Sitting of 6 March 1804

Preamble
[MINUTES]—
Sir John Andersonbrought up a bill for making provision for widening the entrance into the City of London by way of Temple Bar, for erecting buildings at Snow-hill, and for raising further sums of money on the credit of the Orphan's Fund, for that purpose. Read a first and ordered to be read a second time.—The Scotch creditors bill was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be carried to the lords on the motion of Mr. Win. Dundas.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for the House to go into a committee of the whole House, to consider of the Irish revenue acts, as far as they related to Salt, Hops, and Coals. The House being in a committee accordingly, Mr. Corry briefly stated, that the duty on Salt which was now to be proposed, was precisely the same without any variation whatever, as he had formerly staled when that subject was before the House. The other objects were those of Hops and Coals. He then moved his resolutions, which were put and carried on the subject of Salt: after which he moved two other resolutions for a duty of 7s. 7d. Irish currency, upon every barrel of Irish Malt; and a countervaling duty to the same amount, on every barrel of malt imported into Ireland, from the 24th of March 1S04, to the 24th of March 1805, which passed.—The House being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Foster moved, "That there be laid before the House an account of the existing duties now payable on the several articles contained in the resolutions of the committee of the whole House, reported on the 3d of Match instant, specifying each article on the several acts, &c. and the amount payable under each act, &c." Which was ordered accordingly.—Mr. Corry then moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Irish duty bill. The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a committee of the whole House on Thursday next.—Mr. Corry

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then moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Irish countervailing duty bill. The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a committee of the whole House on Thursday next.—The royal marine mutiny bill was read a third time, and passed on the motion of Mr. Vansittart.—Mr. Creevey gave notice that to-morrow week he should make a motion for papers respecting the war in Ceylon.—Mr. Francis also gave notice of a motion on the same day, relative to the war in India.

NAVY BOARD.—
Sir William Elfordobserved, that he had some time ago, before the last recess, given notice that he should, after the recess, bring forward a motion that would have reference to the Navy Board; But since he gave that notice, various circumstances came to his knowledge, which he apprehended he could not introduce under the form of the motion as he originally intended to make it. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had also given notice he intended to bring forward a proposition relative to the naval defence of this country. He therefore wished to wait to find what the nature of that proposition was, for that tinder the discussion of it, he might possibly introduce what he had formerly intended upon this matter; he would wait for that opportunity; and if he could not then to what he intended, he should give another notice of the time he should bring it forward.

VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Mr. Secretary Yorkemoved the recommittal of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. The House resolved itself into a committee, in which a variety of amendments were made. Some of the most prominent of the amendment are the following.—An amendment proposed by Mr. Pitt, for an alteration in the expression in one of the exemption clauses, from 24 days service, to be returned in three muster-rolls, at a distance of four months between each, to 24 days service within the year, without specifying the particular time, as a necessary claim to exemption.
Mr. Pittproposed another amendment, the purport of which was, that the lord, lieutenants of counties, or other persons who have the regulation of the ballots for the militia and other forces, should be instructed to apportion the quotas of men to be raised in each district with a view to the number of volunteers that were raised within the district, and not by the circuitous mode of drawing off the population, then admitting of exemptions on account of service in the volunteer corps, and recurring to another
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ballot to complete the number, as is at present the mode of drawing for such forces. After a great deal of conversation, it was agreed that the point should be further discussed on the next report of the bill.—Upon the clause which states that volunteers who shall be discharged from neglect or another cause, shall be liable to the operation of the ballot towards the other services, a good deal of conversation took place, in the course of which Mr. Secretary Yorke observed, that any volunteer who served till the end of the war was meant to be secured from any ballot which might then take place.
Lord Castlereaghthrew out for the consideration of members more conversant with the progress of balloting, than he was, how any volunteer who might resign or be discharged, and who might have been previously balloted, and exempted in consequence of his being a member of a volunteer corps, was to disposed of; that is to say, whether such person was to go to the proportion of the parish to which he might originally belong, or was to become the property of the country? This was a case which according to his judgment, ought to be decided on by Parliament.—After a few words from Sir W. Geary, the words "or other misbehaviour," as proposed by Mr. G. Vansittart were added to the clause.
On the clause that such adjutants, Serjeants, corporals, and drummers belonging to volunteer corps as receive permanent pay, should be subject to martial law, and to be tried by courts martial, a very long and desultory conversation arose.
Mr. Rosewas of opinion, that no such courts martial could be regularly instituted, unless when the volunteers should be on permanent duty, because the order for executing any courts martial must be issued by the commander in chief, who could have no control over the volunteers until called out into actual service.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, that the clause was framed on the same principle as that which prevailed in the militia, among whom the description of persons who were alluded to in the clause wire subject to be tried by martial law, even when the militia were in a disembodied state.
Mr. Rosestated, that he had heard it. observed that courts martial could not he legally instituted to try any persons belonging to the militia when they were in a disembodied state.
Mr. Secretary Yorkereferred the right hon. gent, to the 42 d of his Majesty, where the contrary was expressly enacted.
To a question, whether it was intended to

