Sitting of 2 April 1805

MINUTES.
Lord John Thynnetook the oaths and his seat on his re-election for Bath.—Mr. Creevey gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for some further documents relative to the balances in the hands of the late hon. Keith Stuart.—Lord Brome brought in a bill for improving the port of Ipswich in Suffolk, which was read a first time.—Dr. Duigenan gave, notice, that he would to-morrow move for leave to bring in a bill for the amendment of Queen Anne's bounty act, in Ireland.—Mr. S. Bourne, pursuant to order, presented an account of the application of the surplus revenue of the Isle of Man.—Ordered to be printed.—The innkeepers bill went through a committee, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow.—The customs duty bill, the American treaty bill, and the Bengal council bill, were read a third time and passed.

IRISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on this bill.
Sir John Newportsaid, that having already fully stated to the house his Opinion on this subject, and having found that the sense of the house was for passing this bill, he should not now take up their time with recapitulating the arguments he had before offered; he rose now merely for the purpose of suggesting to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer a measure that thought would have the most important effect in increasing the disposable force of the empire from Ireland, or rather in encouraging those soldiers, who were not now disposable, to become so. The measure he now begged leave most earnestly to recommend, was to make such a provision for the wives and children of those who volunteered, as would at least remove the principal objection which now stands in the way of their volunteering. The wives of the soldiers in the Irish militia and army of reserve now receive an allowance of two shillings a week, and formerly received four; but, from the moment any of these soldiers volunteered for general service, this allowance ceased. If this great discouragement was removed, he was sure they would be much more ready to enter the regular army. At present, the misery that was entailed on Ireland, under the system which now prevails, was most dreadful. The face of the country was covered with the wives and children of soldiers begging their bread. There was hardly ever any considerable embarkation of troops from Portsmouth or Plymouth, that from 800 to 1,000 soldiers' wives were not turned loose to beg their way as well as they could to their own country. As most of them landed at the nearest Irish port of Cork and Waterford, he had often been an eye-witness of the extent of the evil which he now wished to be redressed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerallowed that the suggestion of the hon. bart. was of the utmost importance, and deserved the most serious consideration. He was not then prepared to give any opinion on the subject, but he perceived that many difficulties stood in the way of the adoption of this suggestion. He was aware of the distress which was often felt in Ireland on account of there being no established system of poor laws in that country as there is in this; but he did not know how parliament could grant a specific allowance to the families of Irish soldiers, winch was not granted to the families of the soldiers of the rest of the united Kingdom, He
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thought the hon. bart. was however mistaken in one point, as he was pretty sure there was an allowance given at the tune of every embarkation, to carry the soldiers' wives home. Notwithstanding the difficulty that he saw in the adoption of the suggestion, he should certainly give it his most serious consideration.
Sir John Newportsaid in explanation, that the allowance given to soldiers' wives on embarkation was a guinea and a half; this might be barely sufficient to carry them to the nearest Irish port, but they landed completely destitute, and were obliged immediately to have recourse to begging.
Colonel Bagwellconfirmed the statement of the hon. bart. as to the great degree of misery which the wives of not only the Irish soldiers in the regular army, but even in the militia and army of reserve experienced. During the last war, four shillings a week was allowed to the wives of the militia, which was sufficient to keep them from the necessity of begging; but since it was reduced to two, that allowance had been insufficient. He thought there could be no greater encouragement to volunteering from the militia, than granting some provision to the families of the volunteers. —The house then went into a committee on the bill, when some trifling alterations were agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned.

