quickly a war of such extent, duration, and expenditure, it is in the highest degree gratifying to see, that the general produce of our taxes, the terms on which we have concluded the loan, the general situation of our commerce, and the state of our revenues, keep pace with the highest expectations we could possibly have formed. I have every reason to believe that the country at large is satisfied with the principle which we
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have so happily adopted, of raising a large proportion of the supplies for the public service within the year; a principle, by the adoption of which we are enabled, not only to provide the means of maintaining the conflict ourselves, but are likewise prepared to make a manly, generous, and decisive effort, for the independence of Europe, should other nations be disposed to co-operate in so honourable a design. I shall conclude, sir, with moving, that it is the opinion of this committee, that towards raising the supply granted to his-majesty, the sum of 22½ millions be raised by annuities, whereof the, charges of 20 millions are to be defrayed on the part of G. Britain, and 2½ millions on the part of Ireland."
Mr. Fox.—It is not my intention, sir, long to detain the committee on the present occasion; but as the right hon. gent. has dwelt on the state of the continent in terms which, if I remained silent, might appear to be unexceptionable, I will trouble the house with a few observations. As far as the general sentiment of the state of the continent reaches, it has my hearty assent; but if it should be sought to pledge us by any thing which has transpired this night, as to the time when aid ought to be given to the continental powers, or any opinion as to continental alliances, in the, existing situation of this country and Europe, and considering too, the difficulty of forming any such, which the right hon. gent, himself has not disguised from usin his speech, I should, sir, for one, and I rather think the committee would be inclined to differ with the right hon. gent. In the mode of bringing this subject forward, which is of a nature unconstitutional, there is a palpable irregularity. Heretofore, every matter of vote was previously brought forward in a committee of supply, whereas, in this instance, it is first agitated in a committee of ways and means. The committee of supply is, however, the only regular place fur such a business: for the house ought, first of all, regularly to decide in a committee on the propriety of the vote, its amount, the time of granting the supply, and all the other preliminary circumstances, of the transaction. And if there was no reason for extraordinary dispatch, all this might as well have happened on the present occasion. From the course that has been taken, we might be supposed to agree to the propriety of the sum; and not even to object to an almost immediate appropria-

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tion. As the vote stands, the house might seem pledged to the grant. The 'right hon. gent, might, accordingly, on any future day, tell the house that there could be no material objection to provide for the sum; yet, most probably, we should see occasion- to object not only to the lime and manner, but also to the quantum employed. Undoubtedly, sir, I can believe that the right hon. gent. has no intention to jock up the judgment of the committee, I dare say he meant the question of the propriety of the vote to be left to the house; but as, still, the house might be thought pledged in some sense to the measure, I have thought it my duty to guard against the possibility of surprise.—With regard to the taxes, some of them appeal to me to be extremely objectionable. The tax on horses employed in husbandry is of this nature; for I know of no tax that could be more severe on a class of men more useful. Before imposing such a tax, every enquiry ought to have been instituted, as to the ability of the persons on whom it must fall to pay it, without the total ruin of their prospects. No doubt the right hon. gent. has enquired respecting this; but I apprehend that more enquiry than he can have made was necessary. This tax will assuredly be much felt in the country. I have also, sir, a great objection to the tax on salt; but as the propriety of adopting it will be discussed hereafter, I shall not now enter into it. In another view I could wish, sir, to consider these taxes. The mode of raising the taxes within the year has my approbation, in a general way. The principle, if not found to be inconvenient in its operation, is good. But here the operation of the principle cannot prove beneficent. It must operate vexatiously. All the taxes proposed to be raised are of a nature to cause the utmost inconvenience, and operate as an intolerable hardship. They are almost all of them direct taxes. Excepting the tax on salt, hardly any thing is proposed to be raised on consumption; yet the tax on consumption is probably the only legitimate tax. Nay, sir; I doubt whether hereafter we can have any taxes on consumption. When I am told that the taxes oa consumption, now subsisting, have experienced a considerable defalcation, I must be of opinion, that the sources of taxes have been impaired. Without doubt, the defalcation of 1,200,0.00l. on a revenue of 50 millions is not very alarming, provided it does not continue to en-