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make any allowance to drill Serjeants of volunteer infantry?
Mr. Secretary Yorkereplied, that this subject was under consideration, and that he was not yet able to say how the allowance, which it was deemed expedient 10 make to the description of persons alluded to, was to be provided for; whether by an assessment upon the parish or united parishes to which the volunteer corps might belong, by a general county rate, or in any other, or what way.
Mr. Tierneyproposed, that the armourers of volunteer corps should also be subject to he tried by martial law.—To this amendment Mr. C. Wynne and Mr. Curwen objected, and upon the recommendation of Mr. Yorke, the consideration was postponed for the present.
Mr. Raineasked, whether it was intended that this clause should comprehend such Serjeants, &c. as were paid by the corns to which they belonged, or by their commanding officers, as well as those who received their pay from the public purse?
Mr. Secretary Yorkeobserved, that the clause was not new, but perfectly the same as that which had been enacted in the 42d of the King.
Mr. C. Wynnesaid, that if the law was old it was rather surprising that he should have been told at the office of the right hon. gent., to which he had some lime since occasion to resort, respecting the conduct of a certain drill Serjeant who had actually attempted to stir up mutiny in a volunteer corps, that such drill serjeant could not be tried by martial law.
Mr. Secretary Yorkerecollected the case alluded to by die hon. gent., and that the reason of the reply which was given upon that case was, that the drill serjeant, respecting whom the complaint was preferred, did not belong to the corps, but was merely employed to instruct it.
Sir W. Gearyhere took occasion to observe, that it was improper that any person in arms should have regular pay from any other source than that of government.
Upon the clause being read, that any volunteer who should not come forward in the event of invasion or rebellion, should be treated as a deserter,
Lord Ossulstoneproposed the addition of these words, "when she same shall be signified" by his Majesty's proclamation.—This amendment was adopted.
Mr. Pittthen brought forward his promised proposition, that the volunteers should be invited to go on permanent duty, for the purpose of improvement, for any time from
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seven to 21 days, and that during such period, they should be subject to martial law. Of this he conceived that no volunteer could complain, nor could any objection be advanced against it, as it was to be recollected that it was at the option of every volunteer to engage in such duty or not. The right hon. gent, then proposed the addition of these words, "or on being placed on permanent duty for any stated number of days, for the purpose of improvement in military exercise, with the concurrence of his Majesty."—Agreed to.
To a question from Mr. Pitt as to the intention of ministers respecting the bounty to be allowed to volunteers going on permanent duty, whether such bounty was to be deducted from the marching money fixed for the event of invasion or rebellion, or to be an additional grant, no answer was given, and the right hon. gent, announced his purpose of bringing forward the subject again at a proper time.
When the clause was read which relates to the appointment of general officers to command volunteer corps when called into actual service,
Colonel Elfordobjected to it as an improper interference with the royal prerogative, which could, in the event of invasion, call his subjects to arms, and place them under the command of such officers as it might be his pleasure to appoint.
Mr. Secretary Yorkestated, that an exemption from such an operation of the royal prerogative, was one of the conditions upon which the volunteers had originally engaged to serve.
General Tarletontook occasion to observe, that, as he had been informed, there was a difference of opinion between the right hon. gent, who brought this measure forward, and most of the colonel commandants of the volunteer corps, as to some points of law by which the volunteer system was supposed to be regulated; if that was so, the better way would be for that right hon. gent, to state his opinion upon the law to the committee, in order that the matter might be settled, and all disagreements done away.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, that the law upon the subject to which the hon. general had referred, was not at all doubtful. When out on actual invasion, the volunteers, like all other parts of our military force, would be under the command of general officers of the line, but not unless they were out. They had, however, consented in many instances to be in some measure under the command of officers of the

