Sitting of 2 March 1804

MINUTES—
The Speaker having taken the chair, the House proceeded to ballot for a committee to consider the merits of the Coventry petition, complaining of an undue election, when the following members were chosen: Sir. J C Hippieley, Bart.; C. Adams, Esq.; R. Dawson, Esq.; Vise. Fitzharris; Sir G. Heatheote, Bart.; Sir E. Hartopp, Bart.; Lord Porchester; Hon. W. Stewart; W. Moffatt, Esq; M. Wood, Esq.; W. Northey, Esq.; J. Buller, Esq; Sir R. Barclay, Bart.—Nominee, W Praed; P. Francis, Esqs, Who being duly sworn, proceeded forthwith to their committee-room.—Ordered on the motion of Sir G. Cornwall, that the minutes of the proceedings before the Aylesbury committee he printed.—JMr. W. Dundas obtained leave to bring in a bill for the better paving, cleansing, and lighting the city of Edinburgh. Read a second time and committed, the East-India Dock Bill and the Scotch Bankrupt Law Bill—Sir John William Anderson, obtained leave to bring, in a bill for the better Assessment and Collection of the Poor Rates in the parish of Stratford-le-Bow.

IRISH SALARIES AT PAR.—
Lord Arcbibald Hamiltonrose, and observed, that he did expect, in consequence of what had fallen in the course of discussion, a few sights since, that some account would have been laid before the House, respecting the remittances of salaries to the officers belonging to the Irish government resident in England at par. notwithstanding the great differences of exchange which have, since the union, continued to increase as against Ireland. Not seeing, however, any disposition to produce such an account, he felt it his duty to move, "That there be laid before the House, an account of the remittances made from the Irish government to their officers, resident in this country, since the union, and paid to them at par, with the dates of such remittances and payment, and copies of the orders for such remittances."
Mr. Corrysaid, if the noble lord had not moved for the account now stated, he would himself have felt it his duty to have made the motion. On the matter having been mentioned by the noble lord a few nights since, no person could be more solicitous titan he was to have it fully explained; and, indeed, he had already framed a motion on the subject, which he meant to have made, had his intention not been anticipated by the noble lord. If the noble lord wished to have, in minute detail, the precise sums
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paid to every minor officer of the Irish government resident here, with the several dates of payment attached, he had no objection to lay it before the House; but, possibly, it might answer the noble lord's purpose, as well, to have the total sums remitted at each period, as paid at par. The motion which he had framed, and which he would have cheerfully submitted to the noble lord, had he asked him in private, would have gone much further than the noble lord's motion, for it would have required, in addition, the existing rate of exchange on the date of each remittance, and the exceeding above par on each, which would ascertain at once the precise object of the noble lord, and save gentlemen the trouble of a tedious calculation. If the noble lord had no objection to adopt this motion, instead of the one he had proposed, he was welcome to accept it.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonthanked the right hon. gent, and could have no objection to adopt that shape he had given to the motion; but observed, that it omitted a principal point which he wished to learn, namely, the orders by which such remittances were made.
Mr. Corrydeclared himself willing to accede, adding, that no such order was made, except by the Treasury of Ireland, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by whom the payments to minor officers here were made in checks on the Bank.
Lord Folkestoneunderstood, that payments were made to officers resident in Ireland at; par, and. therefore, he wished to add, byway of amendment to the motion, the words, "in or', before the words, "from Ireland."—Agreed to. Upon which the motion passed in this shape, and the account was accordingly ordered.

MILITARY OFFICERS' INCOME TAX.—
Earl Templerose, in consequence of what he had mentioned on a former night, respecting the assessment of income tax upon the others of certain regiments in the district where he resided, in a mode, which, it seemed, had the sanction of his Majesty's Attorney-General; and he meant now to give notice of his intention to bring forward, at a future day, a motion, in some shape, from the discussion of which he should hope to induce the House to exempt subaltern officers from that tax altogether; but which motion he should precede by another, for an Account of the amount of the sums levied under the income tax bill, upon officers of the army and militia, up to the 5th of Nov., so far as the same could be made up. He did not mean to be particular in specifying each regiment, but the gross amount.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if the noble lord had only thought fit to ask the question across the House, or in private of him, there could be no objection to satisfy his curiosity; but since he had avowed his object, and the purpose to which he intended to apply the information, he thought the motion of too much importance to be granted as a motion of course, without previous notice.
Earl Templesaid, he did not intrude the motion now; he only meant to give notice or' bringing it forward on Wednesday next.

IRISH EXCHANGE AND CURRENCY.—
Mr. Fosterrose, and said, that he had given notice a few days ago of his intention to bring forward, this day, a motion for a Committee, to inquire into the causes of the present exorbitant state of the exchange between Ireland and this country, as against the former, and he now meant to perform his promise: and when the House should consider that the rate of exchange at this moment, between Dublin and London, was no less than 18₽ per cent, being 10 per cent, above the ordinary rate, which is 8 13 d per centum, he trusted it was a circumstance sufficiently important to induce the House to take the subject into its mature consideration. The House would have, he was sure, the goodness to reflect, that Ireland was now consolidated with England, in all respects, and bore her quota in the public burthens of the empire; yet her intercourse with this country stood charged with this most severe and oppressive burthen, while the intercourse between the capital and Scotland, and all other parts of the kingdom much more distant from the imperial capital than Dublin, were charged with no such imposts at all. The burthen was not merely confined to the commercial intercourse between the countries, but extended itself to the Irish subject, who came here either to attend his parliamentary duty, or in search of justice to the dernier resort—a grievance attaching upon no other subject from any part of the empire. The evil must flow from some causes which pressingly called for investigation He did not mean now to go at large into the subject, but merely to touch upon the general topics to which the evil had been attributed. Amongst others, the balance of trade had been a cause assigned. That, he would admit, was certainly one of the obvious causes; for, during a space of twenty years previous to 1800, the balance of exports, between Ireland and this country, was upon an average, in favour of the
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former, by above a million a year. In that year, a considerable change took place, by which the balance changed two millions against Ireland. In the next year it was l,000,000 l; in the next above a million; and has so continued, and is likely still to continue increasing every year.—Another of the causes, and a still more prominent one, which he had taken the liberty of stating a few nights since, was the annual remittances to this country of l,300,000 l. to pay the interests of loans, borrowed in this country, for the use of the Irish government; and the remittances of rent to Irish absentee landlords, which by many had been confidently stated at three millions, but which, be believed, would be more correctly estimated at two millions. The only account to balance this, was the remittance of two millions annually, to defray the expenses of government in Ireland, which left a balance against that country of 1,300 000 l. in an arrangement upon this head, it would be of importance to know well the value of bullion in exchange between any two nations, because this must always materially affect the rate of exchange between them. Now in Ireland, at this moment, and for a considerable time past, the price of guineas, in exchange for their current value in paper, is 2s. 4d. to 2s 6d. per guinea, which was actually paid by some gentlemen of his acquaintance, for remittance to this country. Such a state of the difference between bank paper and bullion, in the capital of Ireland, was a lamentable instance of the difference of exchange, and urgently pointed to the necessity of investigation, in order, if possible, to devise some remedy. Various causes had been assigned for the evil, but they were all reduceable to one, namely, the restriction upon the payment in specie by the Bank. Add to this, an effect which arose out of it; namely, the demand for guineas by the manufacturers of the north, which obliged their employers to obtain guineas for them at any rate, and thus raided the price of them 10 per cent. Another cause stated by an hon. gent, the other night (Sir John Newport), was the prevalent disposition to hoarding of guineas, in the three other provinces, which, he was very ready to admit, operated in no inconsiderable degree to the disappearance of gold. But, whatever were the causes altogether, the lamentable result was, that the whole bank paper of the country stood this moment at a depreciation of 10 per cent. Whether paper was or was not depreciated in value, was very easy to be ascertained. When paper was convertible into gold of equal value, it

