Sitting of 23 March 1804

MINUTES.
The House having, pursuant to summons, proceeded to the House of Lords, the Speaker on their return stated, that the royal assent had been given, by commission, to the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Irish Duties Bill, the Irish Countervailing Duties Bill, the Irish Malt Bill, Boydell's Lottery Bill, and the Port of London Bill.—Mr. Vansittart presented "An Account of the ordinary Revenues and Extraordinary Resources constituting the Public Income of Great Britain, for the year ending the 5th Jan. 1804," which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Irving, Inspector-General of Imports and Exports, presented, "An Account of the Value of all Imports into, and Exports from, Great Britain, for 18 years, ending 5th Jan. 1804," which were ordered to he on the table and to be printed.—Mr. Kemp, from the Commissioners of Excise presented, "An Account of the Produce of the Permanent Taxes imposed in the years 1802 and 3, during the years ending 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804, distinguishing each quarter, so far as relates to the Revenue of Excise in

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England," which was ordered to he on the table, and to be printed.—The Inn-keepers' Allowance Bill was read a third time and passed.—The House having considered, in a committee, the Act of the 42d of the King, respecting the regulation of the linen manufacture, the Chairman obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend so much of the said act as relates to the Irish linen manufacture, particularly with respect to flax-seed.—Mr. Porter, from the Commissioners of the Customs, presented, "An Account of the Balances and Arrears due from the Collectors of the Customs in England on the 5th of Jan. 1804, as far as the same can be made out," which was ordered to lie on the table and to be printed.—The report of the Irish Militia Families Bill was brought up.

LORD HOOD'S CLAIM.—
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that a copy of the proceedings of the Privy Council, respecting the ships captured at Toulon, in the course of the last war, had been some time lying on the table of the House, and he gave notice of his intention of moving in the Committee of Supply on Monday next, for a grant of a sum to carry into effect the recommendation of the Lords of the Treasury, in order that the sum should be distributed among the captors of those prizes.—The right hon. gent, afterwards rose again, and observed that finding he was mistaken in supposing the report of the proceedings of the Privy Council reflecting the captures at Toulon, to which he had before alluded, were printed, said, he should propose the printing of this document; and, in order to give time to the House to examine it, should withdraw his notice for Monday, and defer until Wednesday the motion in the Committee of Supply.
Mr. Johnstonethought this a subject of so much importance, and one so likely to give rise to considerable difference of opinion, that the proposed motion of the right hon. gent, ought to be postponed till alter the recess, in order to give time for consideration, and that the discussion and attendance should be full and satisfactory.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that from the nature of this business, all unnecessary delay-should be avoided; and he was certain, that did the hon. member know the extreme anxiety felt by the seamen and others interested in the subject, he would himself be among the first to press that it should be decided on as soon as possible.
Mr. Rosewas not aware, before this day, that any such papers as those alluded to by the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, were on the table of the House; nor was he either that any such claim had ever been preferred by those engaged in taking ships, &c. at Toulon, although he was long in office after that event. The subject appeared to him to be of much importance, and he was therefore inclined to agree with the proposition for farther time to consider it than the right hon. gent, had mentioned.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, in proof of the urgency of the case, and the propriety of expedition, that many of the persons interested in the discussion only wailed the result, to set off for different stations in the service of their country. If, however, it should appear that the attendance should be thin on Wednesday, and that the proposition was not, therefore, likely to receive an ample discussion, he certainly should comply with the wish expressed, for putting it off till after the holidays.—After a few words from Mr. Rose and Mr. G. Vansittart, the conversation dropped.

IRISH HALF-PAY OFFICERS.—
Lord A. Hamiltonrose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a "Copy of any orders which may have been issued by the Lords of his Majesty's treasury in Ireland since the union, affecting the half pay of officers on the Irish establishment, when employed in England."—The noble Lord stated his object to be, to ascertain whether the indulgence of paying the revenues of the civil officers of the Irish government in this country at par, was extended to any other persons, and particularly whether the meritorious persons who were the subjects of his motion experienced this mark of favour.
Mr. Corrysaid, he was not aware of the existence of any order such as the noble Lord alluded to, but yet he had no objection to the motion, nor to answer any question which might be put by the noble Lord, or any other member, in order to put the House in possession of full and satisfactory information with respect to the affairs of Ireland.—The motion was agreed to,

PROPERTY TAX ACT.—
Mr. Vansittartmoved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so much of the Property Tax Act, as requires attornies, agents, and factors, to

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retain and pay the duties chargeable upon public annuities.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that this measure was proposed in consequence of a wish expressed by the bankers, and other persons interested, and from a full persuasion of the justice of their request. Leave was given; the bill was afterwards brought in by Mr. Vansittart, read a first and second time, and committed for Monday.