723
line. They might be said to be so when they were inspected, and they were wise in so submitting, for it was a measure without which they could not be effectually improved; but when they were so assembled they were under the command of a general officer of the line.
General Tarletonsaid, that the opinion he had upon that subject he should carry with him out of the House to night but if what he had suggested could be of any service to the country, he should be glad of it. When lie came to speak upon this subject hereafter, he should have an opportunity of praising or of commenting upon this system, as it should appear to him to be right.
Mr. Pittobserved upon one of (he clauses, it was there proposed to put volunteers under the command of general officers when they were called out, which they would be in considerable numbers in the various districts of this country, for he knew of nothing so likely to improve them materially in their military exercise. Now, considering the different districts in which they were dispersed, as many of them should be, and he hoped they would he, put on permanent duty as much as possible, they should, therefore, be under the command of an officer of the line. The general rule was, that they were to be put under the command only of a general officer; now, considering the variety of cases in which they might be out, and the different districts all at once, it might be impossible to provide for each of them a general officer to be their commander; in which case it might be extremely convenient to put them under the very respectable command of inspecting officers, who were below the rank of general officers, and, therefore, he should move that the words of the clause should run thus, "such general or other field officer."
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, it was perfectly clear that lieut. generals were general officers according to military definition; and this was a point which depended wholly on his Majesty, for he might at his pleasure commission his adjutants general officers, for his Majesty might, beyond all doubt, create the office of adjutant general; there was such an officer now in France. No doubt his Majesty might give such a rank, and to as many adjutants as his Majesty might think proper, and then they would all take the rank of adj. general, and be to all intents and purposes general officers, and that this was within the general prerogative of the crown, was a matter not
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to be doubted. Viewing this point as he did, he was persuaded that the words now proposed, "or other field officers," should not be inserted in this clause, for then a lieut. col. might be placed under an inferior field officer. He was, however, perfectly aware that the volunteers should have the benefit of the assistance of officers who were not general officers.—With respect to the inspecting field officers who have not the rank of lieut. col., the assistance from them would be as assistance from the adj. general, which would be that of giving advice and opinion; but if advisable to give adjutants command, many of them, to his knowledge, were officers of excellent qualifications, and his Majesty might give them rank; but he was afraid that if words of this kind were inserted, considerable difficulties would arise on account of the point of rank, because many officers might thus be put under the command of those who were inferior to them in rank, which might create unpleasant feelings in the service. He expressed a wish that this matter might take the course pointed out for it, as he conceived, in the system of the militia.
Lord Castlereaghseemed at first rather inclined to think the words proposed were necessary, but on hearing his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke) again, his lordship declared himself satisfied that the words were unnecessary.
Mr. Pittagreed that there was no difficulty whatever when the volunteers were called out for actual service; (hat was removed by what was said by the Secretary of State, but what he wanted to apply his amendment to was, that of the volunteers being called out, not for actual service, but permanent duty for awhile, in order to improve them in their military exercise. The question was, whether there were sufficient numbers of general officers to command all the volunteers who might assemble and remain on permanent duty, in ail the dispersed districts of the country? Now, he thought there would be a great difficulty to find general officers of this sort for them all, and, therefore, the words were necessary for the purpose of admitting other field officers as well as general officers to such commands: and it did not appear to him that there would be any inconvenience in placing them under either the command of a general or other field officer, ranking above the command of the corps; this would not. create any difficulty. And this species of military superintendence

