Sitting of 1 February 1805

MINUTES.
Mr. Bouverie moved for a new writ for a commissioner to serve in parliament for Burntisland, Kirkaldy, and Dysart, in Scotland, in the room of sir J. Erskine, bart, now earl of Rosslyn.—Mr. S. Bourne for another, for Newark, in the room of sir T. M. Sutton, since appointed a baron of the exchequer; a third for Totness, in Devonshire, in the room of V. Gibbs, esq. since appointed the king's solicitor general; and a fourth in the room of R. Dallas, esq. since appointed chief justice of Chester.—The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, the chancellor of the exchequer moved, that the sum of 3,000,0001. by exchequer bills, be raised for the service Of the present year; which being agreed to, he gave notice that he should propose a speedy day for taking that resolution into consideration. After which the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. —Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the malt duty and pen-s on bills. The amendments were agreed to, and the bills ordered to be read a 3d time to-morrow.—Mr.Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the quarantine act. The resolutions were agreed to, and
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a new bill ordered to be brought in pursuant thereto.—The indemnity bill was read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed to a committee of the whole house to-morrow.

MIDDLESEX ELECTION.—
Lord Marshamrose and said, that he stated on a former day, his intention of submitting to the house, this day, the manner in which he would proceed upon this subject. It was then his intention, he said, to examine witnesses at the bar on the part of the late sheriffs. But since that time, he understood those gent. had altered their mind, and did not mean to call any witnesses. In order, therefore, to give the house time to form the fullest opinion upon the evidence before them, on this subject, he trusted it would not be deemed inconvenient, if he moved to postpone the farther consideration of the business till Tuesday next; conceiving as he did, and as he was convinced the house must, that a deliberate decision would be an object much more desirable than any expedition that could be accomplished by deciding this night. He therefore moved, "that the farther proceedings on this subject be postponed till Tuesday."
Mr. Foxrose, not he said to object to the day proposed, but to state, in a few words, his own opinion as to the mode of proceeding suggested by the noble lord. The noble lord had said it was not the intention to examine any witnesses at the bar on this subject: but he trusted, whenever that house was called on to exercise a jurisdiction, a criminal jurisdiction too, that it would found its decisions on evidence which it had itself heard, and not merely upon the evidence heard by others elsewhere. If, indeed, as he understood, from the noble lord's intimation, the late sheriffs had no objection to admit the evidence before a committee against them, certainly there could be no objection, on the part of the house, to accept that evidence as part of the grounds for its own decisions. But not calling evidence as to any thing already proved before a committee, and calling no evidence to their exculpation now, were, in his own mind, two very distinct considerations. He was decidedly of opinion, that if any matters had come to their knowledge for their own exculpation, even since the decision of the committee, it would be perfectly open for them to bring forward such evidence.
Lord Marshamanswered, that when he

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last mentioned this business to the house, he supposed it to be the intention of the sheriffs to examine witnesses, in their exculpation, at the bar: but having had an interview with their counsel since, he understood it to be their determination not to examine any witnesses at all. The object of his motion to-night, therefore, was to give those gent. full time to make up their minds as to the nature of their ultimate defence, that they might have no cause whatever to complain of being taken by surprise.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, hot to make any objection to the noble lord's motion, nor to delay the house now by any argument upon the subject itself. He rose merely to express his sentiments in the first instance, respecting a principle avowed by the hon. gent, ever against him (Mr. Fox), namely, that the house, when called on to exercise its jurisdiction on this subject, should not be satisfied with the evidence taken elsewhere, but should examine evidence for its own satisfaction. Against such a principle he begged to protest, in the first instance, as contrary to the established usage of parliament, always before, and ever since the passing of Mr. Grenville's act in the year 1770: Previously to that time, it was the constant usage of the house, in deciding upon matters respecting contested elections, to form its judgment upon evidence taken before its' committees, and not to examine evidence to the same points at its bar. The Grenville act created the first alteration in the law and usage of parliament upon this head; and it must be recollected, that a. principal alteration made by that act was, that the committees for investigating such questions must be chosen by ballot, must examine all evidence on oath, and must themselves be sworn to act and decide justly, to the best of their opinion. The house then surely, would not be less inclined to accept the evidence taken before a committee so solemnly bound, now, than they would be to accept evidence before a committee not so bound, previously to the passing of the Grenville act. The precedents only in which the house did act in any degree at all different from this principle, were the Shoreham case, the Liskeard, and the Great Grimsby. In the Cricklade case some such proceeding was proposed, and the house adjourned the consideration of that case from time to time, in order to
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search for precedents, but came to no final decision. His motive for troubling the house at all, on the present occasion, was au earnest wish to uphold the character and privileges of parliament, and to guard against any innovation which, might tend to alter its established forms of proceeding, or diminish those powers it had always enjoyed and exercised. He had no objection to concur in a motion, having for its object to give those gent. further time till Tuesday, to make up their minds; but his object was not so much the accommodation of individuals, as to maintain the privileges of the house itself.
Mr. Francisthought, that evidence, ought, in every judicial proceeding, to be heard before the judges. This would be a great satisfaction to the house; and be was at present inclined to think that gent, could not, in honour and justice, decide upon a penal case without hearing evidence at the bar. He hoped, therefore, that before Tuesday, the house would deeply reflect upon a question which, independent of the present case, was in itself of so much importance.—The order, of the day was then postponed till Tuesday next.