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crease. But when a diminution to that amount does exist, I do think there is some ground for apprehending that our, taxes on consumption haves reached, the limit, beyond which they cannot be made more productive. Another ground of objection with me is, the tax on property. The addition now proposed, I am sorry to say, will, if I am not much mistaken, lay the foundation of endless calamity to this country. One great objection to the tax on income is, that it affords a facility of getting near what we would most lament, that state in which a minister could take the property of the subject indiscriminately. This is precisely what we have to lament in regard to the tax on property, which can only operate as a facility to that deprecated end. This time 25l. per cent, are added, possibly there will be next time 25l. per cent, more put on it; after that, possibly, it will be doubled, then, possibly, trebled, until the principle is silently, but fatally established, of taking the money of the subject wherever, and however it may be found. I have also another objection to this tax, that though it is less unequal than the income tax, it is still very unequal. Landed property and property in the funds contribute fairly. But the other descriptions of property, such as arise from commerce and industry, do not pay in any proportion. If this is the case, I tremble for the consequence of going on increasing this tax. If a property tax be allowable^ even in time of war, it is only on the ground of its being regular and moderate. If this is to continue many years, and consumption, so far as yielding a revenue, is at I an end, it is likely the property tax will be considered as a land tax, or any of those other taxes that are voted annually as matters of course. I do not say that this crisis is near, God forbid it should be! If ever we come to the state when we cannot levy taxes on consumption, we shall inevitably be going the road that leads to the point at which we take from our income, where we can, and all we can, till we go to the principal, and in time take that like wise. With these impressions of the vast impolicy of such a growing tax as this, I own to you, sir, that I do from my heart wish the right hon. gent. could have devised any other measure. I never approved of this tax, nor of the principle on which it was founded, and I think that limits should be set to it which cannot be exceeded. In my mind, the taxes proposed, particularly

555
that oh salt, will be found highly exceptionable, and I do from my conscience believe, that others less oppressive must be eventually resorted to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—I do not intend, sir, to take up more than a very few moments of the time of the committee doubtless, meant the proposal respecting the vote for 5 millions to be as conditional as it has been spoken of by the hon. gent. I certainly did not mean the house to be pledged to the application of that sum, without full evidence of the policy of such a measure; only when the subject of the general ways and means for the year were before the house, I did think it right to bring before the committee the amount which I apprehended would be necessary, in case certain events should take place. Hat as to the time of applying that sum, the manner of its application, those circumstances of the state of Europe under which it may be wise and politic to apply it, on all, that the house will hereafter decide. Other motives induced me to bring the subject forward now. I thought it necessary, not to defer the vote, because nothing can take place in the state of things that has not taken place, except either the acquiescence or the refusal of the powers of the continent to enter into an alliance with us. On the other hand, it was desirable that the business should be brought forward early in the session, because from the lateness of the period at which this session commenced, if we did not provide for the vote now we should drive it later into April, when near a quarter's interest would unnecessarily attach to it, which, on the fair supposition of the funds being worse than they are now, would occasion a diminution of our means of providing for the general loan. Now, sir, as to the vote in itself, I could only say, that with regard to voting a subsidy of 5 millions for continental purposes, when the day comes for the house to take such a proposal into consideration, gentlemen will do as they please; in the state of the question at this moment they are pledged to nothing. With respect to the observations on the mode in which this subject has been brought forward to night, there is no informality at all in bringing the question forward in the committee of ways and means. It is, most certainly, not unconstitutional. I still agree with the hon. gent, as to his general doctrine, that this and similar votes ought never to be pri-