LOYALTY LOAN.—
Mr. Dent,in adverting to this subject, observed, that an opinion had been given by a professional man, different from those of the Attorney and Solicitor General. The subject was of very considerable importance, as it involved a capital of 20,250,000 l. and if the period of payment was to be deferred till April 1805, and any event, such as a peace, should take place, causing a great rise in the price of the funds, a very material consideration would arise out of it, as the loyalty loan could not then rise above par. It was important that the question respecting the time of payment should be settled, as he understood that several holders of the loan, to the amount of upwards of 2,000,000 l. had given notice that they expected to be paid on the 10th of April next.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the subject divided itself into two heads: the first a question of law, and the next of equity. With respect to the question of law, the law officers of the crown had given an opinion different to that supported by the hon. gent. As to the question of equity, whilst he agreed in the importance of the subject, he should certainly pay every attention to it, and endeavour to bring the point, respecting which difficulties had arisen, to a decision as soon as possible.
Mr. Dentobserved, that something should be done before the 10th day of April next.

AYLESBURY ELECTION.—
The report of the committee on the Aylesbury election was taken into consideration. The first resolution, charging Mr. Bent with bribery, was agreed to. The second, relative to the system of corruption, was left open to the House to found any measure upon. Upon coming to the resolution in which the name of John Rawbone is inserted among those implicated in the charge of bribery,
The Marquis of Titchfieldrose, and
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stating his opinion that sufficient proof did not appear to sustain the charge against this man, he moved that his name should be omitted.
Mr. C. Wynnesaid, that he was a member of the committee appointed to try this case, in which it appeared that John Raw-bone was present at a table, when another person received a bribe, and this in consequence of a previous invitation. The committee, therefore, felt it their duty to report his name, leaving it to the House to decide whether his presence upon the occasion alluded to should be considered an assent to the act, and a participation of the guilt.
The Master of the Rollsthought that it would be extremely wrong, upon the grounds stated by the hon. member, to institute any such prosecution against the subject of this motion, as that which took place in the Hchuster case.—The motion was agreed to.
Sir G. Cornwallrose, agreeably to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent bribery and corruption in the election of representatives for the borough of Aylesbury. The hon. Baronet observed upon the scandalous system of corruption which prevailed at Aylesbury during the last election. A number of the voters not being satisfied with two candidates, deputed some of their body to search for a third, whom they found out, and from whom they received a certain sum of money, as a reward for their support at the election. This had appeared in evidence before the committee, and he, as their chairman, had been appointed by the almost unanimous voice of the members, not to move for the disqualification of the voters concerned in the bribery, nor for their prosecution, but to move for leave to bring in a bill for preventing of bribery and corruption in the election of members to serve in Parliament for the borough of Aylesbury.
The Marquis of Titchfieldconceived the object of the bill to be to throw open the borough, and as such he highly disapproved of it. He had no objection to any proceeding against the guilty persons, but he trusted that Parliament would never consent to infringe the rights of above 300 electors for this borough, merely upon the ground that, according to the report of the committee, of which the hon. Baronet was chairman, 50 voters had been implicated in bribery. He hoped that no such