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was not depreciated, but now when it was necessary to give more than 2s. 4d. premium for a guinea, it was obvious that the paper was at a depreciation of 10 per cent. And he begged the House to consider what must be the situation of a country whose paper was at such a depreciation!—There was another cause to which the evil by some was imputed, namely, the excessive issue of paper from the Bank. Whether this was the cause he would not determine, but he had no doubt but that there was an over issue, seeing, it was well known, that, at the time it was thought necessary to restrain the cash issues of the Bank of Ireland, the amount of their paper extant was only 6,90,000 l. and that the sum of their paper extant, by their last returns, was 2,600,000 l., of which one million was in notes under 5l. There was every probability that this quantity must continue to increase, as it was well known, that the paper of the Bank of Ireland was the stock upon which all the private banks in the kingdom traded and, in proportion to the quantity of the national bank paper the private, banker was able to get into his possession, he was enabled to issue his own paper (which he was bound to pay in national bank paper), to a much more considerable amount; according to the principle of banking stated by some writers, in the ratio of three pounds for one, so that the greater the number of private bankers, and the more they increase their trade, the greater becomes the source of issue for bank paper, and for the increase of any evil of which it may be the cause.—Another cause that might operate, was the supposed insecurity of the country. He was not inclined, however, to think that the state of the country had much effect in producing this very unfavourable state of exchange. No man, he said, ever presumed to call in question the undoubted validity of the national bank of Ireland; therefore, no inconvenience was ultimately to be apprehended from any portion of the paper which it would think fit to issue. Of the excessive issue of bank paper, there were few who entertained a doubt: and that this might be a very prominent cause of the evil complained of, was not problematical.—Now, with respect to the remedy, he should think there was one simple one, which, if it could, under the wisdom of the legislature, be accomplished, would prove at once most effectual. It was the establishment of one common circulating medium through both countries.—There was another point which had not yet been touched en by any person in the course of those discussions which had already taken place on
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this subject, and to which he now begged leave to call the attention of the House. In this commercial intercourse between this country and Scotland, and almost every other branch of the empire, save Ireland, there were two species of circulating medium equally current; namely, gold, and the Bank of England notes. When the issues of gold were restricted, the currency of the notes continued, with little or no inconvenience to the commerce, between the countries. But, between Ireland and this country, there was but one current circulating medium—Gold; and the moment that was restrained, the medium was taken away; for, in Ireland, the notes of the Bank of England did net currently run; so that Ireland, to make her remittances an adequate substitute for guild, deals at a certain lose upon her commerce of 10 per cent.—There was another point too, which was highly desirable to be accomplished, though it might have little or no effect upon the rates of exchange, namely, an equalization of the currency in both countries—There was also, another consideration materially necessary for tee attention of Parliament, in looking to the future situation of Ireland, and providing, in time, a remedy for a mischief, which must, otherwise, be attended with disastrous consequences to the credit of that country. There is at present a balance against Ireland in favour of this country, of 1,300,000 l. per annum, being the remittances to pay the English holders of Irish stock for loans, borrowed for the use of government in. Ireland. This was a burthen of itself alone more than the trade of Ireland was able to bear. While the present system should continue to go on, and the sums borrowed so greatly exceeded the annual interest paid, it might not be so palpably felt in that country but, whenever the day should come for establishing a sure system of finance to raise the necessary supplies by taxes within the year, it would not fail to be severely felt; and, therefore, prudence should dictate the necessity of providing a remedy in time, by endeavouring to do away, under some permanent system, the enormous difference of exchange, which had been increasing every year since the establishment of the union.—He had mentioned, on a former night, the wretched state to which the current coin of Ireland had been reduced. There was scarcely any thing in the shape of money to be seen, but a miserable coinage of adulterated copper, and of counterfeit shillings, so bad, that for a pound Bank note, even at its depreciated value, 26 or 27 of such shillings would be given in exchange.—Not wishing at present

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to detain the Mouse longer, he trusted he had stated enough to shew the necessity for investigation; and he trusted that the House, in its collective wisdom, would be able to devise some effectual remedy for the evils of which the complaints were so just and genera—Mr. Foster concluded by moving, "That a Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes of the present high rate of exchange between Great Britain and Ireland, and the slate of the currency in the latter kingdom; and to report the same to the House"
Mr. Brogdenrose, not to oppose the motion of the right hon. gent, to which he had no objection, but instate shortly his own opinion, that the true causes of the evil complained against, were not those stated by the right hen. gent, but consisted radically in the disturbed state of Ireland, which operated to depress the exports of Ireland in so material a degree for the last few years, as to create, a considerable balance of trade against her. Tins, of course, rendered the number of merchants in Dublin, who could draw upon London, much fewer; and those of London, who could draw on Dublin, much more numerous in proportion; and the natural consequence of a paucity or redundance of such bills at market, raided or depressed the rate of exchange.
Mr. George Ponsonbysaid, that as the hon. gent, had not expressed any intention of opposing the motion, it was not, perhaps, necessary to make any observation upon what he had said, but he thought the hon. gent. might as well have reserved his observations till the Committee went into the inquiry which was proposed. What had been said about exchange might be perfectly true, when the exchange between the two countries was real; but it was well known, that there was a nominal as well as a real exchange, and that ought always to be borne in mind when this subject was discussed. The subject he was convinced was deserving of consideration.—With regard to the distress that prevailed in Ireland on account of the state of the circulation, he was sure no man who had not been in that country could form a just conception of it from any description, however accurate. There was not to be found in the country parts of Ireland, except in the North, any description of coin whatsoever, except some very bad copper; silver or gold there were none. But as something must be used for circulation, there were many persons who, without any capital whatsoever, set up a kind of banking shops, and issued notes of 6d., of 1s., and a note for 3s. 6d. was considered as a very large one!
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The difficulties and inconvenience which this occasioned to the higher classes of so ciety were very great indeed, but infinitely more so to the lower classes. In the course of his professional experience in the Court of Justice, he had witnessed the trials of many of those bankers who had become bankrupts, and the lamentable consequences to those who had become sufferers by their insolvency.—He had himself paid, last Saturday at Dublin, 2s. 4d. each for guineas, to bear his expenses hither on his parliamentary duty, and if he had chosen English banknotes he must have paid a still higher premium in proportion.—To an inquiry so resonable as that proposed by the right hon. gent, who made the motion, he did net expect to hear any preliminary objections, such as those made by the hon. member who spoke last: he thought that any such objections would come much more orderly in this Committee, which he did not seem inclined to oppose. Whether in that Committee a competent remedy could be suggested, was another matter; but, surely, the inquiry ought to be made, by which the House would! manifest its attention to the grievance, and its wish to redress, if redress should appear practicable; and so far the anxiety of the public mind would be consoled upon the subject.
Mr. Corrysaid, he rose by no means to offer the smallest opposition to the motion of the right hon. gent; a motion, the principle of which had already been acceded to by some of his friends round him. He did not, however, wish to be understood as meaning to express any conviction that would produce any practical benefit, which would remedy the evil which, was complained of. If the inquiry should be productive of any beneficial consequences, it would give him the most sincere satisfaction, and even if it should fail of the desired end, it might have this effect, that it would prove to the public the truth of the opinion which had been delivered by the best informed men upon this subject, viz. that for the evil of exchange there was no remedy in the power of Parliament. It would set the public mind at rest upon the subject, and the House would have discharged its duty with attention and with due regard to the interest of the people of Ireland. Every body would be satisfied with the degree of alleviation, if net of remedy, which this might produce, or they would be convinced, after full inquiry, that it was not possible to do any thing upon the subject.—With regard to the circulation of Ireland, the House would bear in recollection, that this subject had not escaped the

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attention of ministers. It had been repeatedly adverted to in the last session, and in the session before. In the last session an act was passed to prohibit the circulation of what was called silver notes in Ireland, from the 1st of Jan. 1804. The propriety of that act was at that time doubted, and as many Irish members were prevented from attending Parliament by their military duties, an act was passed at the commencement of this session to suspend the operation of that act for six months; so that it appeared that the statement of the right hon. gent, though true, had not escaped the attention of his Majesty's ministers.—With regard to the at ate of exchange between Great Britain and Ireland, when it appeared that the balance of exchange was in favour of Ireland in those parts of that country where gold was in circulation, and that it was against Dublin, where there was only paper in circulation, the quantity of paper issued must be looked upon as one of the causes of the depreciation of paper. But besides this, there was, he was convinced, a very considerable degree of management in the subject of exchange. When the treasury of Ireland ceased lo draw upon this country for the amount of the loan, it was observable that the exchange rose considerably in four or five days. There were violent fluctuations of 2, 3, and even 4 per cent. He had, therefore, no doubt, but that a very considerable degree of management was used in creating these violent fluctuations of exchange, which were so advantageous to individuals.—With regard to what had been said on the subject of remittances, there was one species of remittance to Ireland which had not been alluded to. The loan remitted from this country to Ireland certainly affected the immediate balance; but the fact was, that the expenditure in Ireland was greater than its contribution to the joint expenditure, of the United Kingdom. The consequence of that was, that very considerable sums were remitted to that country, and that was one reason why Ireland had been better able to go on than she otherwise would have done.—Then was one subject adverted to by the right hon. gent, who had made the motion, upon which he could by no means agree with him. The right hon. gent, in stating the balance of trade to be against Ireland, had argued entirely upon what was called the original value, but it was perfectly well known that the official value was very considerably or low the real value. It was certainly true, that if gentlemen were guided by the official value of the exports, the balance of trade would appear to be against Ireland, whereas,
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if they looked to the real value of the article exported, which certainly was the only true way of knowing whether the balance was for or against a country, the balance would appear to be in favour of Ireland. To illustrate this point, he would mention one or two instances. It was perfectly well known, that the second great article of export from Ireland was provisions. The barrel of beef exported from Ireland was valued in the official books at l6 s. per cwt. whereas, in fact, the real value, that is to say, the real price at which it was exported was 25, 30, and even 40 s. per cwt. In estimating the amount of the exports of a country, it was necessary to look to the real value, because that was the amount of the money that came into the country as the price of the article. With regard to pork, which was perfectly well known to be another great article of export from Ireland, the official value was 19 s. per cwt., whereas the real price at which it was exported was 30, 33, and even sometimes up to 65 s. per cwt. Butter, which was another great article of export, was stated according to official value at 42 s. per cwt., whereas, in point of fact, it was exported at 70, 80, and even 105 per cwt. It was, therefore, a very unfair means of ascertaining the trade of a country to look merely to official value. It was true, that the real value of the imports was greater than the official value, but not in so great a degree as in the exports. "Therefore Ireland was by no means in the desperate situation which had been represented by some gentlemen. However, as he had slated before, he should not oppose the motion, and it would give him the most lively satisfaction if it produced any beneficial effects;
Mr. Fostersaid, that the observations which the right hon. gent, had made as to the difference between the real and the official value of the exports did not apply, because, in the calculation he had made, he had taken the official value both of imports and exports. He knew very well that there was a great difference between real and official value, because the cattle that were exported from Ireland to England, were valued in Ireland at 12 l a head, but when they came to England their official value was fixed at 61., so that it might be supposed they lost one half of their value by sea-sickness on their passage!
Mr. Cortysaid, he had before stated, that although there was a difference between the real and official value of imports, it was by no means so great as the difference between the real and the official value of the exports.
Lord Henry Pettyrose only to say a few