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marily moved, except in a committee of supply; but {thought it right to open the subject this night, from the considerations which I have stated above. Thus I have not only been careful to preserve the freedom of opinion on all parts of the question of subsidy, but to prevent all objection even, in point of form. For if the house should not be of opinion to allow the subsidy, the 5 millions designed for that purpose will remain to be applied to other services. With respect to this taxes, the hon. gent, wishes to reserve the more particular discussion till the bills shall be before the house; but even in the present instance, he laments that they are not on consumption. He thinks them too direct. I may think with him in a great measure, as to the superior advantages of a taxation wholly, or almost wholly, indirect. But, sir, will the hon. gent, gravely contend, that all the taxes of this night are direct taxes. On the contrary, the tax on horses kept for pleasure is a tax on use, which is in the nature of a consumption. There is another tax on horses, that on horses employed in husbandry, which keeps pace with the industry of the country, and which cannot be said to be a direct tax. The article of the post-office, that tax is growing with our commerce, and our means of general, regular, and prompt conveyance of intelligence, and all other topics or transactions of business which can be discussed by letter; a tax which attaches to a medium of universal communication, every way calculated to encrease and to render progressive the best means of national and general correspondence, which at the same time increases and renders progressive a most advantageous branch of our public revenues. These last, though not directly taxes on consumption, fall upon the articles made use of for purposes of consumption, and out of the 1,500,000l. 1,100,000l. may be fairly stated as laid upon consumption. These articles have, for the 3 last years, been subjected to many new and un avoidable burdens; but it is no slight argument in their favour, that the encrease is not attended with any diminution of the wealth, prosperity, or convenience to the country: Now sir, I will leave the committee to judge whether all this be not more a confirmation of my hypothesis,; than of the doubts and-apprehensions which the hon. gentleman entertains. With regard to direct taxes, certainly they are more inconvenient; but they are also more econo-

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mical than taxes on consumption. The best writers on the subject have said of direct taxes, that they are more inconvenient in the collection than doubtful in the principle and it would be most desirable to levy direct an indirect taxes, if peculiar circumstances did not render that far from probicable in the whole extent of a nation's wents. The objection to the property tax, I think a good deal lessened, by the consideration that it attaches most to those who have most, from which to contribute to the exigencies of the state; and as to the objection itself, that of its falling unequally on the persons whom it most reaches, I own there is an inequality yet still, as obliging persons to pay at all who paid no other, so far, I think the hon. gentleman will approve of the tax. Now, as to the increase of the tax, and the extent to Which it will go, no man can say with any certainty how much it will increase: and as to the consideration of the extent to which it will go, there is, on that ground, nothing more to be objected to this than to the horse tax the salt tax, or any other tax. If the tax is found such as the subject can pay. I see no reason why it should not, like other taxes, be augmented. Confident I am, that the more the productiveness of this tax is studied, the more will its beneficial effects be experienced. When I had first the honour of introducing the income tax, I took the sum total of the rental of the kingdom at 25 millions. The operation of this bill has however proved that the real amount is not less than 34 million, and assessments to that extent have been formed. There is no evidence whatever, that the commercial part of the kingdom do not pay their fair proportion: on the contrary, the assessments on this part of the public property, exhibits a fair and very extensive payment of the tax.
Mr. Foxdenied that the arguments for the increase of the property tax were such as applied to all taxes. For when a house tax became too high, a man might avoid it by ceasing to keep any house; but property was a thing by which there could be no limit till the whole was taken. With respect to wine, tea, or any other articles of consumption, taxation might proceed without reserve, because the individual would always have it in his power, as soon as the tax became oppressive and intolerable to him, to desist from them, He therefore preferred taxation of this sort to proceeding on dangerous principles, taking
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by little and little from, the property of the subject, till the reduction was tantamount to the risque of the whole, livery body knew how human nature was worked upon by every thing that assailed it by degrees. He remembered a fable, which, to elucidate the force of habit, related, that a woman in a certain village had a calf, which she accustomed herself to take in her arms every day, and from the gradual increase, was able to bear it when it came to be a large ox. The fable was a good one, but he did not like it in its application to the present case. For, however we might be able to bear this little calf, we could not possibly bear the great fat ox it would grow to. He, therefore Could not possibly approve of a tax that had no natural limit in itself.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought it sufficient to quiet the hon gentleman's alarms, to state, that, in order to come to the point he stated, we should continue at war 94 years.