MINUTES.
Mr. Quarme Mr. Quarme, the yeoman usher of the black rod, appeared at the bar, and summoned the house to attend in the house of lords, to hear the royal assent given by commission to several public and private bills. The Speaker, on his return, acquainted the house, that he had been in the house of peers, and heard the royal assent given by commission to the Newfoundland Judicature bill, the St. Sepulchre's Workhouse bill, and several private bills.— A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill, without any amendment.—Mr. Kemp from the Commissioners of Excise, presented at the bar of the house, an account or estimate of all duties of Excise in Great Britain charged and outstanding on the 5th of January 1805, and on the 5th of January 1806, respectively; distinguishing the several articles, and temporary from permanent duties, so far as relate to the Revenue of Excise in England, which was ordered to lie upon the table, and to be printed.— On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the Property Tax bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow, the right hon. gent. stating that the committal to-morrow would be only pro formâ, and that it was intended to have the bill recommitted on the 21st inst.—The Tea Duty bill, and the Tobacco Duty bill, were severally read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday, the 14th instant.—The house, in a committee, went through the Loan bill, and the report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.—Mr. Vansittart moved, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of Ways and Means; in which he moved, that a sum not exceeding 3 millions, be granted to his majesty by a loan on Exchequer bills, towards the supply of the present year; which was agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow. —Mr. Secretary Windham rose, and apologized to the house, for being under the necessity of postponing the bringing forward his motion, relating to the Military Establishments of the country, pursuant to the notice he had given, on account of the severe indisposition of his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox). He hoped, however, the delay would not be longer than to-morrow. He had just left his right hon. friend before he came down do the house, who had told that he found
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himself considerably better than he was yesterday, and that he had great hopes of being able to attend to-morrow. The Speaker asked whether the right hon. secretary intended to fix his motion for to-morrow? To which question Mr. Windham answered, yes. General Tarleton then said, there was a motion of his, to the same purport, which stood for to-morrow, and which was entitled to priority, but that he would readily wave it. The motion of Mr. Windham was accordingly fixed for to-morrow. —Sir J. Duckworth's Annuity bill, was brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—Dr. Duigenan brought up the report of the Irish First Fruits bill, which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—On the order of the day being read for the house to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, it was, on the motion of sir J. Newport, ordered, that the several petitions which were presented to the house upon the 7th day of March last, and the 1st day of this instant April, relative to the English Protestant Schools in Ireland; the Foundling Hospital; the Hibernian Marine Society; the Hibernian School for Soldiers' Children; the Female Orphan House ; the Association for discountenancing Vice; the Westmorland Lock Hospital; the House of Industry; the Fever Hospital; the Lying-in Hospital; the Royal College of Surgeons; the Dublin Society for promoting Husbandry and other useful Arts; the Farming Society; the Corporation for paving, cleansing, and lighting the City of Dublin; the Commissioners for making wide and convenient Streets in Dublin; the Roman Catholic Seminary; the Parish Church of Saint Andrew; the Hospital founded by Dr. Richard Steevens; and the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, be referred to the said committee. The house then went into a Committee of Supply, in which a variety of sums, were voted, according to annual custom, towards the support of the above charitable institutions in Ireland, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow —Sir J. Newport moved, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider the acts which imposed a duty on Dwelling Houses, in Ireland; which being done, the hon. baronet said, there had been a duty of 3s. imposed in the last session of parliament, on Dwelling Houses in Ireland, which had been found oppressive on a great

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number of the inhabitants, and had given considerable dissatisfaction, as there were many houses that did not pay at all, and as the duty was very trifling, it was thought necessary to repeal such part of the said act. He therefore moved, that the duty of 3s. on certain Dwelling Houses in Ireland, do cease and determine. Mr. J. Fitzgerald said, he had foretold, when the duty alluded to was proposed, in the last session, the great dissatisfaction it would create in Ireland, and had, therefore, strenuously opposed it. He was very glad, therefore, to find, that his majesty's present ministers had determined to satisfy the minds of the people, by easing them of so irksome a burthen. The motion was then agreed to, and the report ordered to be received tomorrow.—The house then went into a committee of the whole house, to take into consideration the acts relative to Irish Bank Notes; in which, sir J. Newport stated, that by the act of the 43d of his majesty, the bank of Ireland had been placed, as to the issue of bank notes, nearly on the same footing with that of England; but, that by the 44th of the king, that provision had been repealed, and it was now thought expedient it should be revived; he therefore moved, that the act of the 43d of the king, relative to the issue of bank notes, in Ireland, repealed by the act of the 44th of his majesty, be revived and amended. The resolution was agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Hawthorne brought up the report on the Ordnance Treasurer's bill, which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—Mr. C. Wynne brought up Copies of the Correspondence between the Irish Government and the Dublin Paving Board, pursuant to order; which were ordered to lie on the table.—He afterwards brought up the return of the Deputy Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, relative to the return of sir John Newport, bart. for the county of the city of Waterford, which stated, that the said return was received at the Office of the Clerk of the Crown, Dublin, on the 24th of March last, and was, by him, delivered into the General Post-Office, in Dublin, on the said 24th day of March, to be transmitted to the Crown-Office in England. Lord H. Petty, in the absence of his right hon. friend, Mr. Fox, gave notice, that he would, to-morrow, move, that the sheriff of the county of Waterford do attend at the bar of the house.—On the motion of lord Henry Petty, sir
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John Newport was added to the committee for examining the joint accounts between Great Britain and Ireland.—Mr. Rose gave notice of his intention to bring forward, to-morrow, a motion of the utmost consequence with regard to the intercourse of America with our West-India colonies. This motion he was urged to press, in consequence of what he heard was going forward elsewhere, combined with a negociation of great importance which was known to be on the tapis.—The idea of enabling the governors of the West-India islands to suspend our navigation laws during the war, struck him to be a project so alarming, that he felt it his duty at once to move for the production of such documents as he knew were calculated to shew, not only the inexpediency, but the danger of such a proceeding.