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words. He felt considerable satisfaction at the candid manner in which the subject had been brought forward and met by the right hon. gent, opposite. He could not omit this opportunity of adverting to an evil which was admitted on all hands to exist, and which passing under the eye of his Majesty's I ministers in Ireland, might be the more effactually remedied. He alluded to the excessive issue of country Bank paper. He should himself be the last to recommend any vigorous measures to restrain the operations of the private bankers, but he could not be persuaded of the property of forcing their paper into circulation. He understood that the military forces in Ireland were paid altogether in the paper of the country banks, and that an improper, he had almost said a corrupt connexion, existed between the agents employed in paying the military and yeomanry, and the bankers. As soon as these agents received their remitiances, they lodged them in the country bank, taking their paper in exchange for paying the forces, and the noble lord agreed that the Bank of Ireland paper became thus an additional capital to the country banker. In such a state of the country, he looked upon investigation, to the end or devising some remedy, as absolutely indispensible. Unhappy, indeed, must that situation of a country' be, which affords to the fraudulent an opportunity of deluding the unwary, and to the strong the means of oppressing the weak.—He had but one observation more to make. Though no objection had been made by the right hon. gent. (Mr.Corry), he had thrown out, that little was to be expected from the enquiry. If ever there was a subject which deserved the serious and effectual interference of the Legislature, it was the present. The evil was universally admitted. Though remedics had been mentioned out of doors, there however existed a difference of opinion with respect to them, and the noble lord thought that the best mode of coming to some agreement, with respect to the remedy of an evil universally allowed to exist, was to appoint the committee, and institute an open inquiry which would lead to a discovery of the best means of redress.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that no person could regret more than he did the unfortunate state of exchange in Ireland, and the depreciation of its paper currency. He was glad, therefore, that such a motion had been brought forward, but did not know that any measure could be applied with effect to the evil that was on all sides admitted. He could not help thinking, however, that we were apt to attach more evil to the circulation of
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paper than it really would admit; and that the issues, however excessive they might be supposed, could not, without other causes, account for the present state of exchange. The great disparity between gold and silver was certainly allowed; but the difficulty was to preserve the gold in circulation where every person was so eager to hoard it. The sate of the two countries was extremely different. In this country no person would lose a bargain by insisting on payment in gold; but in Ireland, in many parts of it at least, there was no buying without gold. He would willingly second any measure that could promise a rational hope of producing greater confidence in the paper circulation, which was so necessary to the interests of the country.
Mr. Dickwas of opinion, that not only those discussions that were instituted in this House, but the speculations that were circulated through every part of the country, were extremely disadvantageous, and had a tendency to augment the evil they meant to remedy. There seemed to him to be a kind of prejudice entertained against she Bank of Ireland, which he was sure was very ill-founded. The directors of the Bank of Ireland had been attacked both in and out of that House: he had seen a pamphlet, written by a noble lord (King), nut a member of that House, which contained a most violent, unwarrantable, and unsuccessful attack upon that must respectable body of men, and the ground of attack was the great issue of paper. He did nor wish to occupy the attention of the House; but he was anxious to offer an observation that had occurred to him in regard to the subject now in discussion. To the Bank of Ireland no particular circumstances had occurred since the year 1797 that could affect their interests, but the restriction of their issues in specie. Since that restriction had taken place, however, some circulating medium became absolutely necessary, and the effects of this new circuiting medium were various, since that event, in particular, they had increased their capital to a very great degree. The situation of the country was such, the hon. gent. thought, that nothing but the restoration of tranquillity, and the gallantry of; his country toward In-land in money transactions, could effectually remedy those evils that were complained of.
Sir John Newportwas of opinion also, that nothing could be mote unfavourable to the state of exchange that was so much complained of, than the discussions that took place in the House, which had a tendency to excite hopes that could not be realized, and

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to expose grievances that did not admit of redress. The low rate of exchange, so tin-favourable to Ireland, though owing much, he thought, to the present insecurity of that country, or, which was equally the same, to what might be thought its present insecurity, would be found to arise also from a number of other causes. To remedy those evils, however, he did not think it in the power of the legislative authority, and in many instances incompetent with the legal exercise of that authority. If the state of exchange between this country and Hamburg, or any other country in similar circumstances, was deemed an improper subject of legislative interference, he could see no reason why the interference of the legislature became necessary in regard to Ireland, or what good effects that interference could produce. The course of exchange in every country must necessarily depend on its trade. It must depend on the comparative state of its exports and imports, which, so far as was consistent with the fair exercise of trade, was by no means an immediate object of legislation. The course of exchange was not only now unfavourable to Ireland, but had been so for several years past. It was difficult to say if it was in the. power of legislation to apply any remedy without removing the original causes; the most important of which it was certainly not in the power of legislation to remove. Of these the absentee rents he regarded as none of the least important, and this cause of depression in the rate of Irish exchange, he conceived to be not greater at present than in the year 180 J.—Another cause of this depression also he conceived to be the present state of Ireland, as it stood in regard to the threatened invasion, and the necessary defence against the projects of a foreign enemy, as well as its own internal commotions. In this state of the country, while the men were employed in its defence, they often thought it prudent to place their wives and children in a place of security, and to convey what moveable wealth they could command in the same manner, or apply it in some other country to the support of their family. But when the people of Ireland came to have the same confidence in their money transactions, and in the stability of their circulating medium, as Scotland and the North of England possessed, the circumstances that were so unfavourable to the exchange of that country would, in a great measure, be diminished.—To all the other causes he had mentioned, that want of confidence in their paper money was no inconsiderable addition, and this want of confidence, the hon. baronet contended, was
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not a new or recent circumstance. The people of the north of Ireland, even in times of peace, have been long in the habit of carrying on no trade but through the medium of specie. They have been long in the habit of rejecting paper, and their articles being generally necessary, it has become customary not to tender it. This prejudice in the north of Ireland might be owing to their foreign connexions, or to their more immediate relations with Scotland and England, but must have a tendency to drain the specie from the other parts of Ireland, and to diminish the respectability, and, therefore, the value of the paper currency. The people in the north receive nothing but gold; as their articles are necessary they must have it, and by thus drawing the current specie to one part of the kingdom must injure the rest. he hon. baronet was anxious that nothing violent should le adopted, that the measures adopted on the subject ought rather to have a tendency to assist the natural course of things and to remove obstructions, than to give any new or unnatural direction to existing circumstances.—The hon. baronet concluded by expressing his hope that the committee moved for would take up the question in its proper light, and would not dissolve themselves till they had placed the Bank of Ireland in such a situation, as enable them to have some control over the private banks, and to check, in some measure, the issue of paper by every private person who chose to start up and call himself a banker, without any other qualification or security but the power of adding to the paper currency of the country. Every person making such pretensions should be compelled to justify by something more substantial than appearances, the confidence they claim.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonfound himself compelled to state, in justice to the noble author of the pamphlet alluded to, that, previous to the restriction on the Bank of ireland, their paper issues had not amounted to more than 600,000 l., whereas since that period lie understood their issues of that description were 2,700,000 l., which had given an increased dividend of 6½ He farther understood, his lordship stated, that they had given a bonus of 5 per cent, at the very time too when the rate of exchange was 20 per cent, to their disadvantage. It was not merely the present moment that was to be regarded with alarm. But what, on the present system, attended with so many growing evils, must the prospect in future be? He had recurred only to the periods subsequent to the restriction. He did not mean to say