The resolutions were then severally, put and agreed to; the house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.—Adjourned

MINUTES.
Counsel were heard at some length relative to the Scots Appeal, Bannerman v. Bannerman and others.— The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages. Among these, the Coal Factors' Indemnity bill was read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.—Mr. Alexander brought up from the commons the Greenland Whale Fishery bill, and also two private bills. These were severally read a first time.—A message was brought up from the Commons, importing that the house had granted leave to two of its members, the hon. G. L. Cole, and Sir James Stewart, to attend a committee of their lordships, if the said members thought fit.

CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.—
Lord Grenvillesaid, he had to call the attention of their lordships to a subject of very serious and weighty importance, namely, the matters alleged in charge against one of his majesty's judges in Ireland, Mr. Justice Fox, now under their lordships' consideration. He certainly should have come forward, as he now intended to do, when the subject was last under discussion, were he not prevented from attending by severe indisposition. The case was certainly of a novel description in that house, and, in every point. of view, whether as effecting the individual, the public, the character of that house, and the consideration of its being to form a precedent with respect to the exercise of the highest of all their functions, one of the greatest importance, and it behoved them lo proceed to its consideration in the most serious and deliberate manner. On this head, lie felt it his duty to submit to their lordships his ideas of what was proper and fitting to be done upon the occasion. He did not know that he should have to close what he had to say with, any regular motion. What he should offer, he had ra-
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ther their lordships would turn in theft minds, did they deem it of any weight, or receive assistance in the way of discussion from those who were more conversant in the subject than himself, either then, or any future opportunity, than come to any decision upon his propositions, that day. As the case stood, it appeared that several petitions were presented last session, complaining of misconduct on the part of one of the Irish judges in the execution of his high official duty; in considering this proceeding, it was natural to refer to the provisions of those acts of parliament, by which the judges were placed in their present situation. By these the tenor of their offices was good behaviour, they were re-moveable only on the address of both houses of parliament; the case might some before them in the way of judicial proceedings. With the House of Commons there were two options vested: the first to vote an address of removal, in which their lordships would afterwards have to consider of their concurrence; or to impeach the party before the tribunal of that house. In deciding upon the case, as it then stood before their lordships, they should be guided by two leading considerations: first, that of proceeding in the most convenient manner under the circumstances of the case; and, secondly, that such proceeding should be in a way the most analogous to the principles of the constitution. With respect to the first, it would be proper to pause, for a time sufficient to ascertain whether the other house of parliament may not originate a proceeding upon the case, as it may in point of fact? In a case like the present, where the charge was one of positive misconduct, it would be more regular, as well as. more consonant to the former practice, and more conducive to the ends of public justice, to make the application, in the first instance, to the other house, who, as he said before, were invested with the twofold option of proceeding, either by the way of address or impeachment. With respect lo this, it was seriously incumbent upon their lordships to consider of the contingent possibility of the case ultimately coming before them in their judicial capacity, in the shape of an impeachment; in such a case they would have to sit as a court of justice upon that which, in the way now proposed, they should have tried by previous examination; the consequences of this were too obvious to expatiate

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upon. In that view of the question, particularly, it would be preferable to let the application, in the first instance, be made to that branch of the legislature which, constitutionally, forms the grand inquest of the nation. By proceeding in the line at present chalked out, the ordinary situation of the two houses would, most probably, be inverted; as, possibly, they may be so placed as to appear, to a certain degree, as prosecutors before the house of commons. In this view of the question, he thought there could be little difference of opinion. He was decidedly of opinion it was preferable to let the matter originate with the other house. It would be for the house to consider, whether or not, in the mode proposed, a degree of wrong might not be offered, either to the interests of the parties, those of justice, or to the rules prescribed by the constitution. In pursuing the course he recommended, they did not in the least renounce those powers which the acts of parliament vested in them. He again pressed the general importance of the subject to their lordships' minds; and these considerations attending upon the case being entirely new, on this ground, he rather wished the house would come to no decision that night, but take time to consider the case in all its views and bearings. In this view, and with reference to what he had said of the probability of the other house taking it up, he thought it would be proper to adjourn the. sitting of the committee, which stood for to-morrow, for six weeks or two months, or rather, that no particular time should be fixed for its sitting; this to be done so as that the parties might understand that the. delay was for no other purpose than to afford them an opportunity of addressing, themselves to the other house of parliament; this delay, in fact, would not operate as an impediment to, nor a denial of justice; for, at the expiration of the period, the parties would have just the same opportunity of redress with that house as at present; however, in order to give effect to what he had laid down, and to give their lordships time to consider what he had suggested, he should take the liberty of moving, that the order for the committee sitting to-morrow be discharged, and a similar order made for Thursday.