MINUTES.
Counsel were heard, at some length relative to the Scots appeal, Hamilton and others v. Geddes. Their lordships deferred the further consideration of the case till to-morrow.—It was ordered, on the motion of the bishop of Exeter, that the lord bishop of Rochester be requested to preach before their lordships, at the collegiate church of Westminster, on Wednesday the 20th instant, being the day appointed, by his maj.'s, proclamation, for a general fast.—The bills upon the table, all of a private or local description, were forwarded in their respective stages.—On Lord Hawkesbury's moving, that this house do now adjourn,

WAR WITH SPAIN.—
Earl Darnleyrose, not, he said, to oppose the motion, but merely to state what he conceived to

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be the reason for the noble lord's proposing, that the house should meet to-morrow, namely, that the additional papers relative to the question with Spain, were expected then to be ready to be laid upon the table. In stating that he did not mean to oppose the motion, he begged it to be understood, that he could not at all reconcile the conduct of the noble lord, and of his colleagues in office, in now wishing to push this matter to so early a discussion, to the effect even of taking precedence of another business, of which he (lord D.) had given notice, and which undoubtedly yielded in interest to none, with their previous proceedings and ideas on this subject. All the correspondence, all the papers at all connected with the Spanish question, were in their power and knowledge, and in the power and knowledge of none else. They ought at the beginning to have laid on the table every paper which was at all essential to the forming of a fair judgment on the question. They did lay such papers on the table, and noble lords on the same side of the house with himself made no objection to them, nor demanded any farther production. They were willing to have formed their judgment on the question, on the evidence which ministers themselves had thought sufficient. Now, however, ministers viewed the matter differently, and they had themselves moved for additional papers. To this his 1dp. said he could have no objection; but he must be forgiven for saying, that the conduct of noble lords on the other side, in his respect, did not correspond with that desire for a speedy discussion of the business which they had been so eager to profess: at all events, he could not see on what grounds their own delay, or want of preparation, ought to be esteemed a reason for postponing the motion on another important subject of which he had formerly given notice. He rather conceived the conduct of noble lords in administration, as a servile imitation of the proceedings in another house, which it was unbecoming the dignity of that house to follow, unless on most substantial and necessary grounds.
Lord Mulgraveexpressed his surprise at some of the observations which fell from the noble earl. With respect, however, to the papers and documents in question, he would first say, that they were more voluminous than he had formerly occasion to apprehend, snaking a
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quantity of not less than 70 printed pages. Every exertion was used to get the papers ready for presentation that day, but it was found impracticable; and it was wished the house should meet to-morrow, for the purpose of laying the papers on the table with the earliest possible opportunity. With respect to the blame which the noble earl seemed to impute to him, for his conduct on the occasion, he must say, he thought no blame could fairly be imputed to him, either for what he had done in the first instance, or in the subsequent proceedings. He had certainly, according to what he had professed, laid every information before the house, which he thought necessary, for the due understanding of the subject. He had professed his anxious wish to have the subject fully and completely before parliament and the public, and on that principle he acted. The idea of producing additional information, it should be recollected, did not originate with him; it was deemed, upon maturer consideration of the topics, to be necessary by other persons, and in other quarters. In conformity, therefore, with the wish to have every degree of information which might be deemed necessary before parliament and the public, it was, that he had proposed the production of the additional documents; and this with as little delay as possible: in which view, and with reference to an early discussion of, and decision upon, the subject, it was proposed to meet to-morrow. Such an attack upon ministers as that proceeding from the noble earl, he had never yet heard of. He had heard of attacks upon ministers, for withholding due information in the first instance, and pertinaciously refusing it afterwards; but never, till that day, did he hear them blamed for wishing to give every possible information upon a. subject. He had heard of attacks upon ministers, for wishing to urge a premature discussion of particular topics; but never, till then, did he hear any ministers arraigned for postponing the day, in order to afford a full and ample interval for deliberation. With respect to the noble earl's idea, that a wish existed with his maj.'s present ministers, to induce a servile imitation, on the part of that house, of the proceedings of the other house of parliament, it was entirely unfounded, Did such a desire manifest itself in an obvious wish to give their lordships as full and complete information upon the

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subject in question, as that which was proposed to be given to the other house? Did a line of proceeding, obviously intended to enable that house to discuss and decide upon the subject, on at least as early a day as the other house, argue a wish to make their lordships the servile imitators and followers of that house? Certainly not. So much for the assertion of the noble earl on that head, and the wish to meet to-morrow being in strict conformity to every principle laid down by his majesty's ministers in that house for their conduct; with respect to the subject in question, he did not see how any noble lord could consistently object to the proceeding.
Earl Darnleysaid, he did not, nor could he ever have intended to complain, that too much information had been afforded. He would say, however, that it was the duty of ministers to have known what papers were requisite for the discussion of the question; and that they should have come prepared with them in the first instance.—Adjowned.