Sitting of 27 February 1804

MINUTES.—
The London Dock Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. Bankes reported the resolution of the Committee on the Hereford election, That John Scudamore, Esq. and Thomas Powell Symonds, Esq. were duly elected, and that the petition against their election was frivolous and vexatious.—Sir M. Ridley brought up a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of Newcastle upon Tyne. Ordered lo be laid on the table.—Lord Henry Petty brought up the report of the Committee on the petition of the Sierra Leone Company, which was ordered to be laid upon the table and printed.—Mr. Hiley Addington moved, that the copy of the evidence taken before the Committee of last sessions appointed to inquire into the petition of the cotton manufacturers be referred to the Committee to whom the petition of said manufacturers was presented this present session. Ordered.—The Duke of York's Surrey Estate Bill was read a third time and passed.

PROPERTY TAX.—
Earl Templesaid, that as he observed the Secretary at War in his place, he rose for the purpose of putting a question to him, on, a subject which was highly interesting to a numerous and respectable body of men, and upon the answer which the Right Hon. Secretary made to; him would depend, whether or not he

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should give notice of bringing forward a motion before the House, The subject to which he referred was this:—He understood that early in the month of January last, a communication was made to the commanders of several militia regiments by a person calling himself collector, requiring lasts to be transmitted to him of all the officers in the several regiments, liable to pay the tax upon property for the amount of duty upon their pay. These lists were accordingly sent in, and, in consequence, certain sums were directed by the said collector to be stopped from the pay of the officers, being six months pay due upon the tax, from the 6th of April to the 10th of October, 1803. Mow it must be obvious to the House, that such a demand could not be legally made, because one-third, at least, of these officers were not appointed till the time of the supplementary militia being called out, in July, 1803, and their commissions, upon which this tax was demanded, only existed about the end of June, or in the month of July last. There were instances of other officers who had been appointed since then, and yet the property tax was still demanded upon them from April last; and, when appeals were sent in, the answer given, as he understood, was, that these appeals would be taken into consideration, and, if well founded, that the tax appealed against should be deducted from the demand of duty upon the ensuing next month's pay. But this mode of proceeding, he considered, as imposing a great hardship upon these officers; for, upon supposition of the militia being disbanded in the interval, that money would be lost to them. And again, as to the manner of collecting this tax, instead of doing so quarterly, as he believed the act required, officers were called upon to pay six months duty. His lordship observed, that by the calculation which he had been induced to make, he found that according to this plan, the deduction from the pay of ensigns would render the actual nett sum they would receive less, in fact, than that of day labourers in this city. He desired, therefore, tube informed, whether any alteration was to be made in this respect. The noble lord had, on behalf of the regiment which he had the honour to command, written to the Secretary at War on the subject, and had received for answer, that it was not that right hon. gentleman's intention to interfere in the arrangement. The noble lord wished, therefore, to know, whether it was in contemplation of his Majesty's ministers, to suspend the ar-
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rangement, until a Committee should be appointed to inquire into the business, as, otherwise, he should feel it his duty to submit a motion to the House on the subject.
The Secretary at Warobserved, that the noble lord had stated truly, that in the private answer he had returned to his lordship's enquiry upon this subject, he had explained, that being called upon to nominate the commissioners, whose business it was to tax the officers, his duty in this business was over. It the commissioners should be found to have exceeded their trust, the law was open to correct them; as far, however, as his information reached, he did not think any just ground of complaint could be laid against them. The tax, undoubtedly, could not commence till the officers' commissions were issued, and, at all events, complaints of this kind would be heard in the usual way of appeal, so that there could be no more reason for the interference of Parliament, with respect to the militia officers in particular, than with respect to the demand of the tax, as it affected the property of any other individuals. He concluded by disclaiming any idea of interference with the commissioners.
Earl Templerepeated, that the specific ground of complaint was, that those officers, who were not commissioned until July last, were made liable to pay the lax from the 6th of April; and when appeals were made, the collectors had said, that a deduction would be allowed upon the ensuing half-yearly assessment. Such was the hardship upon the officers of which he complained; and that in the mean time an illegal tax was, in fact, levied upon them.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that he apprehended many officers had neglected to make their returns of income when first called upon; but undoubtedly those who had no commissions until June or July, were not to be charged with the income duty from the preceding April; and he was confident, that when the particulars off their several cases were taken into consideration, no illegality or species of oppression would be exercised against them.
Earl Templethen gave notice that, in consequence of the answer and explanation given by the Secretary at War not proving satisfactory to him, it was his intention within two or three day's time, to move the appointment of a committee to take into consideration the conduct of collectors of the income tax, as far as respected the demands made upon the officers of militia.

HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.—
Mr. Secretary Yorkerose and moved the order of the day for the second reading of the bill for amending and consolidating the various acts relative to volunteers. On the question being put from the chair,
Sir Robert Lawleyrose and addressed the House as follows.—Sir; I rise to take upon; myself a most delicate and distressing duty, by calling the attention of die House to a subject, which I consider to be one of the highest importance and the deepest interest to the country. The House win perceive, that I allude to the much lamented indisposition of our beloved Sovereign. Ever since much the 14th of the present month, this House, in common with the public at large, have been in possession of the melancholy information that his Majesty has been confined by a dangerous and doubtful illness. It is rot my wish to enter, with any; degree of minuteness, into this most delicate and distressing subject; but I cannot help thinking, after the interval which has taken place, and after the reports of the physicians specially appointed to declare to the public the state of his Majesty's health for the last two days, that Parliament has a right to expect some explicit communication. I cannot but consider such a communication necessary, in order to remove those distressing doubts which his Majesty's much deplored indisposition has created in every part of the country. Sir, I have a right to assume to myself, that that illness is of the most severe nature; and in the reports submitted to the public, no satisfactory ground of hope is held out that it will come to a speedy termination. Some direct, explicit communication is loudly called for, and this, as a member of Parliament, I think it my duty to require of ministers. Upon the answer which I shall receive to these few observations on this most interesting subject, I shall be guided, either in grounding upon it a specific motion, or in moving that this House do now adjourn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—Sir; in answer to the question which the honourable baronet has thought it his duty to, put to his Majesty's ministers, I feel it incumbent upon me to say, that I have the happiness of being enabled to state to this House, that, in the opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants, founded upon the best information that can be obtained, such a communication as that required by the hon. baronet, could not it possibly answer any good purpose; and farther, that any pro-
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ceeding founded on such communication on the part of his Majesty's ministers, would, in their opinion, be inconsistent with the duty which they owe to the King, to Parliament, and to the country; highly indecent in itself under the present circumstances of his Majesty's indisposition, and, therefore, utterly unwarrantable.
Sir Robert Lawley.—Sir, I move, that this House do now adjourn.
Mr. Fox.—I feel, Sir, that the subject introduced to the attention of the House is one of the highest interest and the most sacred importance. It is very far from my wish, in the course of my observations, to fail in that delicacy which it so strongly suggests. But, Sir, I should feel that I was deficient in duty to this House, deficient in duly to his Majesty, deficient in duty to the principles of the constitution, if I could bring myself to acquiesce in the answer which the right hon. gent., who just sit down, has thought fit to submit to our consideration. It does not accord with my opinions, to attach so great a degree of delicacy to this discussion, as some persons may wish to inculcate. There does not appear any material obstacle in the way of fair, liberal discussion, and it is with such a view of the subject, that I am desirous of laying before the House, the reasons which induce me to think the answer of the right hon. gent. altogether unsatisfactory. It will not, I conceive, Sir, be denied, that hitherto the House and the Public, know nothing of the lamented indisposition of his Majesty, except through die medium of those daily Reports which have been published by official authority. By these alone can we be guided. On these alone can any opinion be formed. But, Sir, how has the right hon. gent. proceeded in attempting this evening to convey any thing like information to the House? He has told us, that it is the opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants that no communication is necessary—that such a communication would be indecent—that it could be made the ground of no subsequent proceeding. On this most extraordinary declaration I wish to call the attention of the House, not only to common practice, but to what is the strict letter and spirit of the constitution. I have to say, then, that I know of no such persons as the King's confidential servants. They are a body utterly unknown in any constitutional view of the subject. I know, indeed, of a body of individuals more particularly employed in the executive government, but in this capacity alone can they be recognized.