Lord Hawkesburysaid, he differed widely in opinion from the noble baron, in what he had advanced upon the subject,
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in every point of view, either with reference to the individual concerned, the interests of the administration of justice in Ireland, or to the public at large. He thought the investigation should be proceeded with in the way already agreed upon, and with as little delay as the circumstances of the case would admit. Their lordships would, have to consider the situation in which the ease stood before them. It had been brought forward by a noble member of that house towards the close of the last session. After some discussion, it was adjourned to the present session, when there arose some doubts as to the proper course to be taken the result of their lordships' deliberations on that point was, that it was desirable, before Mr. Justice Fox should be called upon to answer the matters alleged, that some enquiry should, be made into the case, and some prima facie evidence offered, with a view to establish a ground for subsequent proceeding. A farther delay was then acceded to, in order to afford; time to enable witnesses to come from Ireland. That last interval of delay being elapsed, he was surprised to hear on this day, for the first time, new doubts thrown out as to the propriety of what had been done, and a considerable further delay pressed for. Upon the whole, he was decidedly of opinion, the most regular and expedient way would be, to proceed, in the line already resolved on. With respect to the constitutional consideration of the case, he saw no objection whatever against the matter as given in that house. He, was aware of the respective legal right of either house to originate things of the, kind; yet there were considerations which, more properly, and, with a view to general practice and usage, more particularly fell within the province of the one house than of the other. Matters of commerce, revenue, and finance, lay more particularly with the Commons. On the other hand, there were several matters which, by the same rule, it lay with their lordships to originate. Such, particularly, were cases of divorce bills; certain considerations with respect to the law, in deciding upon which, they could have the assistance of the learned judges, who occasionally attended for the purpose; and also that of the heads of some of the courts of justice, who were usually members of that house. He was convinced, the ends of justice would be more satisfactorily answered, by suffering the business to

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proceed in its present course; not only in this, but in point of expedition, it was infinitely preferable. In any mode of proceeding, the concurrence, or the co-operation of that house would be eventually necessary. As the case stood, the mode recommended by the noble lord would be only productive of further and even injurious delay. The commons could adopt no middle course between a vote of their house, either for redress or impeachment; in the pending interval the character of the individual would remain at stake, and in some degree the administration of justice in Ireland suspended, for, by their single vote, the judicial functions of the individual would not be entirely taken away. Upon the whole, though he differed entirely from the noble baron in his proposition, yet he was not adverse to deferring the farther consideration of the case for a very short time, in order to afford their lordships an opportunity of turning over in their minds what had been respectively thrown out. His mind, however, upon the point was made up; and he should have seriously to recommend to the house to proceed in the course already resolved upon, and with as little farther delay as possible.
The Earl of Carlislemade a few observations in support of what had fallen from his noble friend. He pressed the consideration, that their lordships, in the mode proposed, would have to proceed as a grand jury, in an exparte way, and upon a case which possibly might afterwards Come before them as judges; and he contended, that, on the score of expedition, the line of conduct recommended by his noble friend was by far the most preferable.