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that the evil was greater than it hid been at some previous periods; but he meant to say, that it was a growing evil, and ought to be the subject of serious inquiry. He acquiesced, therefore, with the hon. baronet opposite (Sir J. Newport), in deploring the evil, as every person must do, and in expressing an anxiety to be able to congratulate the House and the country, on the restoration of that confidence in the money transactions of Ireland which was so necessary to its interests.
Mr. Alexandersaid, he hoped the House would go into the proposed inquiry. He wished that there was a uniform medium of circulation in both countries, whether it was of gold or of paper. He contended, that there was no ground for any charge upon the Bank of Ireland, the directors of which acted from the best motives; and if there was any inconvenience, it arose from the issue of their paper being too small instead of being too large. The fact was, that the issue of their paper had been intercepted by an extraordinary degree of agency on the part of the private banks.
Mr. Foxcould not pass unnoticed, an idea that had been suggested in regard to the pamphlet of his noble friend (Lord King). It had been said, that discussion on this subject had an unfavourable tendency, and that on this principle the pamphlet in question had a tendency rather to increase than to remedy the evil. But, he maintained, that nothing could be more favourable on any subject than an examination of facts so far as it is possible to examine them. This the pamphlet of the noble lord certainly did, and the very circumstance which had been advanced as an aggravation of the mischief it was calculated to produce, was the very best proof of its merit, he meant the influence and circulation it had obtained. At his time of life, what influence could that noble lord possess, but such only as was derived from argument, and that conviction which was the necessary accompaniment of truth. And would any man say, that to adduce facts to the public on a subject that called for investigation, and of which the evils were felt, and to accompany those facts with a conviction that those evils were capable of redress, was a measure that could on any occasion, or on any subject, be improper? Nothing, he was sure, would give his noble friend more pleasure than to have his opinions closely investigated. The House ought, he thought, by all means to go into a committee on the subject in question. The more such subjects were discussed so much the bitter. He had no idea of that
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security or confidence in any set of principles, or in any measures, that were the result only of silence, and that must fall to the ground the moment such principles are discussed or examined. He denied that the legislature could not interfere with advantage in regard to the rate of exchange between other countries and this. An hon. baronet had proposed, as an argument against legislative interference in the instance now before the House, that it would be equally improper, and attended with no greater advantage to interfere in the case of Ireland than in the case of Hamburgh, or any other country less connected with the empire than Irleand. But he would remind the hon. baronet, that about 32 years ago the legislature had interfered in regard to the state of exchange between this country and Hamburgh, which was precisely the instance which the hon. baronet had said would, in his opinion, be equally fruitless or improper as our interference with Ireland. Yet in 1772, when the exchange between this country and Hamburgh was unfavourable to this country, and the coin of this country was so debased that it was received at inferior value at Hamburgh, the legislature thought proper to interfere, and give the coin of this country a nominal value equal to that of Hamburgh, which, so far from being attended with any disadvantage, had the desired effect.—In respect to the currency of Ireland, it was not the guinea that was raised, but the paper that was depreciated. It was not the guinea that was worth 2s. more, but the paper that was regarded as so much less. The great object, therefore, ought to be, to adopt some effectual measure to support the paper currency of Ireland, and for that purpose to find out the cause of its depreciation. The country, he believed, was exceedingly obliged to the right hon. gent, who proposed the question. He thought the House and the country were indebted to the right, hon. gent, who had brought forward the motion, and concluded by hoping, that the pamphlet alluded to might be taken into the committee, and the arguments of his noble friend refuted or established.
Mr. Dickrose to declare, that he did not mean to cast any reflection on the noble lord to whom he had formerly alluded.—After a few words from Mr. Dent in favour of the motion, the motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, amongst whom were the. following members: Mr. Foster, Lord A. Hamilton, Lord Henry Petty, Lord Folkestone, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Grey, Mr. Rose, Mr. Canning, Sir W. Pulteney, Sir J. Newport, Mr. J. C. Beresford, Mr. She-

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ridan, and Mr. Brogden; five to be a quorum.

IRISH REVENUE ACTS.—
Mr. Corrysaid, that an order of yesterday for a committee of the whole House on the Irish revenue acts had dropped in consequence of there not being a sufficient number of members to proceed to a ballot, but he trusted their could be no objection to the House now voting itself into a committee on the said acts. It was his intention to propose in the committee the renewal of the Irish duties, and as they would expire on the 25th of March, he trusted he should not be considered as too rapid in pressing the subject.—

HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.—
Mr. Greysaid, he did not mean to oppose the motion of the right hon. gent, but, previous to going into the committee, he wished to put a question to his Majesty's ministers, which he would have done antecedent to the motion that had just been disposed of, if he had had any suspicion that the discussion would have extended to such length. The question he meant to put was deeply interesting to the public, and in putting it he acted under a strong sense of duty, which obliged him to ask some explanation of the terms which had been used both here and in another place, on a subject which affected every British breast. Though, on the firs! view, the information that had been given seemed calculated to give satisfaction to the public, yet it had created only doubts and anxiety, which were afflicting to every loyal subject. He had risen, therefore, to ask some explanation of the words, which had been on a former occasion employed, in order to do away those doubts and that ambiguity which they had given birth to. If he did not mistake, the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were, that there was no necessary suspension of the royal functions. He wished to understand whether the right hon. gent, meant to state, that his Majesty was at present personally competent to the performance of the functions of the executive, and whether he was to consider him as pledged to these words. He wished also to be informed, whether the assertion was founded on his observation in a personal communication with his Majesty, or only on the reports of the physicians attending his Majesty. He put this question, not from any want of delicacy, but in order to remove the anxiety which at present affected the public; and he thought it his duty to, ask, and he was sure the House had a right to require, an explanation, that
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it might know whether, in proceeding with the public business, it was not violating a fundamental principle of the constitution. He trusted the answer would be explicit; but whether satisfactory or not, it was not his intention to oppose the progress of the other measure, the order for which had been dropped yesterday, if the right hon. gent. were disposed to proceed with it this night. Should, however, the answer not be satisfactory, he should consider it his duty, to submit a motion to the House on the subject, on an early day next week.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that whether the question which was put by the hon. gent, was one which when publicly known, would excite regret in the minds of an affectionate and loyal people, or otherwise, was not for him to declare. It was his desire to be as explicit as his sense of his duty would permit, and after the manner in which this subject had been adverted to on a former night, and what he had said on that occasion, he should have thought that all further questions of this kind would have been precluded, and abstained from. He had then slated what was in the recollection of every hon. member, and what the hon. gent, had now repeated. To that he should refer the hon. gent, with this single addition, that it was not founded on any personal intercourse with his Majesty, but on that which enabled him to state it to the House on better and more authorative information, the concurring testimony of all the five physicians who were in attendance on his Majesty.—
Mr. Greysaid, that if things continued in the state they were at present, he should think it his duty to make a specific motion on the subject on an early day in next week.
Mr. Pittsuggested whether it would not be right, that the proposition made by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Corry) for going into a committee on the Irish revenue acts, having for its object to replace acts which were not to expire till the 25th of March, should take place of another measure, the volunteer consolidation bill, the importance of which daily and hourly pressed stronger upon the country.
Mr. Corrysaid, that all the duties of Ireland would expire with the existing acts on the 25th of March next. It was therefore essential to forward the present measure, but if it was the pleasure of the House, to allow him to propose the schedule pro forma, and then to allow the report to be brought up tomorrow, that he might make such comments as he would have thought it neces-

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sary to make this night in accompanying and explaining the schedule, he should be happy to accommodate himself to (he superior urgency of the subject alluded to by the right horn gent. After a short conversation between Mr. Foster and Mr. Corry, the House went into the committee, the resolutions were agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow

MUTINY BILL—
The Secretary at Warobserved, that among the dropped orders, was one for the committal of the mutiny bill. He trusted, that the House would have no objection to forwarding this important measure now.—The House accordingly went into the committee. The report was ordered; to be received to-morrow.

VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL
Mr. Secretary Yorkemoved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. As there were several clauses to propose he suggested that it would be better to debate the principle of the bill on the report.—The House having resolved itself into a committee, the right hon. Secretary proposed several amendments in the body of the bill, the first of which went to confine the repeal of former laws to those relating to the yeomanry and volunteer corps of Great-Britain, it being thought better, he said, to leave the laws relating to the yeomanry and volunteer corps of Ireland as they stood. He also proposed to insert some words to render the fines and penalties under former acts recoverable. His next amendment went to authorise the continuance of the corps now in existence, unless his Majesty should please to discontinue the services of any corps, or part of a corps, by an order through the Secretary of State These amendments were severally agreed to.
Sir William Youngthen rose to propose an amendment in the second clause. The House, he said, must be aware that the war was like to be of long duration, and it therefore became necessary to look towards a permanent system of defence. He thought that the exemptions tended to withdraw from the force of the country a great proportion of its population. With respect to these he wished to draw the line between those volunteers who had originally come forward on the purest principles of patriotism, and those who had afterwards come forward in order to avoid the compulsory provisions of the defence act. He wished only to extend the exemptions to those corps who had been accepted by his Majesty previous to the 27th of July 1803, by which means they would only attach upon 80 or
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90.000 men, whilst 250,000 of the flower of our youth would be brought back again into the general force of the country. He thought they ought to do all they could to rends r this great machine of the population of the country as effective as possible, and therefore to strike out from the exemptions all those who had no idea at the time of their coming forward of any exemption at all. He concluded by moving an amendment, for the purpose of confining the exemptions to those corps who had been accepted previous to the 27th of July 1803.
Mr. Pittreally hoped it was impossible the House could think this proposition required much argument to prove, that it could not possibly be adopted with any thing like consistency or common sense. In the present session, immediately previous to the Christmas recess, in order to prevent doubts as to a supposed breach on this point, the exemptions had been given to all corps, on condition of exercising a certain number of days. These corps having conformed to that condition, was the House now to withhold or take away the boon it had held forth? Having performed and ratified the compact, so far as they were concerned, was Parliament to forfeit the pledge it had gives, and to recal the distinctions it had cancelled and repealed? By this proposition the exemptions would be taken away from persons to whom they were given by Parliament, and enjoyed by persons coming into these corps with their eyes open And all this because they had offered their services to avoid the compulsory clauses of the defence act. Now, let him here observe, that if Parliament held out inducements to voluntary service as preferable, and in order to save the trouble of resorting to compulsion, and then endeavoured to retract and take back the inducements to which it had pledged itself; if it had said, "it is true you have complied with what we desired, but we will take away what we promised to you," he thought this amounted pretty clearly to a breach of faith. Then this was to be done because the persons composing the corps enrolled subsequent to the 27th July, were supposed to have avoided compulsion. Now, if there was any point universally recognised and agreed upon, it was, that the compulsory power should be kept in reserve to enforce the exertion if it was tardy, but that voluntary exertion was preferable, if it could be obtained in sufficient extent; and if that exertion should not be obtained in sufficient proportion in any particular district, the compulsory clauses should be put in force in those districts.—If persons came voluntarily forward, they saved