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The right hon. gent. opposite is known to this House as the person holding the important situation of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and other gentlemen may be known as holding other offices in his Majesty's service, bat as to confidential servants of his Majesty, the fact is, they cannot be recognized, in a general point of view, they are nothing more than privy counsellors, and can claim no superior distinction. There is one, and only one point of distinction, and that is, the circumstance of their being more frequently called upon for their advice by the Sovereign. When any business of emergency occurs, and a council is to be held, they are more frequently called upon for their assistance, and that, Sir, is the only distinction betwixt them and the other members of his Majesty's privy council. It will not surely, however, be necessary to take up much of the time of the House, in shewing that this is a distinction inseparable from the regular daily exercise of all the royal functions. From the moment that the Sovereign, from illness or from any other cause, is rendered incapable of discharging the functions of royalty, those persons, described as confidential servants of the crown, are nothing more than ordinary privy counsellors. The source of their distinction is, for the time, destroyed, and it is ridiculous to talk of their continuing the exercise of powers expressly delegated from the chief magistrate in person. If any communication bad been made this evening from those styling themselves the confidential servants of his Majesty, I am sure, Sir, that such a communication would have been received with all the respect due to any message from so honourable a body of individuals, and any subsequent proceedings founded on such a communication must have been matter for very grave and important inquiry. But how does the House stand with respect to any communication at the present moment? Why, Sir, the whole is reduced to this simple point:—The right hon. gent. over the way, has informed us that certain individuals, styling themselves his Majesty's confidential servants, of whom the House constitutionally know nothing, have felt it their duty to give no information on a subject deeply interesting, not to the members of this House alone, but to every loyal man throughout the empire. They tell us farther, that any communication of his sort would be productive of no good consequence, but that to require any information at present would be equally improper and indecent. It is not surely, Sir, at all unreasonable to ask, whether this opinion is founded on any knowledge of
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the present state of his Majesty's health, and the prospect of a speedy recovery? But here the right hon. gent. will not condescend to gratify the House with a single tittle of information. His answer is, that in the opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants, there is no occasion for any communication, and in this assurance Parliament is to confide. Now, how does the public information, respecting the Sovereign's health, stand? Has that information, which must be so gratifying to every loyal heart, been communicated, that the period of his Majesty's recovery may be expected to be near at hand? Have government communicated any thing at all like this to the House? Have they said a single word as to the probable duration of his Majesty's illness, and his ability to resume the ordinary functions of royalty? On these points they have left the House in a state of total darkness. If they had made any communication to the House, then it would have been for Parliament to determine whether a longer pause might not be allowed, without resorting to any extraordinary measures. On the other hand, if the communication had not been of so satisfactory a nature, the House, in the exercise of its constitutional privileges, would have been called upon to deliberate as to the steps proper to be adopted, and to decide whether those steps should be such as were applicable to a contingent event, or directed to an immediate evil. These, Sir, are my general views as to the imperious necessity of a communication on so very interesting a subject. After the communication had been made, it would then have remained with us to determine, what time was to elapse before it was made the ground of any subsequent proceedings, and before the nature of these proceedings is folly ascertained. If any argument were wanting to prove the expediency of an immediate communication to Parliament, in my opinion the official reports of his Majesty's health for the two last days would be fully sufficient to demonstrate it. It is very clear from these reports, that the speedy recovery of his Majesty is not to be reasonably expected. Yesterday the report was gratifying, so far as this, that an assurance of his Majesty's recovery from the illness with which he has been afflicted, was held forth, but it was, at the same time, accompanied with the declaration of the physicians, that a rapid amendment could not be expected. To day the report was, that his Majesty was still better than he was yesterday, and that he was gradually approaching to recovery. There is, to he sure, Sir, in these reports, much to gratify every Royal

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neart; but though we may now hone that his Majesty is out of danger, we have no ground for believing, that he will speedily be enabled to resume the functions of royally. In the one report we are told, that a rapid recovery cannot be expected; and, in the other, that he is gradually approaching to recovery. The terms are clearly contradistinguished to each other; and, if language has any meaning, the assertion I have new made is fully established. All loyal subjects are happy to have such good accounts of the health of their Sovereign; but as it is now declared that his recovery must be gradual, the question of the expediency of some communication on the subject to the House becomes more apparent. It is not at all my wish, on the present occasion, to anticipate what decision the House may come to after a communication is made; but I must protest against the doctrine, that certain persons, styling themselves his Majesty's confidential servants, should take on themselves the right of determining when a communication to Parliament should be brought forward. For any individuals, whatever situation under government they hold, whether appearing as Chancellor of the Exchequer, or as Secretaries of State, to assume to themselves the right of judging when an undoubted privilege of Parliament is to be exercised, is assuming a power which no former ministers have ever done in any period of our history. I have already said, Sir, that it is not my wish to anticipate any future discussion. I may, however, be permitted to allude to one fact, which is certainly of very considerable importance. As early, I believe, as the beginning of February, a circular letter was sent to the lord lieutenants of the several counties of the kingdom, announcing that a formidable and immediate attempt at invasion was expected by government. I believe, Sir, if such an opinion was entertained by government at that time, no circumstances have since reached them which can at all decrease their apprehensions of dinger. Since the period alluded to, there have, on the contrary, been reports which still more strongly countenance the idea of an immediate attack of the enemy, and believe it is now the opinion of many persons, that the enemy are only waiting the favorable moment to carry their threats into execution. Under such circumstances, I would call on ministers to consider, what would be the consequence of the suspension of the royal functions, if the enemy should, at such a crisis, succeed in landing on our shores? Before the volunteers could be called into action, it would be
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necessary to subject them to martial-law; I but how is this to be effected, if there is no I power in the state to issue the requisite proclamation? It is impossible for any gentleman to determine at what time the atttempt; of the enemy may be made. Even before we have left the place in which we are now assembled, intelligence of a landing may be received. Let me put it, Sir, to the right honourable gentleman, and to the House, in what situation the country would be placed, it, at the moment of invasion, the executive, authority was totally suspended? If even under any circumstances invasion would be formidable, it is needless to expatiate on the increase of this danger under circumstances such as those now alluded to. But, Sir, there are other points of a constitutional nature, which loudly call for the adoption of some measure, to supply the place of the temporary suspension of the royal functions. These are not points of small import, but, on the contrary, highly worthy of consideration. As a supporter and admirer of the constitution, I am desirous of seeing all its branches properly balanced. Let me ask then, whether it is not consonant, as well to the letter, as to the spirit of the constitution, that the executive authority should keep up a due influence over the legislative power? It is the undoubted prerogative of the Sovereign to preserve a certain degree of control over the legislature, as it is of the legislature to watch over the proceedings of the executive part of the constitution. Of these powers of the Sovereign, there is none more clear than his right of proroguing or dissolving Parliament, even at rive minutes notice. If this is s: clear principle of the constitution, I should be glad to know how this control is to be exercised, and it ought to be constantly and actively employed, in the tota labsence of the exercise of the royal functions? The right honourable gentleman has informed the House, that his Majesty's confidential servants do not think any communication necessary, How far it may or may not be necessary, is not a point for them to decide. This decision is the exclusive right of Parliament, I am really utterly at a loss to know on what principle this extraordinary confidence is called for—on what ground it is that they require the House to make them the judges, when the real state of the health of the Sovereign is to be laid before the legislature.—By what claim are they to decide as to the time of making a communication so interesting to all orders of the community? There is no book, there is no practice, there is no principle to justify the plea set up, of constituting the Kings ministers, after the func-