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was very material during the time that the volunteers were out, for the purpose of military improvement,
Mr. C. Wynnewas anxious, that military officers of experience should be appointed to direct the operations of the volunteers; the necessity of attending to this must be obvious, for whatever knowledge the gent, who had command in the militia might have of military business (and he believed that most commanders of that body were well acquainted with that subject), he could very safely say, that the volunteer officers were extremely deficient. For himself he would confess, that although a col. in the volunteers, he knew nothing at all of military matters, and he had no doubt that there were many gents, in the House whose candour would urge them to make the same confession, and with equal truth.
Lord William Russellexpressed his wish that the conditions upon which the volunteers had originally engaged their services, should not in the smallest instance be violated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed to postpone the further consideration of this amendment until the report should be brought up, in order that inquiries should be made, how far the adoption of it would be consistent with strict military principle. This, he thought the more necessary, as be understood that a doubt existed among some militia colonels whether they should, in any case, be placed under the command of any military officer below the rank of a general; and the adoption of this amendment, he apprehended, would tend to confirm that doubt, which ought the more to be guarded against, as it was desirable to apply the same principle to the militia and the volunteers.—The amendment was accordingly postponed.
On the clause td enable commanding officers of volunteer corps to discharge volunteers for non-attendance, &c,
Mr. Roseproposed to leave out these words, "and each volunteer officer shall report the name of the person so discharged to the deputy lieutenants of the district, and to the parish assessor, in order that he may be liable to the ballot, &c." The right hon. member stated his reason for this motion to be, that the case was expressly provided for in another part of the bill, and of course, in this instance, superfluous.
Mr. Lascelleswished that the causes to justify a volunteer's discharge from his corps should be more specifically and accurately described, or otherwise the com-
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manding officer might do wrong, and render himself liable to an action at law.
Mr. Tierneycould not hear of a private's bringing an action against his commanding officer, or taking any step to compel him to state his reasons for any proceeding he might think it necessary to take for the good order and discipline of his corps.
Mr. Pitthoped that it was not likely any officer, who had the honour of commanding a volunteer corps would abuse his power. If any volunteer should be refractory, he would rather recommend an endeavour to reclaim him than instantaneous expulsion but that however painful, it must, if necessary, be of course resorted to. Of the clause before the committee, he altogether disapproved, as unnecessary, because he conceived that without it the commanding officer of a volunteer corps had the power of discharging any volunteer he thought proper.
Mr. Secretary Yorkedefended the policy of the clause, and in proof of its necessity mentioned, that he understood that several corps had, on their first formation, entered into resolutions, that no member should be dismissed without the consent of the majority of the corps. They therefore held an opinion, that it was highly advisable that the authoritative voice of Parliament should be sent forth to do away such doubts as might exist respecting the power of volunteer commanders to discharge any volunteer who should misbehave.
Mr. Foxsaid, that the nature of the misbehaviour which would justify the discharge of a volunteer, ought, as well for the satisfaction of the commander, as for the regulation of the men to be very clearly described.
Mr. Pittconceived, that the power of the commanding officers ought, in this case, to be quite discretionary and unlimited.
Mr. Secretary Yorkecould not agree to the idea that commanders should be allowed to discharge men at their own option without any adequate cause; such a privilege was not allowed the commander of the regular army or the militia, and the principle would be mischievous to admit, particularly, in case the volunteers should be called into actual service, and a capricious volunteer commander might in such a case deprive the country of many effective men, and even in peace it might give room to great injustice, as it would afford the opportunity of rendering volunteers who had gone through all the routine of discipline liable to be dismissed at the will of an officer, and possibly with a view to deprive them of their exemptions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid