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the trouble of force and selection from the classes. On this ground, therefore, he was unable to comprehend the mode of reasoning resorted to by the Lon. baronet. Tilt; distinction was inapplicable in another sense: it supposed that all volunteers who offered their services since the 27th of July, had offered them for the purpose of avoiding the ballot. It was a notorious fact, that so far from being influenced by such a motive, they bad mane their offers previous to the passing of the bill: and the answers to the offers had been delayed; till the sense of Parliament was ascertained by the passing of the I bill. He believed this might have been the reason why some of the offers from the country, with which the hon. baronet was particularly connected, had not been earlier accepted. It was but a very short time since this very fact had been brought in proof of the injustice of drawing a line by dates, This whole effect of the distinction proposed, would go in the indirect way, to disband the whole of the volunteers, except the 80 or 90,000 enrolled before the 27th of July. Let nobody suppose that he asserted, that the exemptions were the motive of the offers of volunteer service. He knew it was I no such thing. But, he knew that the exemptions having been given and enjoyed, without distinction, equally by all, to take them back now from three-fourths of that force, would be setting a mark on them, which would operate as a discouragement, Whether the volunteer system was the wisest that could have been formed at first, was not now the question; but, having gone so far in it, it would be madness now to abandon it. No person contended that it should be abandoned, at least he hoped not.
Mr. Windhamrose to propose a course of proceeding, which would obviate much trouble. It was, that as a great number of clauses were to be proposed by the movers of the bill, as well as by others, which it was impossible, however intelligible they may be to the proposers, that those who never before heard them should understand, so as to decide on the instant the propriety of adopting or rejecting them, whether it would not be better to have them all admitted into the bill pro forma this night, and printed for discussion on the report or recommitment, when they should have been fully considered. He foresaw, that this proposition afforded room for an objection, that many clauses would get into the bill which its proposers did not approve of, and which being inconsistent with each other, gave rise to a charge of inconsistency against those who drew them up; but he thought
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this objection was but apparent and ought to be overcome for the sake of convenience, and of coming better prepared to the discussion.
Mr. Fullerdefended the motives of the volunteer offers of service. He adverted to the deficiency in the Sussex militia, which arose from the necessity of finding substitutes from the county itself, or the adjacent counties. The county itself was not a manufacturing county, consequently it wanted one of the principal sources of recruiting its militia. It was a maritime county, having no adjoining county on 90 miles of its border.
Mr. Secretary Yorkeobserved, that the principle of obtaining substitutes from the county itself, or the adjoining county, was universal, and one. of the oldest in the militia laws.—In answer to the proposition of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), it must be obviously inadmissible so far as it went to the reception of ail clauses of whatever description. But if it was agreeable, he would state the substance of the clauses he had to propose, which might be agreed to pro forma, and the bill being reprinted with them, might be discussed again on Tuesday. The right hon. gent, behind him (Mr. Pitt), and any other gent, who had clauses, might then propose them, and they would be debated.
Mr. Curwenhoped, after what had been said, that the hon baronet would see the propriety of withdrawing his clause. If the clause was adopted, it would be partial in its operation, as the ballot bad taken place in some districts,' and consequently the benefit of the exemptions was enjoyed in those districts; in other districts it had not taken place, and, consequently, the exemptions would be denied in those districts, if the clause was allowed to pass. He should, before a distant day, move, that returns of all the volunteer corps should be obtained, distinguishing the classes. He was sure it would then be found that the number bene-fitted by the exemptions was very few.
Colonel Craufurdwas ready to accede to the proposition made by his right hon. friend, and assented to by the Sec. of Stale, if the hon. baronet, in withdrawing his clause, was to be understood to mean to bring it forward again. He would not, however, deprive himself entirely of the opportunity of discussing the propriety of those exemptions which deprived us of an armed peasantry, and if the hon. baronet's clause was not to be brought forward on another night, he would offer his observations now.
Mr. Pittsaid it would be extremely convenient for the House, before proceeding

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farther, to understand what was the mode to be adopted. He had no difficulty in saying that the convenience of gentlemen would be suited if the amendments were brought in, and the House put in possession of the clauses, if it did not interpose too long a delay to the progress of the measure. It had been the custom to agree to clauses and amendments pro forma, and afterwards to recommit them for the observations of others. But he hoped that before the committee closed, or before the House separated, he should have an opportunity of stating the substance of his own amendments, not pledging himself to move them, nor even to state them, if the amendments of the right hon. gent, met his objects.
The Chancellar the Exchequerexplained the object of his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke) which, was to consult the convenience of the House. His right hon. friend would still hear what he had to offer in the nature of amendment, and others would be at liberty to say how far these amendments met their views.
Sir William Youngsaid, he should not press his amendment after what had been said; but he thought it would be no breach of faith to take away from the volunteers, what was never given to them.—The proposed amendment was then withdrawn.—A further explanation took place betwixt Mr. Pitt and Mr. Yorke, the result of which was, that the right hon. Sec. of State should generally explain the nature of his amendments, and that Mr. Pitt should he permitted to put the House in possession of the scope of his intended improvements.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, if he understood the wish of the committee, it was, that the clauses he had to propose should be received pro forma, and that he should state his view of the provisions suggested by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), with his reasons why he thought some of those ought not to be inserted in the present bill. He set out upon the basis, that the volunteer system must at present be preserved, that it would be unwise at the present moment to lay it aside, but that it must be rendered as effectual as possible. He thought that a great deal of misconception had taken place with respect to the volunteers. The volunteer system had arisen out of the Defence Act; by that act his Majesty was empowered to call out the classes, in case a sufficient number of volunteers did not come forward, or to fill up any part of the system that might be done away, but he was of opinion, that that act ought to remain in reserve, to be only executed in case there was a necessity
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for it, as it was certainly much better that what was wanted should be effected by the volunteer system of the country than by compulsion.—Many opinions had been, thrown out, that the voluntary system was not carried to that extent which it might have been, and some gent. were of opinion, that clauses ought to be introduced for that purpose. He wished to state the necessity there was, that they should not attempt to do too much in the way of regulations. He asked gent, to consider under what regulations the volunteers at present subsisted, and what had been done upon that subject. The act of 1794. did no more than enable his Majesty to accept corps, to grant exemptions from the militia ballots, and to make provisions for putting them under martial law in the event of their being called into actual service, but left his Majesty to make such rules and regulations for their discipline as he should think fit. He must, then, observe, that, whatever ought to be done in this respect, it was not necessary to make it part of the present bill; it was only necessary to vote the money wanted for pay and allowances.—With respect to the allowances, there could be no question as to those granted to volunteer corps accepted previous to the 1st of Aug., but it had been said that similar liberality had not been shewn to the corps accepted since. He begged leave to observe, that in the allowances to the latter, ministers had in view the provisions of the defence act, and wished to assimilate the allowances as much as possible to those to which those persons who would have been called out under that act would have been called to, 20 days pay. In point of fact, he believed, that most of the corps had exercised 40 or 50 days in the course of the year, which was a strong proof of their zeal. He agreed it was of importance that in the course of the next 3 months, the volunteer corps ought to exercise more frequently, in order to perfect themselves in discipline.—The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had proposed, that corps should be invited to assemble on permanent pay and duty, and Lad also proposed two modes for inspecting these corps. The first, that they should have regular officers as assistant field-officers to receive pay; and the other, that they should borrow for the time, officers from regiments of the line. He was friendly to the principle of corps assembling for a certain time on permanent pay and duty: and if it should appear to be the wish of a sufficient number of volunteers in any particular district so to assemble, they might be permitted to do so