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tions of royalty have been suspended, the persons do determine what is most conducive to the public safety. Perhaps, Sir, I may hear a great deal of the responsibility which will attach to ministers. In no case could I consent to vest any set of men with extraordinary powers, from any promises of responsibility. But, more especially n capes where the most important interests of the state are involved, I should be particularly Jealous of conferring such powers. At a period when the very existence of the empire is at stake, it would be but a poor consolation to think that those who brought it to destruction were responsible for their errors and their crimes. When we see this reluctance on the part of ministers to communicate information, we are inclined to inquire, when the period will come when such a communication will be produced. Already a fortnight has elapsed, during which the functions of royalty have been confessedly suspended Another fortnight may elapse, and the House may remain as uninformed on the subject of the indisposition of the Sovereign, as at the present moment. In the first instance, no satisfactory information was afforded, and in the oilier case information might be with-held on equally solid grounds. What I require is, that the two Houses of Parliament should be apprised of the actual state of his Majesty's health, and thus be enabled to form an opinion of the steps necessary to be adopted for the public interest. At present no information has been given, and no grounds exist on which any grave deliberation can take place. It is impossible, Sir, to ascertain what is the limit to which the confidence required by ministers is to be carried. The system of blindfold, implicit confidence may go on from, day to day. The executive power, at all times necessary, but more peculiarly requisite at a moment of the greatest national peril, may continue to be suspended. What adds to the danger arising from this system is, that the danger which menaces the country is one which is repeated from day to day. No gentleman can pretend to fix the period when the great crisis may arrive, but government ought to have the best information, as on them this responsibility must rest. But, whatever may be the conduct of ministers, let not this House be deficient in their duty. Let us shew that we are impressed with suitable views of the whole circumstances of the empire, and that nothing on our part shall be wanting to contribute to its general honour, independence, and safety.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—Sir before I proceed to notice the other parts of
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the speech of the hon. gent. who has just sat down, I beg leave to make a few observations on a subject which he appears to have viewed in a very important light. The subject I refer to, is the particular description employed in my first explanation to the hon. Baronet, who introduced the question, where I spoke of myself and my colleagues, as his Majesty's confidential servants. In making use of this expression, I merely employed a term long used, and perfectly well understood in this House. In using it, it was very far indeed from my wish, to hold out, in the most distant manner, the idea that any confidential servant of his Majesty was at all freed from the gravest responsibility. I do not mean to dispute the position, that with this House must ultimately rest the determination, whether any steps may be supposed requisite to meet any extraordinary emergency arising from the suspension of the royal functions, or whether any measures beyond the common course of procedure may be adopted. The hon. gent., however, seems to insinuate, that there is, on the part of his! Majesty's ministers, a desire to with-hold communication when it is loudly called for by the circumstances of the country; on the contrary, Sir, I affirm positively, that there is, on our part, no unworthy wish of concealing any degree of information which, consistently with our duly, could possibly be disclosed. We are anxious that nothing which ought to be known should be withheld, while we are desirous of being regulated by that delicacy, which, on a subject of this nature, is, on all hands, allowed to be so important. His Majesty's ministers, in the conduct which they have hitherto pursued, have flattered themselves that they consulted the wishes and the feelings of a great majority of the House, as well as the public; and if they now abstain from any communication, it is from a sincere conviction, that it would be inexpedient, and that, instead of being subservient to any useful purpose, it might only furnish grounds for discussions, at all times to be reprobated but more especially to be avoided in the present circumstances of the empire. We are sensible, Sir, that in following this line of conduct, we subject ourselves to a most perilous responsibility. We are aware, that in the performance of our duty to the Sovereign, we are not to overlook what we owe to the safety of the country, at a period of unexampled danger. It is not calling for too much credit, to ask of the House, to believe, that before our determination was formed, these considerations were maturely weighed, and that the result of these determinations has been made

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liable to a responsibility, greater than ever was experienced We are not ignorant how far our obligation extends, and it is only after contemplating the subject in every possible light, that our resolution has been declared. I have to repeat then, as I said in the first instance, that any communication given under the present circumstances could afford no national advantage, while it might give rise to material inconvenience. The hon. gent. who spoke last will surely not contend, that on every occasion when, by temporary illness, the functions of the Sovereign are suspended, it would be either necessary or expedient to make a communication on the subject to Parliament. But, this, Sir, is the amount of his argument, if carried to its utmost extent. The hon. gent. will not contend, that the interference of Parliament is indispensably necessary, except in cases of extraordinary emergency, and I must be allowed to say, that the present situation of his Majesty is not one which falls under this general description. It has been argued, that the indisposition of his Majesty is not one likely to be or short duration, and in support of this, the official report of the physicians immediately appointed to attend the Royal Person, is adduced. On this point, I beg leave to make a few remarks, founded, not on light grounds, but the remit of the most careful and anxious inquiry. After having collected every possible degree of information en the subject, I feel it my duty, Sir, to state, that the last reports of the physicians attending his Majesty, furnish ne evidence against the speedy recovery of his Majesty. The fact is, that the report on which the hon. member has laid so much stress, was founded more on a wish to relieve that impatience which pervaded all rank of the community, than on any opinion that the disorder with which his Majesty was afflicted was of a lingering description. The report, Sir, I have no hesitation in saying, was more in conformity to this general feeling, than to any ordinary appearances of his Majesty's indisposition. On the authority of these gentlemen by whom the bulletin is regularly signed, I feel myself entitled to say, that comparing the present state of his Majesty's indisposition with what it was on the two former occasions, there is every reason to believe that the indisposition will be of short duration. A good deal has been said, Sir. of the consequences of the continuance of the suspension of the functions of royalty. No man can reflect on this subject without weighing well, what would be the effect of any determination which he might form. It is surely not presuming too far to put in a
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claim on behalf of myself and my colleagues, that, before we came to the resolution which I stated in the commencement of the debate, we endeavoured to revolve the subject with the greatest anxiety and care. The resolution taken was one not hastily adopted, not stated to the House without the amplest consultation. It was brought forward under the firmest impression of its necessity, and the most grave conviction of the responsibility which it necessarily involved. There is one point to which the hon. gent. alluded, on which I wish to make one remark. He seemed to suppose, that if, during the suspension of the royal functions, a landing of the enemy should be effected, no proclamation could be issued for calling out the volunteers, and placing them under martial law. In this idea, the hon. gent. is certainly mistaken, for the royal fignature, under the sign manual, is not necessary for such a proclamation. But even admitting that a such proclamation were necessary, the hon. gent. will not gain much in his argument. For, I am happy to be able to state, that even in the event of invasion, the business of government would encounter no sort of obstruction. I cannot at present enter on the statement of particular facts to establish this position, but shall content myself with assuring the House, that if any extraordinary occasion should occur for the exercise of the royal functions, there exists no obstruction to their exercise. Let me implore the House, therefore, not to listen to any proposition which can have the effect of embarrassing public business, or augmenting that anxiety, necessarily arising out of the present circumstances of the country. His Majesty's servants in calling for this conduct on the part of the House, are far from wishing to shrink from that responsibility, which must necessarily attach to their present policy. They have endeavoured to combine and compare the different circumstances in the state of the empire. On the one hand, they have thought of their calls of duty to the Sovereign, without for a moment losing sight of the still more imperious duty of consulting the safety of the empire:. It is not their wish to delay any communication, longer than necessity appears to require. They are anxious that premature information should not be pressed for, and they throw themselves on the candour of Parliament, subject to the gravest responsibility. To press such a communication at present, would, in my opinion, be unreasonable. To produce it under existing circumstances, appears to his Majesty's servants equally indecent and unwarrantable. They feel, that in with-holding it they act in a manner which