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not approve of the total abrogation of the clause, neither did his of the opinion that the causes of a volunteer's discharge were fully stated. He thought that the inefficiency of a man was a good ground for discharging him, as well as his misbehaviour.
Mr. Foxconsidered that any limit without a remedy was but idle words; for it was not mentioned how, if the limit were transgressed, the discharged volunteer was to obtain redress against his officer, and certainly a dismissal under the present circumstances might be a great grievance to a volunteer.
Mr. Pitt,of all modes of redress, disapproved of that alluded to in the course of the debate, namely, an appeal to a court of law. It would be ridiculous to think of a court of law engaged in investigating the causes which should justify the dismissal of a man from a military corps, and the expense would be too much to encounter. He would rather have such appeals from discharged volunteers to be decided upon in a summary way by the deputy lieutenants of the county.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought, that no mistake could take place in regard to the expressions. The misbehaviour or improper conduct expressed in the clause must relate to their behaviour as members of the corps. There might be a court of inquiry to which any appeal might be made, and upon the report of which a determination might be formed.
Rainewas of opinion, that the reasons of dismissal ought to be specifically stated in every instance, in order that the aggrieved might be able to apply for redress.
Mr. Foxobserved, that misbehaviour was by no means comprehensive enough to be assigned as a general reason. Insufficiency, incapability to do the duty, from whatever cause it proceeded, might be a very sufficient reason, and carried along with it this advantage, if specified, to the person dismissed, that it would be a protection to him against the the militia and army of reserve.
The question being put, on the motion of Mr. Addington, that after the word "misbehaviour" in the original clause, the words "or other sufficient reasons" should be inserted, a long and desultory conversation took place, in which Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Bragge, Mr. Rose, Mr. Geary, General Tarleton, Mr. Sec. Yorke and others were successively engaged.
Mr. Secretary Yorkeconcluded from what he had heard, that it would not be agreeable JO give the commanding officer of volunteer corps an unlimited power. But a court of inquiry he thought, to which appeals might
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be made, would be attended with advantages. He rather wished the clause to stand as it was, with the amendment only proposed by his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), in order that it might be farther considered between this and the report.
Mr. Foxwished to know what the words proposed as an amendment meant, or who was to judge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of the reasons that might be assigned. If you wish to give the commanding officer, said the hon. gent., an unlimited power, say so at once. Let us have, no more disputes with the volunteers. Let us be no longer under the necessity of consulting the opinions of the Attorney General in order to ascertain what line of conduct we shall adopt with the volunteers. It you wish them to be under the control of their commanding officers, and to be dismissed at their discretion, why are you afraid to tell them so; or I if the contrary is your wish, why not define in intelligible terms, the powers you wish to repose in their commanding officers?
The Attorney Generalthought, that too I much had been already conceded. The measure which the clause proposed, instead of being a fraud, as the hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Fox) had alleged, was an instance of the good faith which government was anxious to keep with the volunteers. The commanding officer, it was true, was not required to state his precise grounds; but at the same time he could not discharge any man without assigning some grounds which might be afterwards a subject of complaint, if the person discharged found himself agrieved. He thought the clause with the amendment ought to stand as at present, as the persons who might think themselves aggrieved had the power to complain.
Mr. Foxthought that such a system would lead to perpetual litigation, as actions might be brought in such cases for pecuniary losses.
Lord W. Russellwas in favour of the commanding officer being obliged to assign the specific reasons that might lead him to dismiss any man.
Dr. Laurencethought that the clause with the amendment proceded upon a principle that was not military, and inveighed at considerable length against that mixed and indeterminate system which seemed to be too much countenanced by the spirit of the bill. He wished ministers to go to the extent either of the one system or the other.
Mr. Pitt,upon the question being again put, moved that the whole clause be rejected but the first two lines.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdeprecated the idea of dividing the House on a question of his nature. He hoped the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) would not insist on a division, as the question was of so delicate, and, in some respects, intricate a nature. For his own part, he was not ashamed, after all that had been said by the learned gent. (Dr. Laurence), to express his doubts on a question which he had never viewed so nearly as to be able to judge of its effects. He thought it, therefore, the duty of the House not to come to any discussion at present, but to avail themselves of the interval between this and the report, to consider the subject more maturely. He would ask his right hon. friend, (Mr. Pitt) if it was consistent with his principles to debar gentlemen from considering the subject, and to hurry on an immediate decision without regard to the many consequences it might occasion; to decide rashly a question on which the volunteer interests, the very fate, indeed, of the volunteer corps, might ultimately depend. He was thoroughly convinced that it was not the will of the volunteer corps that a discretionary power of an unlimited extent should reside in their commanding officers. Fie wished to have leisure to deliberate before a keep that might be attended with such disastrous consequences. Should a division be insisted on, which he hoped would not, he should be able to-morrow to look back with satisfaction on the vote which he was determined to give, that the clause should stand as it is at present with the amendment already moved. At the same time, he by no means pledged himself to the House that he would adhere to the opinion he had now stated, should he acquire any new information on the subject. The committee have already recognised the principle on which the clause is founded, he thought it necessary, therefore, not to precipitate a subject of so much importance, and on which there was room for so much doubt, while the general principle was acknowledged by all.
Lord G. Cavendishthought the clause ought not to be retained, as it neither was satisfactory to the House, nor appeared to correspond with the opinion of ministers themselves.
Mr. Foxanimadverted on the mode of reasoning pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They were all of one opinion, indeed, in regard to the principle, but that opinion seemed to be that the clause in question meant nothing. They were all of opinion that an unlimited power should not be vested in the commanders of the volunteer corps: but the question was, how to apply to prac-
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tice a principle which they all acknowledged. The right hon. gent, required more time to make up his mind. It the framers of the bill then required more time to come to a determination, there was no wonder that the House should be in want of time for the same purpose, and yet the right hon. gent, would not allow them that indulgence which he claimed exclusively to himself, by forcing down this clause, when, according to his own confession, it absolutely meant nothing. Both he and the right hon. gent, wished to wait till they were more able to determine, but they wished to wait in different ways. He, for his own part, wished to wait by doing nothing. But the right hon. gent, wished not to be idle in the meantime, though his activity amounted to nothing, he would advise those gentlemen, on the contrary, if they could not amend the clause in question, to say nothing, but to wait till they could say something to the purpose It had been said, that it would be degrading to a commanding officer to be obliged to assign his reasons for his conduct, on every occasion; but he would be glad to know from what quarter such sentiments were derived? He was certain the laws of this country did not say so. They required, on the contrary, that every man, in whatever situation, should be able to justify his conduct on principles of truth and honesty. The words of the clause, in fact, meant nothing: but allow them, say the framers of the bill, to remain unmeaning, as we acknowledge them to be, till we can find words that have some meaning, which, in all probability, we shall find between this and the report.
After some observations from Mr. Bragge, General Maitland, and some others, the question of amendment was again put; and a division being called for, the gallery was cleared about ten o'clock.