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by his Majesty, without any provision on that subject being necessary in the present bill. All that would be necessary, would be to vote the requisite sum* of money. Permanent duty was certainly the best state in which discipline could be learnt, but as to giving more than 20 days pay, it became a question for consideration, how far an equivalent would be received for that increased pay. Ha thought there was considerable danger in applying general rules to this subject; it might be proper in some cases to give the increased pay, whilst in others it would not; in each case, it must depend upon circumstances, but, certainly, there need not be any proviso introduced upon the subject in the present bill.—Another point adverted to had been that of field officers, which he now understood the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) to say, was only intended to apply to those corps who applied for such assistance. He at first understood it 'differently, but at any rate there was no difficulty in the business, as His Majesty on the recommendation of the lord lieut. might appoint such held officers or others to volunteer corps as he should think fit. As to the pay to be given to these officers, it had been thought advisable not to give permanent pay to those officers appointed to corps accepted prior to June last, but if they held a commission in the army to allow them their half pay, and this upon the principle that they were held to be persons who did nor want such assistance.—With respect to these modern corps, no allowance was made, except for an Adjutant. It might be said, that allowances ought to have been made; but it was not necessary for him to apologize for ministers being as economical as possible; it was better to begin under the mark, than make too large an establishment, which it might be difficult afterwards to reduce.—Adverting again to the subject of permanent pay, he would just observe, that as the law had stood since 1794, upon the offer being accepted of any corps to assemble upon permanent duty, they were considered to be in the same situation as if called out in case of actual invasion, and were entitled to the marching guinea, to provide themselves with necessaries. He would propose a clause to do away doubts upon this subject, in which he should propose that this guinea should be deducted from the two guineas to which they were entitled after the defeat or expulsion of the enemy.—The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had proposed that a clause should be inserted to remove doubts with respect lo the election of officers:—it was not his intention to propose any such clause. His Majesty undoubtedly had the power of commission-
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ing officers recommended by the lord lieut. or of rejecting such persons. There, therefore, appeared no question about an election, except only where that was included in the terms of acceptance.—He had mentioned one exception on a former occasion, in the case of the light horse volunteers, who recommended to his Majesty persons to hold commissions in that corps, but when called into actual service, that right had ceased, and in case of the death of an officer, the next in seniority succeeded. There were some who only looked to the corps of the metropolis, considering them as every thing, and who, because two or three corps had claimed the right of electing officers, supposed it was general; but, in the country, where corps were formed under the influence of gent, of rank and property, no such idea was entertained. It was to be supposed, at the same time, that no person would be appointed an officer in a volunteer corps who was not agreable to that corps.—Much had been said on a former occasion about the power of committees, but wherever they had interfered in military discipline they had been checked, and no person could say that, in the regulation of financial concerns, they were acting improperly: it was well known that, in case of the death of a Paymaster, there was a committee of paymasters in every regiment of the line.—The last point which he had to notice, was the suggestions respecting rules and regulations for enforcing attendance and discipline, whilst under arms, by fine, imprisonment, &c. He must say, that he was wholly averse to such a plan, which he considered lo be entirely inconsistent with the nature of the volunteer service operting in its disembodied state. Such a system would, he conceived, not merely produce inconvenience, but would lead to the destruction of the volunteer system, or at least to a very considerable diminution of numbers. There was another objection to it likewise, arising out of the Defence act. Provisions were made there for fines and penalties upon the different classes, in case of disobedience; but it was expressly stated, that if a sufficient number of volunteers came forward, they should be relieved from the compulsory clauses of the bill. They having come forward in that confidence, and it would be in some instances a breach of faith to resort to those compulsory clauses to be applied against them.—He concluded by proposing several new clauses, some of which related to the exemptions under former acts, and the allowance to volunteers from serving in the militia and army of reserve. It was not intended, he

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said, to exempt them from the ballot, but that on their names being balloted they should be placed on a separate list, and that on any one of them quitting his corps he should be called upon to serve by himself or substitute to fill up the first vacancy that occurred in the sub-division.—He also proposed that no person should be exempted from serving or finding a substitute, who did not attend the exercise of his corns 24 days in the course of the year.—Another clause went to enable the deputy lieutenants or magistrates to apportion the quotas for the militia and army of reserve, having regard to the number of volunteers in any particular place. Another clause inflicted penalties for the sale of arms belonging to government, or inducing a volunteer to sell his arms, and to enable commanding officers to have a place for keeping arms, the expense to be paid by the receiver-general of the land tax.—Another clause enabled commanding officers to dismiss any one from a corps, and another to prevent any dispute about withdrawing from a corps, by enacting, that where a commanding officer shall refuse to accept the resignation tendered by any member of the corps, the latter may appeal to the lord lieut. or deputy lieut. who shall decide in a summary way.
Mr. Pittsaid, he should have been extremely happy if the right hon. gent, who had just spoken, had relieved him from the necessity of addressing the Committee upon the present occasion; but as the matter stood, lie was under that necessity. He was not desirous of particularly or tenaciously adhering to one mode rather than another, provided he saw that the substance of the thing he wanted was likely to be secured, and which appeared to him absolutely necessary to be accomplished. It was indifferent to him whether that was done by means of clauses in the bill or by the executive government, in virtue of any discretionary power given for that purpose, provided he found an assurance that it would be done; in that case, he should have been ready to acquiesce with government in any mode they might think expedient to adopt, but from the speech of the right hon. gent. that matter was left wholly uncertain, whether any thing that might amount to the substance of his proposal would be acceded to, on one or two of the most important points, as it appeared to him, in the whole of the volunteer system; he must therefore state to the Committee the ground of his proposal, that they might consider whether clauses would not be better than to leave the matter open to any discretion whatever.—He should take first that point which with
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him was the most important object in his mind in the present crisis; namely, that which was to render the volunteers as well accomplished as possible in point of discipline; and he had the good fortune to have the concurrence of the right hon. gent, upon the importance of that subject, as he had admitted the necessity of calling out all the corps, and having them trained and exercised frequently for the purpose of improving them in discipline, and that this should be done as early as possible, and he had assured the Committee that the executive government would enforce this measure. But, Mr. Pitt said, he doubted whether it would not be necessary to insert a clause in the bill I for that purpose, in order to have the thing done as effectually and distinctly as it should be. He was aware there was a clause in the bill of last year for that purpose, which gave power to his Majesty to assemble the volunteers, at his command, on the appearance of invasion, hut there required something more than the actual appearance of invasion, or a general appearance of actual invasion, as it was generally described; for the enemy may be hovering about, apparently for the purpose of invasion, for many months, and perhaps for years, and when this expression of "appearance of invasion" was of doubtful construction, and particularly as that construction governed the question, whether so large and efficient a body of men as those of the volunteers, should or should not be put in a situation in which they could best acquire perfect discipline. It was the practice to call out the militia in time of war, and that power was not specifically provided for, but was und; r the general authority which the crown derived from the same sentence he had already quoted, that of actual invasion or in imminent danger thereof; that was the authority by which the militia were embodied, and put on permanent duty, as they always were in time of war; and he wished some principle of this kind to be applied to the volunteers, at least that they might be invited, as many of them had been, to take permanent duty for awhile in certain places, as they had been last year. Ministers then had apparent reason to believe that an invasion was at hand, and, therefore, they invited some volunteers out on permanent duty and pay. They thought that a season in which that was likely. He did not say, that now there was a greater prospect of it, or that this should be made a matter of doubt or question, but he should be sorry that any thing should be neglected, on any account whatever, that could be of use to the volunteer system, for now there

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was a stronger reason for our being prepared at all points than at any former period, for that now the danger was, in his opinion, more imminent than ever; and, therefore, he thought it should not be left as an equivocal sentence, as that of appearance of invasion, or imminent danger thereof: in his opinion, in point of policy, the volunteers should not only understand that they may be put on permanent duty now, if in the opinion of the executive government it was fit they should be so, but also that they should understand, that in the opinion of Parliament, they ought to be so for awhile. Whether this event of invasion was to take place in six weeks, or in six months, or eight months, we should be prepared; and therefore he was of opinion, that they should be assembled, and should march, and be put on pay and permanent duty, where they should agree to do so, for the purpose of their improvement in their military exercise; and lie would insert in the. bill words for the purpose of giving the crown the power of so calling this force out in any pan it might be thought advisable; for he could net help thinking there was reason for going to that extent, and then the volunteers would be under precisely the same regulation, as the militia in that respect, although it might not be. necessary to continue them in that state so long: this he thought necessary to be made matter of provision in the bill, not that the crown had not the power already of inviting the volunteers out on pay and permanent duty, but he thought it would be better that the volunteers should understand it to be the. opinion of Parliament, as well as that of the executive government, that they should be so invited.—He did not know what the right hon. gent, meant upon the subject of the bounty to be given to volunteers on their being called out, whether this bounty was to be extended to all volunteer corps who should be willing to serve for a time, or only to the 24,000 who are assembled and on permanent duty: that 24,000 was a considerable number for an emergency he was willing to admit, but in making a great effort, such as ought now to be made by means of a body of more than 300,000 men, he should hope that many more eight be immediately put in this situation, and he should wish this matter to be explained, hut on this he was not so anxious to say much, provided he was assured that the encouragement of pay was meant to be offered to all volunteers who may wish to profit in their military acquirements: but on the subject of the bounty. as mentioned by the right hon. gent, he doubted whether
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what was proposed, or rather what was stated, would be satisfactory, or even admissible when it came to be considered. The right hon. gent, said, they were to have pay for 21 days on which they should be on permanent duty, but that the guinea which was to be advanced to them was to be deducted out of the original two guineas intended to be allowed in the event of their going into the field, the one on their proceeding to march, the other on their return home after having expelled the enemy.—Now, that did appear to him to be a very bad system to make them efficient for actual invasion, and inverting the order of things it was adding nothing to what was originally intended to be given, and it was misplacing that which was to be allowed; for it was giving to the men nothing when they were to be most wanted, but taking away all the effect of what was intended to be given, for it was transposing the time, and changing a I gift into that winch was the reverse of it, for by this mode of deducting the guinea out of the two guineas originally intended for each volunteer who shall march to repel I an invasion, he would have nothing on the march, if he had received his guinea on being first embodied; so that when the volunteers ought to be most encouraged, government proposed fresh duty to them instead of bounty, and, therefore, he could not help thinking that this part of the plan, as opened by she right hon. gent, would appear, upon further consideration, such as could not be persisted in. This was only saying, that if an invasion came, 200,000 l. might be saved to the country. Now, if we were sure they would return home to enjoy the sight of their families and children secured by their valour and enjoying the thought of that idea, and the still more glorious one, that of their country being secured in triumph, he should hardly think that in the most sober disposition that any man could view economy, he would conceive that the happiness of that day would be much increased by the reflection, that 200,0OO l. had been saved to the country by the scrupulous policy of the executive government, and therefore he hoped that the right hon. gent, would, upon reflection, think this part of his policy hardly worth adhering to; and that when this matter came to be stated in detail in the Committee, there would be a disposition to reconsider it. If the volunteer has had his guinea on being first put on his permanent duty, and that is to be deducted out of his original two guineas, as had been originally stated, he will have nothing on his march against the ene-