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their conscience approves, and they are convinced, that, had they acted otherwise, their conduct would have been universally condemned. It really, Sir, does appear to me extraordinary, that, whatever the opinion of gentlemen may be as to the necessity of a communication, they should endeavour to press the question of adjournment, at a crisis so full of interest, and so pregnant with danger. If a communication is considered as important, surely this is not the best mode of obtaining it. It will not be denied, that at such a moment as this, it would be highly inexpedient to interrupt the regular business of the legislature. If the country is in a state of danger, then it surely behoves Parliament to display more than common watchfulness and activity. So much, indeed, was I impressed with the imperious necessity of this House being assembled from day to day, that when I moved, on Friday last, that the adjonrnment should extend to Monday, I had almost prepared myself for some opposition. The motion of the hon. baronet does, therefore, greatly surprise me. It seems to have no sort of connexion with the question first submitted to the House, and I trust that on the present occasion it will not be entertained. I feel it important that the House should continue sitting; and how the hon. baronet, opposite to me, who is so desirous of a communication being made to the House, who calls so earnestly for information, can reconcile it with a motion for adjournment; I leave him to explain. I hope now, that the motion for the second reading of the volunteer bill, will be carried, there being no circumstances to justify any further delay of that measure.
Mr. Pitt.—Sir; I had not the good fortune to be in the House when the hon. baronet made his motion, and I am not quite sure that I now perfectly understand what the object of it is. I have, however, been informed, that the hon. baronet has made a motion for an adjournment, and that the ground he assigns for it is, that no regular communication has been made to the House upon a subject which so much interests the feelings of all classes of the community. I confess, that whatever opinion I may entertain upon the whole of that critical and anxious situation in which the country is now placed, and a more critical and anxious one never existed in the history of this country, I can not think that the motion for an adjournment is one, which, in any possible view of the subject, can be either expedient or proper. I certainly do feel, that if, unfortunately, the moment should come, which I most earnestly hope will
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never be the case, when Parliament shall be obliged to take cognizance of a suspension in the exercise of the royal functions, from that moment I think, on the constitutional ground staled by the hon. gent. opposite to me (Mr. Fox), that Parliament should be precluded from doing any act, except that of taking the necessary" measures for supplying the deficiency in the executive branch of the constitution; This is an opinion I have always entertained, and this is the conduct which was adopted by Parliament on a former melancholy occasion; and although, at the period to which I allude, there was a very considerable difference of opinion as to the particular mode which ought to be adopted, vet I believe the general principle which had been laid down was universally approved of. But I certainly do not think, that a mere general apprehension and impression, however well founded they may appear to be, that the personal exercise of the royal authority has been suspended, would justify Parliament in suspending all its other functions, unless that fact was communicated to them in a way that would render it necessary for them to take notice of it. If however, the regular reports of the physicians appointed to attend his Majesty, should induce gentlemen to think, that, it is the duty of ministers, under all the circumstances of the case, to take immediate steps for making a communication to Parliament upon the subject, it is not only proper, but it is the duty of those members who entertain that opinion, to inquire of ministers why they have not made such communication to Parliament? I confess I feel that it is a most difficult and arduous responsibility for ministers to determine, how long the communication ought to be delayed, and at what moment it ought to be made. Whatever my opinion of ministers may be on other points, I am sure there is no man in his Majesty's councils, who does not feel that responsibility which, great as it must be at all times, and under any circumstance, is, in the present state of the country, increased tenfold. Looking, as I do for one, with the feetings I have always cherished, to the possibility of reaching the moment of the complete restoration of his Majesty's health without the necessity of any interference on the part of Parliament, yet I certainly do feel, that, in the present critical situation of the country, we must count by days, and even by hours, in judging of the interval that ought to be allowed before the interference of Parliament becomes necessary, I must,

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therefore, say, that it would become ministers, well and maturely to consider the situation of the country, in deciding upon the line of conduct they ought to adopt. Ministers ought, and of course do know more of the state of affairs than other persons; the may be acquainted with circumstances, which may warrant them in thinking that a delay of a few days may be hazarded; but, every member in this House, every man in the country, knows that the country is threatened with a danger which may produce the most awful crisis it ever experienced. I, however, do not know to whom (unless upon a supposition of criminal negligence) except those persons who, in consequence of tills calamitous event, are left in the situation of his Majesty's actual ministers; I do not, I say, know to whom, except to them, belongs, in the first instance, the responsibility of communication. It is, undoubtedly, a very nice and difficult point to decide, what the actual situation of ministers is, because they are left in a situation, for which the constitution has made no provision. Without at present entering into that discussion, I am clearly of opinion, that they being up to the moment of the supposed inability of his Majesty to exercise his royal functions, entrusted with the management of public affairs, it is not possible that they can be displaced from their situations, or absolved from the duties of their offices, until the fact is ascertained by Parliament. I will not take upon myself to say how long the communication may be delayed, or at what moment it ought to be made; but, undoubtedly, 4be danger and pressure of the moment may, even against men's wishes and feelings, create a sort of impatience upon this point, and make it a public duty to call for direct communication to Parliament. I do, therefore, hope, that ministers will HOI, both for the sake of the Sovereign and of the country, push any feelings of delicacy, and sentiments of reverence and affection, which they, in common with every loyal man in the country, must feel; I hope, I say, they will not push those sentiments to the extent of endangering that, which has always been the dearest object of his Majesty's care, viz. the safety of those subjects whose happiness it has been the study of his life to promote. Having said this, God forbid that I should anticipate the melancholy moment of their being obliged, by the continuance of his Majesty's illness, to adopt any measure upon the subject; but, at present, I am of opinion, that the responsibility of making
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the communication ought to be left where it is now placed; and, whatever may be my opinion of the conduct of ministers upon other points, I cannot believe that they will push, to a dangerous and criminal excess, that awful responsibility which belongs to them. In the mean time, there does not appear to me to exist any circumstance which calls upon us to suspend all our Parliamentary duties: until that communication-to which I have before alluded be made to Parliament (and which I most fervently hope it will never be necessary to make) we are bound, by the duty which we owe to our country, especially in the arduous situation in which it is now placed, not to abandons our functions, or to. neglect our duties; for if any thing could aggravate the feelings of public affliction, or place the country in a stale of real danger, it would be if any sudden alarm should occur in the interval when the exercise of the royal functions was suspended, and when Parliament had abandoned its duty, and abstained from proceeding with the necessary measures; because, by preparing for the royal assent, they might accelerate the effect of any legislative measure which it might be necessary to adopt to strengthen the country in the present crisis. I feel the measure which is appointed for discussion this day, viz. the volunteer bill, as coming under this description; not indeed, the measure itself, at least in its present, shape, but the subject with which it is connected, because I think it may be made the means of giving us more substantial and effectual means of defence than those we now possess. I do not mean to say, that we have not now great and sufficient means of defence, but that they may still be more completely organised and consolidated. I am, therefore, most clearly of opinion, that whatever else it may become our duty to do, whether it may become necessary for us to institute a parliamentary inquiry or not, still that in the mean time we ought not to abandon our functions, but to proceed as tar as possible with those measures, which are calculated to add to the defence and security of the country; by which means we shall avoid the mischief of unnecessary delay and diminish the evil which must exist, even from the interval of interruption of the royal functions, which has already taken place. If, then, there be any weight in these considerations, hope we shall not now adjourn: indeed we ought not to adjourn, even upon the principles of the hon. baronet who made the motion; because, if further communication is necessary, most unquestionably the Mouse ought to sit to put itself in a situ-

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ation of hearing it. If any further interval is to elapse, before a communication takes place, still there is the same objection to the motion for ajournment; because, though I do not mean to throw out any insinuation against ministers, and though they have no temptation whatever to act wrong, yet it cannot for a moment be doubted, but, at such a moment, and under such circumstances, it is the duty of Parliament to continue sitting.—I Under these circumstances, I entertain a strong hope, that the House will look dispassionately at the present state of public affairs, because it is one which ought to suspend every idea of party dissention; this is not a moment for any man, or set of men, to endeavour to obtain a triumph over their opponents. The crisis is much too serious and: awful. The danger with which the country is threatened is great enough, without aggravating it by personal animosities or party dissentions. In mentioning the danger with which the country is threatened, I wish to be understood, that, in my opinion, nothing can render that danger fatal but a spirit of animosity prevailing among men of weight and consideration in the country. Unanimity is now more than ever desirable. I mean as to great and essential measures: as to the ordinary business of Parliament, I see no reason why the House should not debate them now, as well as at any other period, and therefore it is, that I am desirous that we should now, enter upon the business appointed for discussion this day.
Mr. Windham,I rise, Sir, to submit a few observations to the House, in consequence of what has fallen from different gentlemen in the course of this most interesting discussion. My right honourable friend who has just sat down, has argued this question, as if the adjournment proposed by the motion, was meant to take place for some time, and to suspend the Junctions of Parliament; but, assuredly, that is not the intention of the honourable baronet who made the motion; if it was, I certainly could not give it my support. The motion merely means, as I understand it, tin adjournment for this day.—Before, Sir, I proceed any further, I beg to return my thanks to the honourable baronet, who brought forward the present question. In making the motion which he has submitted to the House, he has performed a duty incumbent on every member of the House, but one which I am sorry to say, many of us would not have possessed sufficient fortitude to perform. For my own part, I am free to declare, that I should have left the House sorrowful and dejected, if the subject which
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the honourable baronet has brought under discussion had escaped animadversion.—In answer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I have to observe, that I have often, in the course of my parliamentary life, heard discussions about confidence, and have myself often argued upon the necessity of reposing a reasonable degree of confidence in ministers, but never did I hear it argued for, to the extent that it has been argued for this night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The whole substance of his argument amounted to this: "Here we are, his Majesty's confidential servants; we are in full possession of circumstances, but we will mike no communication, however urgent the crisis may be, and we claim responsibility. We call upon yon, the Parliament of England, to trust blindfolded to us, without any other security than our own responsibility." Now, without meaning, Sir, any thing disrespectful or harsh to his Majesty's ministers, this is a confidence which, in my opinion, ought not to be reposed in any ministers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has asked: "Upon every temporary illness to which his Majesty may be subject, will you go to the length of maintaining that it is necessary to apply for the interference of Parliament?" If I were bound to answer that question in strict conformity to the principle of the constitution, my answer would be, "yes." But it is very well known that general theories always admit of some mitigation, and, in certain cases, Parliament may connive at a short neglect of its dunes, but upon such a point there must exist some limitation,: but how is Parliament to ascertain what is the proper point of limitation, if, as in the present instance, they are deprived of all regular information? All the satisfaction that Parliament can obtain from his Majesty's ministers is this; "We know our duty, we act upon our responsibility, and therefore you, the Commons of England, must wait till we tell you that it is right and tit you should interfere." Against a doctrine so outrageous, so dangerous, and so unconstitutional, I do most solemnly protest. There never was, I will maintain, a doctrine so outrageous of all principle, and so pregnant with the most serious mischiefs.—It is one that has never before been advanced that whenever the Sovereign ceases from whatever cause, to have his regular control, the confidential servants of the crown are to carry on the government as long as they please, or until circumstances require an actual exercise of the royal authority. If you once admit the principle, it is impossible to say how long the country may be kept without an executive government. We have