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attempt, at disqualification would ever be countenanced in that House; and feeling that the idea ought not to be entertained, he should vote against the motion.
Mr. C. Wynnebegged to set his noble friend right, as the corruption was much more extensive than he had stated; for although the names of only 50 persons were mentioned, not less than 200 electors were proved to have accepted bribes. This case was, indeed, so distinguished for open profligacy, that he had never heard of any thing at all like it. It was as unblushing as if the bellman had been sent round the town to offer a bribe to any elector that would accept it; and those bribes were proved to have been distributed by the supporters of each of the contending parties. He did not, therefore, conceive that any grounds could exist to render it more strongly incumbent on the legislature to interpose.
Mr. Rosesaid, that from the depositions of Wilson, a man who was very well disposed to evade the facts, as the House was aware, it appeared that above 200 of the electors of this borough had accepted bribes; that they were all collected in a room, on the table of which there was at one end a bowl of punch, and at the other a bowl of guineas, from which each man had his douceur; that of the 270 who supported Mr. Bent, only 50 votes were free votes. This was evidence sufficient to convict those, men before a jury: and, with such evidence before gent, could they, he would ask, consistently with their own character, or indeed with common decency, consent to reject a bill which had for its object to prevent the recurrence of similar corruption.
Sir John Newportstated, that the letter of invitation to the third candidate was signed by 200 electors, each of whom covenanted for and received his bribe. It was the custom among the electors of this borough to demand Christmas boxes of their representatives, and, to enforce the payment of them, they say, that they shall always have a third candidate at the election, in order to enhance their own value. They had become discontented with the old candidates at the last election, and they contrived to find a third, of whom they made use to plunder the other two and himself also. It appeared, that in addition to the other guilt proved against those gent, of Aylesbury, that many of them went to each of the opposing parties,
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and promised their support. As they could not vote for more than two candidates, they of course meant to trick the third. When the third candidate arrived at Aylesbury, pursuant to the invitation already referred to, his carriage was dragged through the town, and at the house he stopped, all the voters inclined to sell their support to him were assembled, none being admitted but persons qualified to vote, and each received two guineas. The hon. Baronet, after commenting upon the turpitude of such conduct, observed, that in his judgment the House should be happy to avail itself of such cases to throw open those boroughs, and thus to advance towards that pure representation of the people, which some gents, had proposed to attain by other means that were not consonant with the free spirit of our constitution. This appeared to him to be the method by which Parliament might purify the representation of the people in that House; and he declared, therefore, that he never gave a vote with more sincere satisfaction than that he felt in supporting the motion under discussion,
Mr. Nicholas Calvertapproved of the motion, as he considered this to be one of those jobbing boroughs, all of which he should be happy to see thrown open. There any man, who had a few thousands to spend, might, however unknown to, or unconnected with the place, or however exceptionable in character, contrive, by a judicious application of that sum, to obtain his election. In such boroughs, from what he heard, he was disposed to believe, that there was generally an understanding between the partizans of the old and new candidates, the policy of both of whom it always was, and for obvious reasons, to create a contest. The only practicable way, as it struck him, of removing such scandalous artifices, was by opening these boroughs.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was enough for him to know that gross bribery had been committed in the borough of Aylesbury; that a select committee had, upon grave investigation, decided that such was the case, and had in consequence reported such proceedings to the House. He must think it incumbent upon him to vote in support of a measure, in the first instance, which purported to go to the prevention of a repetition of such practices. But he did not mean it to be understood, that by such vote he held

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himself pledged to the support of this or that measure: on the contrary, he positively and unequivocally declared, that he did not bind himself to any thing more than the support of a bill with a title such as the present, reserving to himself to express his opinion, whatever it might be, without any restraint whatever, in an ulterior stage of the business. Indeed, he confessed that there was some degree of' doubt upon his mind with respect to the present case, as Robert Dupree, Esq, the witting member, had a charge laid against him, which was different in the case of the Cricklade and Shoreham elections. With the resolutions before them, which the House had received, he thought that they must see the propriety of admitting the bill which was then proposed.
Mr. Hurstdeclared, in the most distinct terms, that he thought it becoming the dignity of the House that they should adopt some measure for the assertion of its own rights, and for the preservation of the freedom of election, in an instance where they were so flagrantly violated. But he could not, at the same time, refrain from expressing his disapprobation of a principle which had been laid down in the speech of the hon. gent, who said that the number of corrupt voters was not necessary to be looked to, for that he thought it was sufficient that the existence of, bribery within the borough was proved, in order to make him see the necessity of adopting a parliamentary regulation, to prevent the recurrence of such a case hereafter. Now he was of opinion, that the bribery or corruption of any small portion of the inhabitants of any place could by no means warrant the House in taking upon them to interfere with the manner of voting within that district. In the present case, it was manifest that a regular system of corruption had been adopted and acted upon to a very great extent. It was, therefore, an act which the House owed to itself and to the constitution, to receive a bill for the future regulation of elections in such a place, at least so far as to prevent a repetition of such disgraceful practices. As to the internal merits of the bill, how far its contents went to prevent the evil complained of, or whether it might not go too far, he did not mean to inquire in the present stage of the business, but should declare his sentiments, unfettered by any pledge or promise, at a future period, in the same manner as the right hon. the
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Chancellor of the Exchequer had declared that it was his intention to do. The cases of the Shoreham and the Cricklade elections he thought by no means similar to the present.
The Master of the Rollsexpressed himself glad that no steps were suggested to be taken by the House to prosecute the individuals implicated, as he should consider such a measure inexpedient. By Agreeing to the introduction of the bill, he did not pledge himself as to its principle; respecting which he should reserve himself for the second reading.
Mr. C. Wynneadverted to the cases of Cricklade and Shoreham, where he said the elections had been conducted with the greatest purity since those boroughs had been thrown open.
Sir R. Buxtonobserved, that at the time when the Attorney General was instructed to proceed in the case of the borough of Cricklade, it was one of the most corrupt within the kingdom; since it had been made an open borough, it was as free and pure as any county in G. Britain. He was no friend to innovation; but he believed that if the House was to take into its consideration to amend the state of the borough representation throughout the kingdom, it would contribute much to the honour of the House, and the stability of our system.—The question was put, any leave granted to bring in the bill.
Sir G. Cornwallmoved that a new writ should not be issued for the election of a member for the borough of Aylesbury until the 27th of April.—Ordered.