The Lord Chancellorquitted the woolsack, and directed his observations chiefly to the situation in which the question stood and the most eligible mode of proceeding In point of form; he declined delivering his sentiments upon the subject till a future opportunity, but he seemed to prefer proceeding with the investigation, as the house had already determined. There was one point which had transpired in the course of that evening's discussion which he was happy to observe, and for which he had to express his thanks to noble lords; nay, even his gratitude; namely, the apparent disposition to act upon the opportunities which the constitution afforded them, of having recourse to the assistance, when necessary, of the law lords, and to render their attendance effectual.
Lord Grenvillespoke in explanation, and expressed his astonishment at the way in which the noble secretary of state seemed to consider what had fallen from him. He thought his conduct, on the occasion, required no apology; it was the bounden duty of every member of that house to come forward and otter his opinion, in every stage of a business, and on every opportunity, as to what he thought might' best favour the ends of public justice. He was prevented by indisposition from attending when the subject was last discussed. No considerations of delay or inconvenience should militate against the paramount principles and more important ends of public justice. They should consider the novelty of the case before them, and that they were about to set a precedent to future ages, on a point of the last importance in the exercise of all their functions.
Lord Hawkesburyexplained. As far as his recollection served him, he had said nothing which ought to induce astonishment on the part of the noble baron; he regretted the cause of his inability to attend when the subject was last discussed; but a considerable interval had since elapsed, in which the noble lord had an opportunity of coming forward. He had so far conceded as to agree to the noble lord's proposition in the first instance, but he had to deprecate all unnecessary delays in the investigation of the case.
The Duke of Clarenceexpressed his satisfaction at what had fallen from the noble lord who had opened the discussion; but not having attended the former discussion upon the subject, he confessed himself rather at a loss to know the precise situation in which the case then stood, and begged any noble and learned lord present would inform him.
The Lord Chancellorquitted the woolsack, and explained generally to his R. H, that the object of the committee, which had been ordered to sit, was to investigate the truth of matters alleged, so far as to ascertain whether a sufficient ground appeared to warrant their lordships in calling upon the accused to answer, or to entertain a motion for an address upon the occasion. The witnesses were to be examined upon oath before the committee, as to the truth of matters alleged, but to what extent it was for the committee to determine.—The question was then put upon Lord Grenville's motion, which was accordingly ordered,

IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.—
Lord Kingcalled to the recollection of their lordships what had fallen from him on a former evening, relative to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, and the great discretionary power vested in the crown in consequence. It being in agitation to renew the measure, as one of very questionable importance, he thought that adequate reasons should be assigned for it. With that view, he called for the information which was stated in his motion on a former night. He expressed his hope that the noble secretary of state had, upon further consideration, altered his opinion upon the point, and would agree to the production of the information required. His lordship then proposed his motion, similar lo that offered on a former night; the leading point was, "that an account of the conditions on which such persons as were liberated from confinement under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, were discharged, be laid before the house."
Lord Hawkesburyreplied, that the more he had considered the point, the more confirmed he was in his objections to such a proceeding. The noble secretary then repeated his observations on the former occasion, as to the dangerous tendency, in various points of view, of making the disclosure required; this, he thought, so obviously the case, that he did not wish to take up their lordships' time in further descanting upon the subject.
Lord Grenvillecould not see any objection to that part of the motion; he thought the condition upon which these persons were discharged was a piece of information which it was necessary, should be laid before parliament, in order that they might see how the powers given by former suspension acts had been used, particularly when they should probably be shortly called upon to renew that suspension. He could not conceive that any mischief could arise from the disclosure of secret information mentioned by the noble secretary of state, as the conditions of their discharge must be known to the persons liberated, and if this part of the motion was refused it would follow that information was granted to those persons who had probably been arrested upon suspicion of treason, which was denied to parliament.
The Marquis of Sligodeclared his entire opposition to that part of the motion,
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as local circumstances rendered it highly inexpedient that such information should be disclosed.—After a few words from Lord King, that part of his lordship's motion in question was withdrawn.—Adjourned to Monday.