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seen that ministers have, for a fortnight, suffered the functions of royalty to be suspended, and even now they think no communication necessary. How are we to know how long this system is to be continued? I really see no reason why, upon the principle now laid down, it may not be kept so for six months. My light honourable friend (Mr. Pitt) does not, indeed, go to the same length as the Chancellor of the Exchequer: he has displayed his usual judgment upon this question; but still I cannot concur with him in opinion, that the moment (though he admits it to be near) is not yet come in which the interference of Parliament is necessary. This is the real question before the House. Is the period arrived, or is it not, when Parliament can no longer trust to his Majesty's confidential servants? Let us consider in what manner and by what circumstances the present moment is distinguished from those which have preceded it? And whether, if we do not interfere now, there is any thing to make us interfere afterwards, except the lapse of time, which, as my right hon. friend has said, we must count upon this most interesting subject by days and by hours.—There are, let me remind the House, two moments to be kept in view, the moment of inquiry and the moment of proceeding. This question has been argued, as if the consequence of a communication to Parliament must be the immediate adoption of some measure to supply the deficiency of the executive government. But this is not the case. We do not call for any parliamentary proceeding, but for an inquiry: and upon the result of that inquiry it would depend, whether any further proceeding were necessary or not.—Now, Sir, the reports respecting the state of his Majesty's health are those only on which we can place any reliance; yet, what is very extraordinary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us, we are not to be guided by these reports. He not only says, you are to rely on me in preference, nay in opposition to the physicians, but he goes still farther, and tells you what the physicians mean to say. He is determined not only to declare against their opinions, but he is resolved, that they shall not be permitted to put their own meaning on their own words. The physicians say, that his Majesty's recovery can only be gradual; but the fact, says the hon. gentleman, is not so. "The physicians did, to be sure, put such language into the report; but it was not thus that their meaning is to be understood. They only used this language to quiet the popular anxiety, and to put an end to ru-
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mours out of doors; but I can give you certain information, that the report of the physicians is quite short of the truth, and that his Majesty is, at this moment, fully adequate to the functions of Royalty." Surely, Sir, this is to take a most unwarrantable liberty, both with the characters of the physicians who are described to have acted thus, and with the duties and dignity of the House to whom such a representation is addressed. To ascertain what these duties are, let us see what is the fact. It is now about fourteen days, since the House and the country received the alarming and afflicting notification, of the King's indisposition. The very notification proved that the illness could not be of a very slight or transient nature; and, undoubtedly, the general opinion was, that the illness, whatever was its kind, was in degree such as prevented for the time, the exercise of the Royal functions. The House decidedly acted upon this persuasion, having, by a sort of general agreement, than which nothing could be more proper nor more decorous, and in which the ministers had their full share, suspended all business that was not of a mere private or formal nature. What information has the House received upon the subject since that time?—the report of yesterday which precludes the hope of a rapid amendment. The facts thus stated, constitute the true description of the situation of the country. We know, by authority that his Majesty is ill: we believe his illness to extend to the degree that I have described; and we are now told that a rapid recovery from this illness is not to be expected. The country is, therefore, in a most alarming state, and upon the principle now laid down, it may continue in that state for any indefinite time longer. The House, in cases of this sort, may, for a while, dissemble its feelings; it may, for a while, turn away from its situation, and shut its ears to the call of duty; but can we go on in this way, when the knowledge of our situation is forced upon us, when we can no longer disguise to ourselves the facts, or deny the duty which those facts necessarily give rise to? I certainly hope that the physicians may turn out to be mistaken in their opinion; it is very possible that it may be so; but still that opinion is the only authority the House can act upon. I do not know, nor could the physicians themselves say with precision, what period they had in view, when they said a rapid recovery was not to be expected; but they certainly meant to acquaint the public that they were not to flatter themselves with the hope that his Majesty's restoration to

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health could be immediate. Can Parliament, with this knowledge before them, go on proceeding upon business as if nothing had happened? Can we, with propriety, go on at all? At all events, it appears to me that all business ought to be suspended, but that which is immediately necessary. With regard to the bill now before the House, no man can say that it is immediately necessary, though I agree with my right hon. friend, that the discussions connected with it are of the utmost importance. With the opinions entertain upon this subject, I certainly do not wish to have the discussion unnecessarily postponed, but it is singular, that ministers should now be so anxious to press forward the discussion, after they have postponed all public business for a fortnight. It is rather singular to observe the time at which they now call upon the House to proceed upon business; it is exactly the day after the physicians have! declared, that they did not entertain hopes of a rapid amendment in his Majesty's health. I again beg to repeat the question, at what period do ministers think that the House ought to interfere, or is it meant that Parliament should go on blind-folded, until those who have been chosen his Majesty's confidential ministers think fit to make a communication? I cannot reconcile this to any principle of the constitution, to the practice of Parliament, to any regard for the interests and safety of the Monarchy, or to any well-founded consideration of the interests and feelings of the Sovereign himself.—In what fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a little word "indecency" slipt in, upon which I cannot avoid making a few observations. That right hon. gentleman has spoken of the indecency of these discussions. I beg leave to say, that I have as just a sense and as deep a feeling of what is due to his Majesty's personal character and feelings as the honourable gentleman or any of his Majesty's ministers. In constitutional attachment to the Sovereign all loyal men must be presumed to be equal. It is saying little, therefore, to say that, in that respect, I shall not allow myself to be outdone by the honourable gentleman; but I shall as little allow myself to be outdone by the honourable gentleman, or any one else in that further sense of personal respect and attachment which may be felt by those who may have enjoyed, more or less, the honour of being admitted to his presence, who may have? witnessed more nearly his private virtues and his domestic happiness, and have received in various degrees marks of his royal condescension and favour. On no one of these grounds will I yield to any of his Majesty's
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confidential servants, nor allow that such feelings are in the smallest degree, called in question, by any thing that has been said by me or others on the present occasion. On the contrary, I do think it highly indecent in ministers to insinuate, that any measure proposed to be adopted for the benefit of the state, for the safety of the monarchy, and consequently for the service of his Majesty, is or can be in contradiction with the royal feelings. There is no ground for any remark of this sort. If Parliament did not, in the circumstances in which we are placed, call for further information, after so long a period has elapsed, after the information it has received from the physicians, it would, in my opinion, abandon its duty and disgrace its character, and I should have retired this night from the House with a mind dejected and sorrowful, if no member had made this inquiry, and if this discussion had not taken place.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,Sir; there are two points to which must beg the attention of the House. I rise for the purpose of denying that ever broached the doctrine which the hon. gent. who spoke last has attributed to me. I said that the argument of the hon. gent. opposite to me (Mr. Fox) seemed to imply, that there ought to be always an interference in that House whenever their was any supposed interruption in the personal exercise of the royal authority, but I never stated, that, if there was any delay on the part of his Majesty's ministers, the House was at all fettered in its discretion, or that the House might not, without any communication on their part, institute any proceeding which the House thought fit. The hon. gent. has also stated that I have set up my own opinion in opposition to his Majesty's physicians. All I can say on this part of the accusation against me is, that I have stated nothing as matter of speculation or opinion of my own, but upon the authority of the physicians. I wish to be distinctly understood here to restate, that there is not, at this time, any necessary suspension of such royal functions as it may be necessary for his Majesty to discharge at the present moment.
Mr. Canning,—Sir I feel, in common with my right hon. friend over the way, that the hon. baronet who provoked this discussion is deserving of the thanks of the House and of the country, and I am sure he will have them for the motion he has made Whatever difference there may be as to the mode, there is every reason to be satisfied with what has been done. The effect of the motion has been to procure much informa-