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my; or if having it on his march, he will then have had his two guineas, and he will have nothing on his return home, and therefore he thought this a very indifferent policy. There was, indeed, much wisdom in the policy of the legislature in giving men something that marked its goodwill; and independent of that, it was natural that when men should be called upon on the sudden, to go for a period from their families and homes, they should have the happiness to know, that although they were obliged to go in the service of the country, and leave those of whom they were the natural protectors, yet that what they had already received, and for which their country In d already had their service, would not be deducted out of that which was originally either for their actual march, or their return, that what they may have spent before they marched, and for which their country may already have had their service, will not be taken into the account, but that they shall receive their guinea on their march, and also their guinea on their return home, as if they had received nothing before: lie thought this matter extremely important, so much so, that he should feel it his duty to press it hereafter, if he did not find in ministers a disposition to acquiesce in it. However, there was one thing of which he was extremely glad, which was, to see the disposition shewn by the right hon. gent. on the part of the executive government, to encourage the improvement of discipline; and which, if rightly attended to by the volunteers now, they may acquire more in a few weeks, than formerly they might have been able to acquire in some months-, because, with the knowledge they now possess, improvement, if duly attended to, might be very rapid. He supposed, that when the right hon. gent, mentioned 20 days for the present year, he meant over and above the 21, for which the pay was to be allowed; if so, there would be no difference of opinion between him and the right hon. gent, in that respect, as far as regarded the present year; for, although he wished 40 days, including the days of inspection, yet in this case he should be willing to allow that the 21 should be deemed part of the 40, and lie thought it would be extremely desirable, and becoming the wisdom of Parliament, when this system was to become part of our permanent defence, to put the volunteers for awhile on permanent service, to give them a degree of efficiency which they C3n never otherwise acquire, and this was a subject upon which a very large portion of that House could speak from experience. lie did not believe that any experienced offi-
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cer in the House, after having looked at this subject with the attention it deserved, would say, that the necessary discipline could be acquired in less than 40 days in the year, and that such attention would be highly beneficial to all the volunteer corps, and of course beneficial to their country, which confided so much in them for its security. When Parliament proposed only 20 days, there might have been reason to guide government to have insisted upon a different course being taken from what they did take. He would remark in passing, that the manner in which that was stated by the right hon. gent, tonight, was not quite consistent with the plan he recommended; for the question now was, what number of days shall, or shall not be allowed for the training and exercising the volunteers? The right hon. gent, had said, it would be better not to provide many of those points by provisions in the bill, but leave much to the discretion of the executive government to judge of the circumstances. Now, this, in the first instance, would have been very well bat, he had a reason, which he would soon state, for not thinking that the executive government ought to have this discretion now. It did not appear to him that the executive government had judged wisely upon this occasion; they seemed to have thought themselves confined to the 20 days, and to give no more time than Parliament gave for this purpose, and that appeared to him to be a very good reason why Parliament should now think I that 20 days are sufficient; nor was there any objection to make provision upon this; head specifically under the present circumstances. When the House was voting a sum of money as a vote of credit, it was usually left to the executive government to judge how much of it should be issued for any particular purpose: yet, when the House came to judge how much money should be allowed for a specific object, is was more regular and constitutional for the House to regulate the mode of effectuating that object; so that when Parliament came 10 vote the money to defray the expense on this matter, it should stale the number of days which shall be occupied for this purpose.—Nor was this at ail entrenching upon the principle by which the other branches of the military service of the country was conducted; he meant that which was in any degree analagous to the present, the militia. In that service, Parliament specified what money (he officers and men should he paid, and also the number of days the privates should be (raised and exercised, and he did not see why Parliament should not be as distinct

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and specific on the subject of the volunteer service as that of the militia; but this, again, he did not mean to discuss now, he merely threw it out in passing, as a matter fit hereafter to be discussed.—As to the means of instructing the volunteers by field officers and adjutants from the regular service, he threw that out for the consideration of ministers; he did not intend to produce any clause to that effect; but, unquestionably, if he did not see more disposition than had been hitherto shewn by ministers to make some provision for that purpose, he should feel it his duty to bring forward a measure for that purpose for the consideration of Parliament, not by way of clause in any bill, for it would come more regularly by way of address to his Majesty; but he would be satisfied to hear from ministers, that the volunteers should have the benefit of the instruction of officers detached from the line, during the period of permament duty of the volunteers; but he saw an unwillingness in ministers to allow pay to any field officer for thus instructing the volunteers. He should not, at present, go into the ground of that objection. The committee would recollect that the very first day he stated this matter, he accompanied his statement with a declaration, that he did not wish that such officers should be provided for any corps who did not expressly desire to have that species of instruction, and who should actually apply for it, nor did he propose this at all with any view but that of such officers being mere temporary assistants to the commanders of the volunteer corps. Ministers said, that in many instances it was done, and the whole question was a question of expense: it must be desirable that the volunteers should have the best instruction they possibly could have, and, therefore, whether they should be instructed by those who knew but little, or by some who knew nothing of that which it was essential for the volunteers to learn, was a question which he did not know how to argue. Whether it was better to be taught by those who have a perfect knowledge of the thing to be learnt, or by those who knew it imperfectly, or by those who did not know it at all, was a thing which he could not argue, because his mind knew not how to argue that upon which it was unable to conceive the application of an argument, since nothing could be matter of rational argument upon which it was inconceivable how a doubt could be entertained upon it; and, as to the matter of economy, upon a point so essential as that of knowledge for the volunteers, in order to make them efficient in service and most essential to the safety of their
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country, and when he considered that this economy involved only a question of a few shillings per man, enable such an immense body as the volunteers to be of eminent service to their country, and to with-hold that instruction which could alone make them thus useful, for the sake of saving such few shillings, was a species of economy which did not enter into his understanding. Comprehending it under the head of the general scale of the expenditure of a war like the present, and compared with the general scale of our means of defraying that expenditure, great as that expenditure must be, or considered with reference to our resources, and feeling that this expense may amount to a few thousand pounds, was that which, considering the utility of the measure on the one hand, and the expenditure on the other, he knew not how a representative of the people of this country, bound to adopt measures for their general welfare, could possibly regard as a question. Ministers themselves admitted that this instruction to the volunteers was desirable; but they said there were but few instances, in which the officers so wanted, could be procured; certainly they would be few, if ministers were determined to give them so little encouragement. He knew it was impossible to over-rate the exertions of gentlemen of fortune and distinction in the country, for the purpose of rendering the volunteers as nearly perfect as possible; he knew no limits to their zeal and ardour, but that must be confined to those districts in which they resided, whereas persons of great skill and eminence might be found, who, from a combination of untoward circumstances, had been obliged to give up a career of glory in the profession of arms, from want of a prospect of advancement consistent wish their age or talents, and to retire into the obscurity of a country village, in a stale, if not of penury, certainly far from opulence, who could not transfer 3 family from a distant part of the country to which he had retired for the prudent purpose of that economy that was essential to his existence, into another where his services might be rendered by way of instruction to others, and by which he might renew and rekindle that flame which was only clouded, but not extinguished in his breast by pecuniary disappointment, and add more laurels to his life, if this encouragement were held out to him. This was not an imaginary character that he was drawing, he had an opportunity of knowing several such, one of whom he had an opportunity of serving and of bringing into a state where his talents had been eminently useful.—Having expa-

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tiated upon this subject, he said, he hoped there was no objection against the volunteers availing themselves of assistance of such immense value as this, in such a crisis as the present. He should be sorry, indeed, if any difficulty should stand in the way of this most important point, upon which, however, he should not say any more at present.—The next point was, that of the appointment of officers of the volunteers, on which the right honourable gentleman agreed it was better not to make any legislative provision; he originally thought so too, and the only doubt with him was, whether something had not been rendered necessary by the point having been so much and so unnecessarily agitated, in order that the authority of the legislature might set the matter at rest.—Upon the subject of signing the commissions of officers in the volunteers, he thought the practice which had hitherto been fallowed, that of giving them all the sign manual, highly objectionable; not only because it was so very laborious, and in its nature productive of unavoidable delay, insomuch that officers were obliged to wait for months for their commissions; but also because the thing was absolutely unnecessary, for they might be under the same regulations as the commissions of the militia, which were signed by the lieutenants of the counties, except in cases to which the crown did not:asaent.—There was another point on which he had the misfortune still to differ from the right hon. gent.: he meant with regard to the propriety of making regulations to discipline volunteer corps by means of parliamentary provision, instead of leaving that matter to the discretion of the executive government, and for regulating their attendance, and taking due care of their arms, &c. He had prepared a clause upon that subject, and which he must still offer, for he would venture to say, it was the general complaint of all officers of volunteer corps, that there were some among them who, not for want of any good will, for that he knew the whole mass of them possessed in something almost equal to perfection, but from those ideas which were inseparable from all men who had not a great deal of experience, did not bestow on the office of a volunteer, that attention which was absolutely requisite to complete that character. There would be husbandmen, and there would be artisans, who would chuse to think that they were soldiers, somewhat sooner than their officers might think them entitled completely to that character; the consequence was, that they would appear only on some shewy day, when but little advantage was to be obtained
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from the drill. He did not say the volunteers had not done, in general, very well, but of this he was sure, that in one half the time they took up at first they would gain more than double the knowledge, for in this, as in every thing else, it was after some knowledge was painfully gained, that knowledge was easily and rapidly acquired, and without more and fuller attendance, perfection was not to be obtained. He knew it was very popular at present to say that the essence of the volunteer system was to leave every thing to voluntary exertion; that there was no necessity to enact any tiling, that the zeal of volunteers would do every tiling, that there was nothing to fear from their want of discipline. Much of this sort of doctrine might be at present popular, but it was a species of popularity which a man who loved his country, and who gravely considered its true interest, would not seek. He knew the volunteer corps were a body of men open to good sense, and he was of opinion they might easily be persuaded in the bulk to assent to some measures of compulsion, not that they ail needed compulsion to perform their duty, but because some of them did; for it was not unknown to any corps, that there were among them some who were less often at the drill and less attentive when there than others, so that when they did attend they not only manifested their own imperfections, but, from the nature of military exercise, they must of necessity impede the progress of others in their improvement; and then there was some levity to be expected from the age and habits of some of them, so that to his mind moderate compulsion was in a considerable degree essential to their attaining the height of military perfection, of which with attention they were capable. He knew it was more popular to compliment them all, and to say that they wanted nothing, but he thought that pursuing this course without informing a system by which they might be essentially improved, would be the highest imprudence; and here there was more necessity for making some regulations than there had been in the first instance; since Parliament had formerly enacted particular matters positively, and then said that such other rules and regulations should be adopted as to his Majesty should seem meet; thereby evidently conveying an idea, that many things would seem meet to be done by way of rules and regulations which were not specified or pointed out by that law; but to his Majesty's executive government nothing did seem meet to be done beyond the strict provisions of the statute, which amounted to a