MINUTES.
The royal assent was given by commission to seventeen pub-
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lic and private bills: among the former were, the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Irish Revenue Bill, the Irish Countervailing Duties, the Irish Malt Duty, the Hides and Tallow Importation, the Sugar Warehousing, the Neutral Ships, the Rape Seed Oil Importation; and among the latter, Boydell's Picture Lottery Bill, the Rochdale Canal Subscription, and three Naturalization Bills. The Lords Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, Lord Hawkesbury, and Lord Walsingllam.—Lord Ashburton was sworn and took his seat on attaining Ids majority.—Counsel were heard in continuation, relative to the Scotch Appeal, Fleming v. Abercromby.—The Volunteer Consolidation Bill was brought up from, the Commons by Mr. Tierney.

VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.—
Lord Hawkesburymoved the first reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill; accordingly the title and breviate of the bill was read by the Lord Chancellor.—The noble Secretary then moved, that the bill be printed for the use of their Lordships. He observed, at the same time, that the forms of the House did not allow the second reading of a bill, to be regularly moved until the prints were before the House. However, as there was every probability that the prints would be ready for delivery to-morrow, he should now give notice, that on Monday it was his intention to move for the second reading of the bill.
Earl Spencerrose, not, he said, for the purpose of opposing the measure, or to throw any difficulties in the way of his Majesty's government in the present circumstances, but merely to suggest to Ministers and to the House the consideration, whether a bill of the peculiar nature and importance as that, the heads of which had just been read, a measure, the principle of which was not only so very important, but in itself embracing such a variety of detailed provisions, could be maturely considered so far as to make up their Lordships minds, as to that species of discussion required at a second reading, in the very short interval between the delivery of the bill and Monday next: he thought it could not. He deprecated the idea of any improper haste being used in the progress of the bill in that House. Their Lordships would recollect the extraordinary length of time it was under consideration in another place, the repeated dis-