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tion. which would not have been given if the hon. baronet had not required it. If I understood the right hon. gent. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) right, he stated that if any emergency should arise, there is no physical cause why the royal functions should not be exercised by his Majesty even now This is a more consoling, and satisfactory communication, than anyone now present could have set out with the hope of receiving when he came down to this House. Whether it be well founded or not, rests entirely on the responsibility of his Majesty's ministers, and I do hope, that as the attention of Parliament has been called to this most important point, and warning has been given to ministers, that a strict watch is kept over them, the House will not be put back much beyond the proper time, as to any communication which it may be necessary to make. The only question now before the House is, whether, in contemplation of a more speedy termination of the calamity that has befallen his Majesty, than any one in the House expected this night, the House will put itself forward to meet his Majesty on the resumption of his royal functions, with those important measures which are most necessary to the safety of the country, or, by adjourning this night, leave the question which the hon. baronet has put, to be repeated to-morrow, without any greater chance of a satisfactory explanation. It does seem to me, that pressing the question to a division, may be attended with bad consequences. I am sure such consequences are extremely remote from what the hon. baronet had in contemplation in putting the question. The only practical difference in meeting tomorrow, if the question should be pressed to a division, will be, that the House will meet to-morrow with the bill appointed to be read a second time this night, one stage backward; but if, on the division, the present motion should be rejected, it will be a precedent for future unnecessary delay. I again return my thanks to the hon. baronet, for the information he has procured, and I hope that ministers will now feel, that the eyes of the country are more anxiously turned towards them, particularly since the explanations which have taken place this night. In expressing, therefore, my warmest thanks to the hon. baronet who has brought forward this motion, I entreat and implore of him, not to press it to a division, that the ministers may feel the weight of the responsibility which they have thought proper to take upon themselves. If it should be pushed to a division, I fear I shall, for
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the reasons I have stated, be under the necessity of voting against the adjournment; but if such a vole, if I should be put to the necessity of giving it, be construed into the slightest or most remote shadow of confidence in die present government, I shall be most egregiously misunderstood. Having stated these grounds for my request, I do earnestly entreat the hon. baronet to spare me the pain which I should feel, if I thought there was the most remote possibility of such a construction being but upon my conduct.
Mr. Grey.—Sir; after what has been said by my hon. friend near me (Mr. Fox), and the right hon. gent. on the bench below (Mr. Windham), I should not have risen for any other purpose than to obtain an explanation of an ambiguous expression which has fallen from the right hon. gent. opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer); an expression which would have a dangerous tendency if the ambiguity were not explained. I have felt, I am sure, in common with every one present, the highest satisfaction at the improved state of health in which the House is given to understand that his Majesty is in; but this satisfaction base nevertheless, been damped by doubt and suspence. When it was stated that there was not any necessary suspension of the royal authority, as to such functions as it may be incumbent on his Majesty to discharge, the statement was qualified, as to such functions as extraordinary circumstances may render necessary. I wish the report had been more large, and less liable to be divided by distinctions: for I cannot conceive a royal authority competent to some things and not competent to others. If the royal authority is, in fact, competent to some duties, but not to all, dreadful indeed, as the right hon. gent. under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) has described it, is the responsibility which those who state themselves to be his Majesty's confidential ministers have assumed. If they think the royal authority in the present state of his Majesty's health, competent to some things, and incompetent to others; they, in fact, take every tiling upon themselves. On this ground it is that I wish for explanation, for without explanation the assurance that has been given is incomplete. It would have been more satisfactory if his Majesty's ministers had been enabled to state, as a ground of the assurance they have given, that his Majesty communicated with them in the usual way and if they had not given it as an interpretation of the report of the physicians, when the words of that report appear so remote from any such interpretation. On this ground it is, that I

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wish not to enter into any minute discussion, but to have an explanation of a circumstance which I think most essential.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—Sir; I was in hopes that the observations which have fallen from the hon. gent. would have been prevented by what I stated. I meant distinctly to state, that there is not at this time any necessary suspension of the royal authority for any act which maybe necessary to be done.
Sir R. Lawley.—I rise, Sir, to assure the House, that it was not from any motive of impatience that I made this motion. It was because I thought Parliament was placed in the most unconstitutional situation. In the mind of every person present, the circumstances, urgent and pressing as they were, of the critical situation in which the country stood, wire enhanced by any suspension of the royal authority; it was on this ground that introduced the present discussion. I thought the House ought to establish some mode, by which the discretion of ministers should be bounded in matters of such essential moment. It is materially necessary that they should not be left at large, with no other limit than what they choose to impose on themselves. I do not desire to enter further into the discussion at present: I am ready to withdraw my motion if it be the sense of the House that I ought to withdraw it; but at the same time I think Parliament will not discharge the duty which it owes to the country, and which the country expects, if, after fifteen days of dangerous illness, it does not obtain a more complete explanation of the actual state of his Majesty's health.—I Here the Speaker put the question for withdrawing the motion.
Mr. Grenville.—Sir; I should be reluctant in such a moment to trespass upon the House, if it did not seem to me absolutely necessary to press more materially for the information which the question put by the hon. baronet has drawn forth from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The information that has been given, so far from relieving my mind, has excited sensations, which even my desire to comply with the wish of the House, in allowing the motion to be withdrawn, will not allow me to pass unnoticed. The distinct words the Chancellor of the Exchequer made use of were these, "There is not at present any necessary suspension of the royal functions for any act which may be necessary to be done."—Now, does this mean any thing else than that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it competent to him to decide what the royal authority was to be ap-
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plied to? Am I right? If I am not, I will spare the House the trouble of heating me to any further extent.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—Sir; I should have thought, that the answer which I gave to the hon. member on the opposite bench (Sir R. Lawley) would have precluded the necessity of the observations of the hon. gent. who has just sat down.
Mr. Grenville.—I do not know, Sir, whether any other member is in the same situation with myself: but I protest, that every thing I hear in the nature of explanation, so far from elucidating, serves only to cloud what the House is so desirous to be distinctly informed of; and it appears to me from the whole of these explanation?, as they are called, that there is a constant design and endeavour to divert the attention of the Mouse from the conduct of ministers on the subject, and the attempt to divert it is made only because it will not bear discussion. I own I agree in the opinion of my right hon. friend near me (Mr. Windham), that the theory of the constitution requires that, whenever the royal authority is suspended, at that moment Parliament should be informed of the suspension, not for the purpose of immediately proceeding to form new arrangements to supply the suspension, but for the purpose of deciding whether or not it ought to proceed, and whether it is not for the safety of the country that some new step should be taken. I can easily conceive many cases in which, on such information, the discretion of Parliament would adjourn the consideration of the propriety of adopting any new step; but Parliament being informed of the circumstances, should hold in its own hands the power of deciding, and not suffer it to continue in the hand of those who having been appointed the confidential servants of the crown, when the royal functions were in full exercise, continue to hold their functions after the suspension, till Parliament decides on the propriety of some new arrangement. I think it the more necessary to make this distinction, as those with whom I have conversed on the subject, look upon a communication, when properly made, as necessarily to be followed up with immediate proceedings for a new arrangement. When I speak of a communication properly made, I do not conceive that those who have been appointed the servants of the crown, when the royal authority was in its full exercise, are the proper channel for such a communication. The proper mode is, in my opi-

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nion, that the facts should be authenticated before the privy council, because that mode affords greater security; not that I mean to impute to any one the design of imposing on Parliament, or of exposing himself to the danger of Parliamentary vengeance, by an improper communication. When I dwell upon the difference of a communication by his Majesty's confidential servants, and a communication by the privy council, I am aware that I expose myself to the answer, that the confidential servants will say, there may be a difference of opinion in the privy council from want of information know of no such difference; the only real information on such points can Arise from nothing but the examination of the medical persons in attendance; so that in this respect, the confidential servant? and the privy council stand on the same grounds. Will not Parliament prefer hearing the evidence of the medical gentlemen at its own bar. This is the practice of the House in the case of Election Committees; a medical gentleman attends at the bar, to determine by the judgment pf the House on his elimination, whether there is such an interruption to his health as to prevent his resuming his functions in the Committee, and the Committee adjourns all business for a clay to give room for this determination. I am aware that this is but a light and trivial subject, compared with one of such vast moment as that now under consideration; but if it is right that the practice should be instituted and adhered to, even in trivial things, I cannot conceive it right to abandon it in matters of the greatest moment. Upon the whole, I cannot help giving it as my opinion, that this question ought not to be a question of confidence, it is the duty of Parliament to have information of the state of his Majesty's health from the best authority, instead of having it from those who style themselves his Majesty's confidential servants, and who give the information in different words from the host authority. The proper course has not been adopted. If proper information had been given, there is no doubt that every person in the House would have proceeded with the highest degree of temper and moderation; and would nor the people be better satisfied, when the Parliament was informed of what it was entitled and bound to know, and when it was attentive to the duty which it was to exercise upon that information?—The Question was now put on the motion for adjournment, and negatived without a division. The question was then put on the
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original motion for the second reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill.

VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.—
Mr. Grenvillesaid, that his Majesty's ministers having determined to give the House the liberty of resuming the debate, which they themselves had thought proper so long to suspend, it became his duty to offer such remarks as occurred to him on the proposed second reading. When the bill had been introduced by the Secretary of State, a good deal was said of the hopes which M ere entertained of temper and impartiality in the discussion, and as a motive of inducement to that temper and impartiality, the importance of the measure was dwelt upon, and an appeal was made to the feelings of the House, as to the duty of being impartial on a measure, which the right hon. Secretary represented as so essential to the country. That appeal had obtained due attention from all those to whom it was directed. It was impossible, indeed, to look to the situation of the country, without being penetrated with the necessity of discussing, with temper, every great measure proposed for its defence. If it were not for that situation, it would not now be necessary for him to take up the time of the House. The danger of invasion was such, as it was not necessary for him to dwell upon. If the country was on the day of invasion, to calculate every thing that had been done for its preservation, he was at a loss to conceive, how the present ministers could be justified. Had every step that had been taken been applied in the best manner to secure the country r However happy the man would be who could persuade himself of the affirmative, he could not envy his feelings, if they be founded on the passing of the bill now before the House. In adverting to the papers he had moved for, relative to what was called the volunteer system, he should briefly notice the points which seemed to him most worthy of attention. Much difference of opinion prevailed on the employment of the volunteers. He was one of those who were not against the volunteers in one sense, nor for them in another. He was therefore sorry for these two general distinctions. He was for the volunteers, because he thought the true and genuine British spirit called forth by pressing danger, a necessary ingredient in the force and defence of the country. He would say more, that such an array of that spirit may be made, as with the aid of a proportionate regular army, would make this country impregna-

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ble to any force that could be sent to attack it. In that sense, he was for the volunteers. If, on the other hand, he was told that it was impossible to look forward to any great increase of the regular army, as had been said by the Secretary of State, in opening this business, and that thence it was inferred, that the volunteer force should be made as nearly as possible a regular force, he conceived the object unattainable, and he thought the attempt to attain it could have no other effect than to exhaust the volunteer spirit; and to husband this spirit, which was the spirit of the country, was as necessary as to husband its finances. If he were to enter into the grounds of those opinions, his difficulty would be, how to ground upon the present bill any large or general view of the volunteer force. The Secretary of State, in introducing the bill, told the House, that two things were to be clone by it; first, that the exemptions were to be assimilated, viz.: those from the Militia and those from the Army of Reserve; secondly, to re-enact what was and is already law, and therefore unnecessary to be re-enacted, unless it were for the purpose of adding the condition of another resignation, the right of resigning. A bill confined to these two objects, would not admit of any large or comprehensive view of what was called the volunteer system, of such a view as it was the duty of the House lo entertain, and till it was entertained the House would not have done its duty. He should content himself at present, with a few remarks on what had obtained the title of the volunteer system; and he should appeal to the candour of every member of the House, and that of the country, whether, when ministers had given the assurance, that during the recess, they would devote their utmost attention to the perfection of the volunteer system; he would appeal, and ask, whether it was possible, that a measure requiring so much labour and attention, could be perfected by the present bill? No five persons were of the same opinion on this, which was called a system, as those who were called upon to execute it well knew. For the purpose of understanding what was called the volunteer system, he had taken the liberty of moving for copies of the letters addressed to the lords lieutenant. Even in the contracted view of the system which the bill imposed upon the House, the contradictions which appeared from the papers on the table, could not fail to make an impression. This afforded grounds for the re-
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marks which he was about to offer, and which he found it difficult to arrange. He should first observe on the letter, of Lord Hobart of the 20th of June, with-holding, the exemptions from the ballots. It was, cay to conceive the natural course to be observed in calling forth British spirit. But in the course followed by his Majesty's ministers, fear, hope, and appeals to the generosity of the people followed each other in the most extraordinary succession, without co-operating to any one possible result: Lord Hobart's first letter supposed that there was to be no exemption from ballot, except for certain descriptions of volunteers. From that it was supposed that there was some principle that was acted upon. In the part of the country lie lived in, and he was sure the same disinterestedness prevailed in other parts, there was no expectation of any exemptions; at least, the men were ready to come forward without any. Consequently, the effect of granting the exemptions, was, without procuring any real advantage with respect to the volunteer forces, to cripple the Militia and the Army of Reserve. When government had, in the first place, procured as many volunteers as they could obtain, they suddenly put a stop to the acceptance of offers, when they found that the exemptions, unnecessarily given, left no men for the ballot.—The next point in the papers was the indemnification for property taken by the enemy or lost. In that paper there was a paragraph well worthy of attention. In order to animate the inhabitants where the descent should be made, it was said, that it must, at the same time, be understood, that no indemnification was to be made for the property of such persons as were of age to aid the public service, and whose names were not on the roll, either as drivers, pioneers guides, &c.—Another point extremely inforesting, that of the election of officers, I had undergone a very useful discussion on the day on which the bill was introduced. The view was, whether the right existed; another, Whether if it did exist, it Was prudent to continue it. The Secretary of State had clearly explained, that the right was at first exercised, but that he would have thought it his duty, if it were afterwards? insisted upon, to advise his Majesty to refuse the services of the corps so insisting. The noble Lord (Castlereagh) who followed the Right hon. Secretary, on that occasion, with some little difference, maintained the same principle. But, in opposition to this, there were the public orders for the regulation of the pioneer corps, in which

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it was established, that no corps should consist of less than 25, nor more than 75, that they should recommend their own leaders; and, when the corps amounted to 50, they were to have a captain in addition to the leader. The next point was, the inconsistency of government in increasing the volunteer force, by (he acceptance of offers in every possible case. In the first instance, the volunteer force was to be increased by all possible means, where it had not reached a certain extent; a few lines below, it was mentioned by way of encouragement, that 25 firelocks were deemed sufficient for drilling 100 men. No explanation had yet been given of the omission of ministers to provide arms. If we had been taken by surprise, there would have been some excuse; but his Majesty's ministers had seen all along the continued offences of the French government, and they had themselves commenced the war in consequence. Under these circumstances there was no excuse for not having the arsenals properly supplied. It could not have been regarded as a symptom of hostility by the French government to have the arsenals thus supplied.—The object of his Majesty's ministers, with respect to the volunteer force, should have been to increase it as much a possible, without interfering with the ballots: not thinking of the probability of this interference in the outset, they found themselves embarrassed by it when they were not aware.—The right hon. gent. then proceeded to observe upon the circular letter of the 28th Sept. to the lords lieutenants of the counties, respecting the exemptions; wherein it is expressly stated, that if any members of the corps shall neglect to attend at the proper times and places of muster, and exercise, then such members shall not be entitled to the exemptions allowed by the act, and to which members regularly attending, are justly entitled. By this letter it was manifest, that the system upon which ministers built so much faith, was full of incongruities and inconsistencies, or it could not have been necessary for the rt. hon. Sec. to resort to that mode of explaining the meaning of the intention of the legislature.—He then referred to the opinion given by the Attorney general upon the subject of fines, which opinion was directly the reverse of that which the expounders of the law had delivered into the court of King's Bench, and which latter opinion, to the understanding and common sense of every person, must appear perfectly just. It served to shew the incapacity of ministers, and also the error into which the learned gent. had fallen,
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when boldly giving his exposition of their wise acts.—He then alluded to the erection of beacons in the different maritime counties, and observed, that, even in that respect, ministers had shown similar incapacity. In one county in particular, not less than four different orders were given; first, to erect the beacon: well, that was very proper to be done, but then came the question—"who is to pay for the erection?" a reference in that respect was given to the county; they refused, and the persons employed were then directed to apply to the general of the district, who was not apprized of the manner in which the correspondence was to be maintained; so negligent had government been of the ordinary language in which these communications were tube carried on! Then came a question, in what manner the beacon was to be erected? To this no answer had been given.—The next point, which he considered as one of very material importance, and to which some allusion had been made on the introduction of the bill, respected the days of exercise, which he understood to be 85. The letter of the 14th of Jan. 1804, stated that adjutants, Serjeant majors, &c. were to be employed in training the men, for which service they were to be remunerated with permanent pay, and the pay to be guaranteed to them, as the right hon. Secretary's letter expressly stales, by his Majesty's confidential servants, thereby making themselves the sole executive power of the country.—The right hon. gent. then adverted to the letter of the 1st of Feb. describing the apprehensions of government respecting an immediate attack from the enemy, and containing the opinion of his Majesty's law advisers. From the general contents of that letter, he inferred, that when once a volunteer had disclaimed the exemptions to which he might be entitled, he could not at any subsequent period claim them; thereby conveying to the mass of the volunteers, that in case they disobeyed the opinions and wishes of government, even though under the sanction of the law, as settled by the court of King's Bench, then the services of such corps might be discontinued at the option of his Majesty's ministers. Having at some length critically and minutely examined the different bearings of the acts, and the letters as connected with these acts, and pointed out what he considered as the deficiencies and defects, the right hon. gent. concluded with recommending the subject to the serious attention of the House, and expressing an intention of moving for a committee to enquire into the whole of the volunteer system.
Lord Ossulstonspoke at some length upon