For the Amendment,

101

Against it,

87

Majority,

14

On the clause relative to the right of volunteers to resign,
Mr. Pittobserved, that there ought to be some time allowed for the notice of resignation, in order to prevent persons from withdrawing in consequence of momentary disgust; and 2dly, to afford the means to commanding officers of obtaining some other person to fill up the vacancy.—After a few words from Mr. Sec. Yorke and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was agreed that 14 days notice should be given after the first of April, the power of resignation in the mean time to remain uncontroled.
Sir Robert Lawleyobserved upon the hardship which would result to a servant, who being inrolled in a volunteer corps, quitted his master's service, and went into another part of the country, and inrolled himself in another corps, whilst, in the mean time, he might probably be called upon to serve (having been previously balloted) in the militia or army of reserve. He thought that if a person inrolled himself in another volunteer corps, within one month after withdrawing from the former, he should be exempt from the effects of the ballot.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid it was his intention to propose a clause relative to tills object.
Mr. Pittthought it but fair, if individuals were trained 24 days, and afterwards resigned, that they should not be liable to actual service in the militia or army of reserve, unless when the corps to which they previously belonged were called out into the field.
Mr. Secretary Yorkeexplained, that the liability to serve referred in the first instance only to the filling up of vacancies. In cases where for non-payment of subscriptions or fines resignation is refused, an appeal, as the bill formerly stood, was to be given to the lords lieutenants and deputy lieutenants of different counties.
Sir W. W. Wynnesaw great inconvenicies arising from this clause, if it were not materially altered. It would, in many cases, be necessary for officers of volunteer corps to go forty or fifty miles to attend an appeal, which would be a very great inconvenience. He proposed, therefore, to extend the right of appeal to magistrates and justices of the peace in the several divisions, sub-divisions, and places where the particular volunteer corps were situated.—The amendment was adopted accordingly.
The clause regulating the allowances to be given to volunteers when on actual service, occasioned a long discussion.
Mr. Secretary Yorkestated his intention to introduce a clause, the effect of which would be, to deduct one guinea from the two guineas to be allowed, from the allowance to corps which have already received an allowance of one guinea, on being called out into actual service.
Mr. Pittobjected to this arrangement. He understood that 24,000 men had been already on permanent duty, and he thought 24,000 guineas a trifling consideration when compared with the benefits to be derived from these corps again assembling for the same purpose. These corps which had assembled on permanent duty, were, he believed, chiefly situate in those parts of the
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country which were most open and exposed; therefore, he thought they ought to be encouraged by bounties to assemble again on permanent duty, in order to render them still more perfect in discipline. They had also assembled at a time of the year when they had not half the means of attaining that perfection of discipline which they might have had at another period. With this view of the subject, he thought that no scruple ought to be entertained about expending 2 or 300,000 guineas for the attainment of so important an object as that increase of discipline in the volunteer corps, which would be attained by their assembling on permanent duty, No narrow economy ought to stand in the way of such an object so material to the defence of the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the corps which had already assembled on permanent duty, had not been called out for the purpose of learning discipline, but to perform garrison duty; he, therefore, agreed that if they assembled again on permanent duty, they ought to receive a similar bounty.
General Maitlandthought that the bounty ought to be regulated by the number of days of actual service. If the volunteers received such large bounties for service, there was danger that jealousy might be created among the regular troops. He suggested the propriety of allowing only 3s. 6d. for seven days service, 10s. 6d. for 14 days, and a guinea where it extended to the whole 21 days. By such an arrangement he was convinced that the inconveniencies alluded to would be avoided. Unless this was done, it had the appearance of giving the volunteers double pay to allow them such large bounties.