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hint to Parliament, by way of caution, that if they wanted any thing to be done, they must enact it specifically; that if they trust to the executive government to do any thing more than was duly set clown for them, Parliament would be disappointed; therefore, if there were any rules and regulations at all necessary, Parliament must point them out, or they would never be adopted, for which reason he had in his pocket a clause for this purpose, which he should hereafter offer to the House.—There was a declaratory clause in the bill at present, which related to the power of resignation in a volunteer, which, in the present condition of things, required one alteration, and that was, to turn every negative in it into an affirmative declaration. A doubt had been once entertained as to what was intended by the legislature as to the power of resignation of a volunteer; upon the opinion of the most eminent in rank, in the profession of the law not upon the bench, and not more eminent in rank than in talents and abilities, nor more eminent in either, than he was for public virtue, and all those private qualities which render a man justly estimable in life; lie meant his Majesty's attorney general. That learned gent, gave an opinion upon the question of a volunteer's power to resign. Another very distinguished gent, give an opinion directly opposite to it, accompanied with great eloquence, and more solidity of judgment than might have been expected to accompany such diffusive eloquence, and the learned judges of the court of King's Bench determined with the opinion of the latter gent, and held that a volunteer had, by law, a right to resign when he pleased, and without any condition; now this bill was drawn by those who said nothing of any doubt being entertained on this point while the thing was doubtful, who declared that the opinion of the court of King's Bench was so consonant to their wishes as to what the law should be, that if they had not so decided they would have brought in a bill to make the law so. But how did these very persons now declare that law? They now left the day in blank in the bill to be filled up by the committee, and as to the law which the court of King's Bench had decided, saying, that a volunteer might resign in any manner, and when he thinks proper, without any condition, they said, that he shall be able to do under certain conditions, what the court of King's Bench had already decided he might do without any condition whatever—that the person who the court said might resign when he pleased,
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shall be able to resign within three weeks after he had given notice of his intention—that the point which the court had decided, was doubtful that was to say, that a thing was doubtful after it was decided there was no doubt; that a man might be able to do conditionally, that which the law already enabled him to do without condition. The clause stated, "that whereas doubts have arisen," which should be altered to, "whereas there is no doubt."—The clause stated, "that therefore after three weeks notice he shall be at liberty to resign;" which should be altered to "after three weeks notice he shall not resign."—The right hon. gent, adverted to the assertion so often made, that the ballot lists were dry in particular districts; but this he attributed much more to the unequal distribution of the quotas to be balloted for the militia, &c. than to the extension of the volunteer system. This inequality he was very desirous that some means should be devised to remove. Reverting to the discipline of the volunteers, he took notice of an evil which he describe to exist to a great extent, and which ought to be corrected; namely, the practice of farmers in preventing the men in their employment from attending drill, and also the conduct of the master manufacturers in the great manufacturing towns, practising a similar restraint upon their apprentices, over whom they seemed to conceive that they had the power of preventing them from earning any money unless from their employment. Those were evils against which he would be glad to see some provision made. He concluded with professing his wish to assist in framing any measure to advance the improvement of the volunteer system, declaring that he had no wish to embarrass the progress of the bill before the House, which, on the contrary, he was sincerely anxious to render as perfect as possible.
Mr. Secretary Yorkestated, that there was a circumstance which he committed I to mention, when he first addressed the committee, and that was, that it was intended to appoint an inspecting field officer to every 2500, or 3000 men, and which field officers, in case of invasion, were to act as brigade generals with the corps under their inspection.—With respect to that part of the bill which regarded the election of officers, although he was of opinion, that it should be generally left to the King's discretion, yet he thought that on many, or, indeed, most occasions, it would be proper to allow the lieutenants of the counties to sign "commissions.—He would trouble the committee with a few words on the declare-

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tory clause on which so much had been said. No member in that House could entertain a more sacred reverence than be did for the decision of the court of King's Bench; yet, with all the respect that he entertained for it, he would claim the privilege of asserting, that the judgment of that court did not settle the law in general with respect to the volunteer system, although he must allow it did in the particular point which was submitted to it. Besides, the decision of that court was not final, for every member of that House must know, that a writ of error would lie from a judgment pronounced in the court of King's Bench: and where men of great professional eminence and acknowledged reputation differed in their interpretation of a particular statute, the framers of a new bill on that subject would be well satisfied in commencing the preamble of it, with the expression, "whereas doubts have arisen, &c." With respect to that part of the bill which referred to the distribution of the quotas, his idea was, that the lieutenants should make two returns, one as if the volunteers did not exist, and the other specifying the exemptions.
Mr. Pittrepeated the idea thrown out in his former speech, of the necessity of employing in the volunteer service, as field officer, either persons on half-pay, or persons who had once been in the army, but had retired from it. They would be fully as serviceable as an increased number of subalterns, and would not create any greater expense. Great as the patriotism of those at the head of the volunteer establishment was, it would not be expected that they could go through the permanent drudgery of continual drills. That would only be conducted by officers who, by a moderate and secured pay, were attached to the different corps.
Mr. Curwenobjected to many parts of the system, and hoped that apprentices who had been admitted into volunteer corps, would not be taken away from their masters', service, without some allowance in recompense. He disapproved of the practice of levying fines, and recommended an allowance of pay, but for what period he would not take upon himself to suggest, if gent, were still much attached to the practice of fining, he thought all the advantages that were expected from that usage, could be secured by a reasonable deduction from such pay for every non-attendance. The conditions of the services of he different volunteer corps were so various, that he much feared no general code could be formed for the regulations of so diversified and complicated system.
Mr. Fullercould by no means be reconciled to the idea of allowing pay to field officers. With respect to the idea of remunerating the volunteer, which has been so much insisted on, he observed, that a generous public would not hesitate to reward him afterwards. Some of the hon. gentleman's observations created much risibility in the House; but he declared, that attempts to beat him down would be found ineffectual, and that no consideration whatever should prevent him from speaking his mind.—Some explanatory conversation took place between Col. Eyre and Mr. Sec. Yorke, relative to the attendance of the adjutants, serjeant-majors, &c.
Sir John Wrottesleyexpressed his opinion, that sonic general rule should be laid down which would go to meet, the difficulties complained of. With respect to this, however, he thought the variety of the occupations of the people of this country a disadvantageous consideration. It might, notwithstanding, be found that some degree of military duly would suit every respective description of the inhabitants, and which may be arranged by his Majesty's ministers, with the assistance of, or carried into effect under, the superintendence of general officers.
Mr. C, Wynneadverted to several remaining details in the system, for which some efficient regulations ought to be established, particularly to the circumstance of farmers' servants being allowed to be called out. He thought some provision should be made with respect to those who may be called out on permanent duty. On these points he thought something more effectual should be brought forward than had been as yet proposed.
Mr. Secretary Yorkethen proposed some farther amendments, which were without discussion ordered to be incorporated in the bill.—The chairman was then ordered to leave the chair, and to report the bill, with the amendments, to the House.—The House resumed, and ordered the report to be now received.—The amendments were then formally agreed to by the House, and, on the motion of Mr. Sec. Yorke, the bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed, and the whole taken into farther consideration on Tuesday next.

Preamble
The bill for prohibiting the exportation of seed corn for a limited time, was read a second time, and committed for Monday next—The several private bills before theit lordships were passed in their respective stages.—Lord Viscount Carleton and the Earl of Macclesfield presented two petitions, which were ordered to be laid on the table.—Several witnesses were sworn to give evidence on certain private bills in progress through the House, and the oaths of allegiance were taken by an alien, Daniel Boileau, previous to the 2d reading of his naturalization bill.—The bill was afterwards read a second time, and ordered to be referred to the consideration of a private committee. Adjourned.