MINUTES.
Counsel were farther heard relative to the Scotch appeal, Cathcart v. the earl of Cassilis, viz. Mr. Adam as leading counsel for the respondent.—The bills upon the table were forwarded in their several stages.—Lord Hawkesbury moved the first, reading of the militia enlisting bill, and that the bill be printed, which were ordered accordingly. His lordship then moved that the said bill be read a second time on Thursday next, and that the lords be summoned for that day.—Ordered.

STANDING ORDER.
Lord Mulgravegave notice, that he Should, on Monday next, move to have the Order relative to the house resolving into a committee on the motion of any noble peer, taken into consideration. To this he was principally induced, by what took place last night; and, on account of the constructions which were put upon the order in question, in the course of the debate. Such an order was, he thought, inconsistent with the dignity of their lordships' proceedings, and might be productive of the highest inconvenience, admitting it to empower any lord at his pleasure, thereby to constitute himself a majority of the house; and, even when the most important public business might be regularly under Consideration, to oblige the house to go into a committee. An order construed so as to operate in that way, was so objectionable in every point of view, that it should not be suffered to remain a moment longer than was necessary. He concluded by moving that the lords be summoned for Monday next.
Earl Spencerobserved, that though the noble secretary had not stated the nature of his intended, motion, yet it might, in some degree, be conjectured. As to the degree of inconvenience which that or any other standing order might induce, he should not then offer an opinion. He, however, could not avoid remarking, that the noble lord's idea, that "under the operation, of the order alluded to, any peer might constitute himself, in effect, a majority of the house," would be an argu-

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ment for the abrogation of every standing order in the book.
Lord Mulgraveacknowledged, he had not been sufficiently explicit in terms, as to the nature of his intended motion; but, when he had expressed his disapprobation of the order, in so marked a manner, he thought no doubt could arise as to his intention. However, he should now give a specific notice, that it was his intention to move, on Monday next, that the order in question be expunged.
The Lord Chancellormade some observations in support of what fell from his noble friend, relative to the effects and consequences of the order adverted to. He was adverse from its being considered as a standing order; its import and wording being different from all others of that description. In the way in which it was construed by some noble lords last night, it was the most inconsistent thing imaginable; for, in the event of the usual notice being given for its suspension, on any particular occasion, how could they know but any noble lord might, on the very day it was appointed to be considered, move the house to resolve into a committee? a proceeding which might be urged any moment while the order existed. An additional objection against the order was its general impracticability; because, were the order literally and fully enforced, their lordships, while in such committee, were required to sit, each in their proper places, according to their ranks and degrees; a proceeding which, in that new house, their lordships would find it rather difficult to carry into effect.
Earl Spencerobserved that, circumstanced as their lordships were at present, the proceeding adverted to would be totally impracticable. He recollected, that some time since, a commitee had been appointed to settle and arrange the proper seats for the respective orders of the peerage in that house; but no report had yet been made upon the subject; that committee should be referred to. In the house in which they formerly sat, the respective places were regularly arranged; every peer knew his proper place when it was necessary he should sit in it; but; in the present house, that being not yet settled, such a proceeding was impossible.
The Lord Chancellorspoke in explanation, and slightly adverted to the inconveniencies which must sometimes arise from too literal an enforcement of the or-
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ders; alluding to what had taken place last night, and its being contended that a standing order admitted of no debate, but that it should be immediately acted upon; he adverted to the inconsistency of such an idea, which went to prevent a noble and learned friend of his from demonstrating that it was impossible to comply, with the order in question.
Lord Mulgraveperfectly concurred in What had been thrown out by his noble friend on the woolsack. With respect to their lordships' being required by the order to sit in their Proper places respectively; he conceived it to mean that the barons should sit together on certain benches, the earls on other distinct benches, the dukes on others, and so on. This consideration was with him an additionally strong and forcible objection to the order, which may render it necessary that their lordships should, as at the word of command, arrange themselves in a species of military array, or fall into their respective ranks, like soldiers on the parade: but setting any thing like a ludicrous consideration of such a proceeding aside, it militated as well as other serious and more important objections, against the order.—The question was put, and their lordships ordered to be summoned for Monday next.—Adjourned.

MINUTES.
Lord Walsinghammoved for an Address to his Majesty to request a Copy of the Second Report of the Commissioners appointed to revise and digest the Civil Affairs of the Navy. Ordered.—The Irish Militia Service bill was read a second time, and committed for Monday the 14th inst.—The royal assent was given by Commission to the Expiring Laws bill and three private bills. The Commissioners were the lord chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.—The Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill was read a third time and passed, and a message sent to the commons to acquaint them therewith.—A petition was presented from lord vise. Hawarden, claiming the Right of Voting at the Election for Representative Peers of Ireland, which was referred to the Committee of Privileges.—Adjourned to the 14th inst.