Mr. Pittcould not at all admit this inference. When men first entered into the army, they might receive a bounty of 15 or 20 guineas. They thus had the means of living more comfortably the first year of their service than in any one subsequent. But it could not be seriously urged that they were for the first year allowed double pay. He disapproved of the proposition of placing the money allowed in the hands of the commanding officer, to be expended in necessaries. He thought it much preferable to let it be given in the form of a direct bounty. It was proper that the individuals called out should, by receiving the money in this way, be enabled to dispose of it either in procuring more comfortable living, or in saving it for the use of their families. This was the mode of giving the allowance by far the most calculated to encourage offers of actual service.
Sir W. Pulteneywas an enemy to any money being given for the pay of volunteers. It was not by money, but by the principles and spirit of the people, that voluntary service could be obtained. We must, to be enabled to defend the country, have immense numbers of men in arms, and these numbers we had not money to procure. There were many other ways of disposing of our money without paying the volunteers, and with all the economy that could be used, the House might depend on it the public purse would be pretty well drained.
Mr. Pittallowed, that from the habits of his life he could not be supposed so well qualified to judge of the application of money as the hon. baronet; but he must be permitted to say, that the saving now proposed, was one, which neither wisdom or policy could suggest. He entertained no idea that there was any want of spirit in the volunteers of this country; but this spirit alone, without proper encouragement, could not produce voluntary service adequate to the extent of the danger which threatened us. Many individuals might be very willing to enter on actual service, who could not do so without material inconvenience to themselves and families. To remove this inconvenience was the object to be effected by the country, and the expense of money was no object compared with the advantage obtained.—He knew the accuracy of the hon. baronet's mind, and was fully aware of his great weight, but could not help regretting his anxiety on the present occasion to prevent the saving of the expense to be incurred in paying the volunteers on actual service. The hon. baronet's opposition now was distinguished by as great obstinacy as his pertinacious resistance last year to any allowance for drilling the volunteers. He trusted that the committee would not listen to any proposition for curtailing the allowances to volunteers on actual duty.
Sir W. Pulteneyclaimed at least the merit of consistency. The right hon. gent, had chosen to allude somewhat personally to his attachment to money. If the right hon. gent, attacked him on that score, he could retort on him on another, and real to the recollection of the House the extravagant, expensive, and unnecessary schemes of the right hon. gentleman's administration, and the enormous burdens to which that extravagance had subjected the country. The hon. baronet recapitulated his former observations as to the inexpediency of paying the volunteers.
Mr. Windham.made several observations upon the point in question.—Much, had been
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said of the little importance of expense in such a case, but he did not entirely subscribe to such a doctrine. One great question to be considered was, whether the objects proposed could not be got cheaper? Safety was a great and imposing sound; it was a thing of the last importance, but the committee should recollect that the present discussion referred only to a chance of safety, and that but a very bad one too; it was also fair to consider whether the chance of safety they were about to purchase was worth the money to be given for it. There were other objects upon which the money in question might be laid out, and with far greater advantage; the expense of these things was the grand consideration; it was the very sinews of war: let them consider that after all they were always stopped by considerations of expense; things went on smoothly and well until the expense induced hesitation. There were a number of ways in which the sum of money under consideration might be better applied—to the amelioration of the regular army for instance; that most effective species of our force might be in many ways advantaged by money, and in an incalculably greater proportion than the advantages attainable in the present object. It was by no means thought in the country, that the monies under consideration were to be applied to the purposes now stated. In the county of Norfolk the general understanding was, that the money was to be given for necessaries, and not as had been held, in the shape of a bounty, and a bounty renewable as often as the force should be called out.
After a few observations from Mr. R. Ryder, the provision of "that a sum, not exceeding one Guinea, shall be paid by the receivers-general, &c." was agreed to by the committee.—A few of the subsequent clauses and provisions of the bill were then agreed to without observation or amendment.—On the suggestion of Mr. Secretary Yorke the committee agreed to report progress, the chairman was directed accordingly, and the House resuming, the committee was directed to proceed again on Thursday. The remaining orders were then disposed of, and at twelve o'clock the House adjourned.