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cussions the measure had undergone, and the variety of amendments which had been made to it. It was therefore incumbent on their Lordships to give the measure a full and mature consideration in all its branches and details; the measure, in the present circumstances, was one of the greatest importance: the character and dignity of the House were implicated in the consideration: they should evince to the public their determination to give the measure a full consideration, and that no improper haste should be used on the part of their Lordships in passing the bill.—Under these impressions, he begged leave to suggest to the noble Secretary, that Tuesday should be the earliest day fixed upon for the second reading.
Lord Hawkesburyobserved, it was by no means the wish of his Majesty's ministers to use any improper haste in the progress of the bill; on the contrary, it was their wish that the measure should undergo a full and thorough investigation. At the same time he could not avoid observing to the noble earl, that the detailed and repeated discussions the bill had already received, rendered its contents pretty well known to the public, and perhaps to a great number of their Lordships; however, though his wish was, that a measure of such peculiar importance in the present circumstances on the country, should receive as little delay as possible, under what had been suggested, he had no objection to take Tuesday as the day for his moving the second reading.
Earl Fitzwilliammade a few observations, principally in support of what fell from the noble earl near him (Spencer); he urged the propriety of giving the bill a full and mature consideration in that house, he adverted to the deliberate discussions it had undergone in the other House of Parliament, and the many alterations and amendments it had been found necessary to make in the measure as originally proposed to that House.
Earl Darnleyexpressed his coincidence in a great deal of what fell from the noble earls on his side of the House; but at the same time he must avow his opinion, that in the present circumstances of the country, the bill should be delayed as little as possible in its progress. No lord could more highly estimate the character and dignity of that House than himself: there were certain regulations in the bill which it would be expedient to carry into effect as
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soon as possible. He was however an advocate for a full and thorough discussion of the measure; on that ground he had no objection to the proposed delay; but if he thought there was a probability of their Lordships being able adequately to discuss the measure previous to the intended Recess, he should have no objection to the day first named by the noble Secretary of State.
Lord Hawkesbury,in explanation, assured the noble lords there was no intention of the part of ministers to hurry the progress of the measure. He was equally aware of the various and complicated nature of the measure, as of its peculiar importance; it certainly embraced many detailed considerations, each of which involved a principle in itself; it was then right that the whole should be fully and maturely considered, and if such could not be done previous to the recess, they had no particular desire to urge its passing before that period.
Lord Harrowbymade a variety of observations, not only on the bill itself, but on a great part of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers relative thereto. In one point of view, it was his wish that the bill should receive the sanction of the legislature as speedily as possible, as it Contained, in particular, one provision of which he approved, namely, that which held out a bounty for the encouragement of volunteers to perfect themselves in military discipline and exercise. This part of the bill, when he considered the critical circumstances, with respect to pending invasion, in order to be of real service, should be carried into effect as speedily as possible, for on a short approaching interval muck may depend. The noble lord then adverted to the delays which he conceived ministers had suffered to take place with respect to the measure in question, and censured their conduct on that head. Much time had been lost. This was the only measure they brought forward for the defence of the country, and as little time should be lost as possible. He deprecated the idea of losing any time in consideration of a recess, but if such a proceeding was resolved upon, he hoped it would be for the shortest period possible, not extending beyond the Monday, which would follow the second reading of the bill. His Lordship then alluded to some parts of the bill, which, from their questionable nature, as well as on account of the conduct of

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ministers in these respects, he deemed to require mature consideration and thorough investigation on the part of their lordships.
The Earl of Carnarvonwarmly deprecated every idea of hurrying the progress of a bill of such importance as the present through the House: an attempt of the kind militated against the letter and spirit of certain standing orders. He knew there were certain precedents for speedily pushing bills through the House, but he hoped they would not be acted upon; it was the duty of the House fully and maturely to consider and investigate the measure. He fully agreed in what had been stated by a noble earl of the nature of the bill; it was one of an intricate kind, and should not be hastily proceeded with: its effects on, and connexion with other measures proposed by ministers in the last session, should be also considered, as well as the length of time which they suffered to elapse before they came forward with the bill in question. The noble earl, after animadverting on the conduct of ministers in these respects, contended for the propriety of discussing the measure in the most cautious and deliberate manner.
The Lord Chancellorquitted the woolsack, and delivered his sentiments upon the occasion. He adverted to the irregular turn which the debate had taken, but which to observe upon, as he then felt it proper, he must necessarily fall into the same irregularity himself. The question he conceived was, whether the bill should be read a second time on Tuesday; and in considering this, the noble and learned lord commented on what had fallen from a noble earl then near him, and from a noble lord who had spoken rather at length on the opposite side of the House: the inconsistency of whose arguments, as operating either in favour of delay, or on the contrary, for expedition, were pointedly remarked upon by his Lordship.—With his noble friend he agreed in the propriety of maturely and deliberately considering the measure before them; it was irregular in point of form, as well as an erroneous way of considering the case, to go upon an assumption of what the House in its wisdom may resolve upon with respect to the ensuing period of recess. He seemed to think the latter day mentioned, the preferable of the two, as, in common with several of their Lordships, he knew but very little of the detailed provisions of
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the bill, save from that description of them which his duty on the occasion of the first reading of the bill rendered it necessary he should read to the House; and he was fully convinced of the propriety of duly and thoroughly discussing the measure in question.
Earl Darnleyspoke in explanation, and Lord Minto seemed inclined to speak, when.
Lord Walsinghamdeemed it incumbent on him to remind their Lordships of the obvious irregularity of the present discussion. There was, strictly speaking, no question before the House, as in point of form, the second reading of the bill could not regularly be moved for, until the prints were before their Lordships.—The correctness of this remark was acknowledged by the Lord Chancellor; and Lord Hawkesbury, in the course of a short explanation as to the point of form, reminded their Lordships, that what the Noble Lord had observed, had been conceived by him in the first instance. He then observed that it was his intention to move for the second reading of the bill, on Tuesday.