Preamble
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were heard at some length relative to the appeal cause from the Court or Exchequer in Ireland: William Stewart and others v. Edward Young; Wiz. Messrs. Alexander and Fonblanque for the appellants, and Messrs. Romilly and Stephens on the part of the respondent. The farther hearing of the case was adjourned till to morrow.—The Marine Mutiny bill, and the Scotch Bankrupt Law bill, were brought up from the Commons by Mr. Vansittant and others, and severally read a first time.—The bills upon the table were forwarded is their respective stages: among these were the Duke of York's Estate bill, the report of which was agreed to. The Mutiny bill was read a second time, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—The London Port bill was read a third and passed.

IRISH BANK OF RESTRICTION BILL.—
Their lordships then went upon the order of the day for committing the Bank of Ireland Restriction bill, and accordingly the House resolved into a committee, Lord Walsingham in the chair.
Lord Aucklandtook the opportunity afforded by the reading of one of the clauses, to offer a few observations upon the measure. He was of opinion that some limitation should be set to the issue of the Bank of Ireland paper; and he should have felt it a serious public duty to have called the attention of the House forcibly to the subject, were it not that the provisions in the bill set his mind at ease, under the present circumstances, upon that part of the subject. Of that clause which empowered the legislature to alter, modify, or repeal the bill, in the course of the present session, he particularly approved. Without these salutary provisions, he was open to acknowledge, that he should feel some apprehensions respecting the issue of Irish Bank paper: the excessive issue of which, he entertained no doubt, was the principal cause of the great depreciation of the currency in that part of the United Kingdom. He calculated there was at present six times the amount of paper in circulation that there had been prior to she restriction upon the Bank; indeed, that an excessive issue should cause a depreciation, resulted from the very nature of things, as a glut in (he market of any commodity tended to lower the price.
Lord Hawkesburyexpressed his coincidence in opinion with the noble lord, as to a part of his observations, but not with respect to the whole of them. He was at present averse from giving an opinion their affirmatively or negatively, as to the real cause of the depreciation of the Irish currency; and in like manner, he would then refrain from stating a decided opinion upon the point of an inquiry being set on foot in that House, similar to what was instituted in the other House of Parliament. With respect to a general investigation of the subject, the inclination of his opinion was, that under the present circumstances of the country, such a proceeding would be, upon the whole, rather injurious than beneficial. He thought, however, it would be preferable to wait the result of the pending inquiry, before any proceeding or measure of importance, relative to the subject, should be adopted in that House. He was of the noble lord's opinion as to the expediency of a provision is the bill, enabling Parliament to modify or alter the measure during the present session.
Lord Kingstated, that he had to propose the insertion of a cause in the bill, explanatory or a provision which had been made in the bill of restriction, originally passed in the Parliament of Ireland, and had been since regularly enacted in the subsequent
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bills: the effect of this provision, his lordship described, went to prohibit the recovery of costs in actions brought against the Irish Bank directors, but which he understood had I been acted upon in such a way in some of the Irish courts of law, as he was inclined to think, could not have been the sense of the Irish legislature at the period of the enactment. His lordship instanced the case where a note was suspected to be fictitious, by one of the clerks of the Bank: it was the custom to refuse payment of the note, in the first instance at least; and these notes were frequently marked, in red ink, "forged," by the clerk. In some instances of this kind, payment was insisted upon by the presenter of the note, who, in the event of recurrence to a court of justice, proved the goodness of the note, at least in the opinion of the Jury; or sometimes the validity of the note was acknowledged on the part of the Bank. In the cases he alluded to, the costs were with held, by reason of the clause in question. Such he understood to have been the practice, and he doubted not the concurrence of their lordships in opinion with him, that such a provision ought to be properly explained, and in the particular cases to which he had alluded, to enact the recovery of costs.
Lord Carletonobserved, that this was the first time he had heard of the proceedings stated by the noble lord, as far as related to the with-holding costs; possibly such decisions might have taken place in the Irish law courts, He did not pledge himself to the negative, but he assured the committee he had never heard of any such. Upon the authority before their lordships he thought it would be going too far to enact the provision; proposed by the noble lord. In the state of darkness, in that respect, in which they then were, he thought it would be preferable to let the act remain as it stood, and that they should wait until inquiries shall have been made, and the facts ascertained, previous to their taking any legislative steps upon the subject.
The Lord Chancellorexpressed his thorough acquiescence in what fell from the noble and learned lord: he thought the subject one of very serious importance; it would be preferable, as things stood, to let the bill remain as it was, than to enact the provision proposed by the noble lord. The suitors, in the alternative alluded to, had the appellants jurisdiction to resort to. His lordship also was adverse to such a step being taken, without full and adequate information on the subject, relating to the character of the administration of justice in another

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part of the United Kingdom, which was a point of considerable importance. He concluded by recommending the noble lord, under the present circumstances, to withdraw the motion.—Lord King, after a few words in explanation, consented to withdraw his motion.—When one or the subsequent clauses was come to,
Lord Kingagain rose, and made some general observations upon the injurious effects of excessive issue of paper in Ireland, as well in reference to the course of exchange, as the depreciation of the currency. Under these impressions, he proposed the introduction of a clause tending to set a limit to the issue of paper by 'he Bank of Ireland: his clause would go to fix the limit of the paper issue to the amount it was on the 25th of Nov. last, the latest period to which the accounts were made up: this would give room even for an excessive issue, as it was upwards of 2,900,000 l. which was 300,000 l. more than what it was in the year 1802 He entered into calculations respecting the injurious effect the increased issue had on the state of the exchange, and concluded by moving a clause to the above effect.
Lord Hawkesburydeemed it his duty to resist the adoption of the clause proposed by the noble lord, against which he argued, chiefly on the ground of the impropriety of legislating on such a principle, in bills of the description of that before the House. It would go to legalize and to sanction the issue of paper to a particular amount, to a degree beyond what the legislature could intend to do in such a case; and further, it would be giving an express opinion on the part of the legislature, as to the precise amount to which the issue of bills should extend. Under the present circumstance's, he thought it would be preferable to trust to the discretion of the bank directors, which he thought would be soundly used, and their issue regulated according to circumstances, which was the case with the Bank of England, sometimes more and sometimes less; fluctuating in their issues, with a reference to existing circumstances. Such a provision was the less necessary, when the controlling powers of the clauses in the bill alluded to in an early part of the discussion, were considered. He hoped the noble lord did not mean to press the clause.
Earl Darnleysaid, be did not mean then to give any opinion upon the points under discussion. He entertained a favourable opinion of the Irish Bank directors, who he trusted would not make an improper use of the discretion vested in them; but he
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thought it would be best to wait until the result of the pending inquiry was known, and not to take any legislative step which, may have the appearance of prejudging the question.—Lord King shortly explained his reasons for wishing to adhere to his proposition. The question thereon was put, and negatived. The remaining parts of the bill were then agreed to by the committee, and the House resuming, ordered the report to be received to-morrow.