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the subject, bat in so low a tone of voice, that he was perfectly inaudible. From what we could indistinctly collect, he seemed to approve of the system in general.
Mr. Secretary Yorkecomplimented the noble lord upon the acquisition which the House would obtain from his talents. He perfectly agreed with the right hon. gent. (Mr. Grenville), that the introduction of the bill would afford an opportunity to discuss the great question of the volunteer system in all its branches, and which discussion no one would be more anxious to meet than himself. Though he agreed in this particular, he must express his difference of opinion with the right hon. gent. as to the application of his speech to the bill now before the House. He had paid great attention to that speech, and could not distinguish any one part which he could adapt to the bill, until he came towards the conclusion. He, therefore, should not follow the right hon. gent. through the windings and turnings which he had taken to arrive at the point, but proceed to that point immediately; and he must take occasion to lament that the House had been so often troubled upon the occasion. The greater part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, was composed of hyper-criticisms upon a variety of circular letters, which did not apply in the least to the present bill. He would merely state the outline of it to call gentlemen's attention back, and then he trusted it would be suffered to go to a committee, where every one would have an opportunity of delivering his opinion, and strikeout any thing which might eventually contribute to the general perfecting of the measure. The right hon. gent. had been arguing, as if he conceived the bill was introduced as one compleatly perfect, and adapted to answer every purpose for which it was intended. It certainly was not so introduced. It was impossible on a subject of such great and serious moment that it could be rendered perfect all at ones. He had never considered it so. Time, experience, and attention were the best ingredients to make it perfect. The right hon. gent. bad stated, that before the recess, ministers had promised to re-consider the subject fully. Undoubtedly, such a promise was made, and had been acted upon, but then it did not of necessity imply a direct and positive pledge to bring a measure forward, which, in its formation, should be perfectly new. Every attention had been given on his part; and, the more he considered, the more he was convinced, that the less he attempted to do towards making the measure perfect the better, as it could
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only be perfected from the united efforts of the whole House. The right hon. gent. in his view of the subject, seemed to take two leading features, namely, with respect to the exemptions and the right of resignation; to the latter, some very material doubts were entertained. These doubts it was the chief object of the present bill to do away; and also by a consolidation of the other existing laws relative to the volunteers, to clear up any misapprehension upon the subject, and get rid of those verbal incongruities of which he now so strenuously complained.—With respect to the papers to which he had alluded being "the system of the volunteers," he could assure the right. hon. gent. that no such title had been given by government. The only passage in the right hon. gentleman's speech which referred to the bill, was that in which he staled, that he conceived the better plan to be adopted would be to postpone the further consideration of the measure, in order to give an opportunity for forming a committee of inquiry, to examine into the system in general, and thereon might be founded a new bill, preferable, in every respect, to the present one, and calculated to provide for the defence and security of the kingdoms.—This, however, in his opinion, would be an unnecessary postponement, because, if the present system is radically bad, then it must operate? as a good reason with gentlemen to propose; another, which might be done without the trouble of forming a committee. Understanding, however, the right hon. gent. to be friendly to the system in general, he should not advert to the arguments which had formerly been used, but merely confine his observations to the institution of the system, and he must take occasion to observe, that he had never said the regular army could not be augmented; on the contrary, he thought it might admit of considerable augmentation; all that he meant to assert, when speaking on the subject formerly, was, that the present time was not favourable for such an augmentation, when the relative situation of France and the rest of Europe was considered. The militia of Gt. Britain at present consisted of 90,000 men, that of Ireland of 18,000 only, list war 28,000. No augmentation in the militia could take place, considering the disposition of what is termed the regular forces. His Majesty's government, therefore, was of opinion, that in order to complete the defence of the kingdom, a compulsory or voluntary system should be resorted to. The latter was resorted to, and it would be in the recollection of every gent., that at the time

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it was first resorted to, no proposition met with such general support. The House approved of it, and awarded its thanks to the volunteers, both at the end of the last war, and previous to: he late recess, on the motion of an hon. gen. (Mr. Sheridan), not now in his place. He merely mentioned this, to shew, that the right hon. gent did not discountenance, or very highly blame the system. There were two descriptions of volunteers, namely, those trained and exercised under the compulsory clauses included in the first class; and, 2dly, those formed under the acts originally framed upon the subject. This distinction, however, would be obviously siren, that in case of actual invasion, or the appearance of the enemy upon the coast, those enrolled as volunteers would be liable to serve the same as the first class, which class would, upon vacancies arising in the regiments of the line, be turned over to fill up these vacancies, as his Majesty might think fit. Volunteers of the former description, therefore, could not be entitled to exemptions claimed by the latter. He would ask. gentlemen whether so large a number as that composing the present volunteer force could be got together, without producing considerable dissatisfaction, upon the terms which some were inclined to suppose? It never was the intention of government that the class alluded to should be entitled to the exemptions further than from service in the militia.—With respect to the exemptions from the army of reserve, to which the right hon. gent. had adverted, it was never in the contemplation of his Majesty's government, and had been so expressly-stated, that no volunteers entering subsequent to the 22d June, should be exempt from the ballot for the army of reserve, but those who entered bonâ fide previous to that period, were to be entitled to the exemptions. The doubts entertained were, whether or not these corps having been accepted under the general provisions of the defence acts, were taken out of the provisions by the subsequent volunteer act. This question was submitted for the consideration and opinion of his Majesty's law officers. He had to congratulate the House that upwards of 500,000 men entered of the first class, of the ages from 17 to 45, unmarried; when once a man entered the volunteer corps he would be much more likely to make a good soldier. Nay, the volunteer system so far from being injurious, was advantageous to the recruiting service in general, in proof of this, he instanced two corps, the Norwich, and the St. George's volunteers, from both of which the military habits acquired by die men had
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induced them to inlist in the regulars, in a far greater proportion than the same number of men otherwise would have done, during both the last and present war. From the St. George's corps, from 11th March, 1795, to 1801, out of 600, or at most 780 men, 94 had entered the navy, and 337 into other regiments. During the present war, from the same corps, 40 had already inlisted. So, of the Norwich corps, consisting of 300, 25 had, during this war, already entered the army He mentioned this to shew that the volunteer system did not retard the recruiting the army of reserve.—With respect to the election of officers on which some strange opinions had been formed, the right hon. gent. seemed to think there were two points presented themselves; 1st, as to the matter of right in the first formation of the corps to elect their own officers; and, 2dly, in case of vacancy, the right to supply that vacancy by ballot. The right hon. gent. must have completely mistaken him, if he supposed that, on a former occasion, he had even admitted either the one claim or the other. It had never been recognised by any act of the legislature, nor was it in fact the intention of government to give that right. No such faith had been pledged, in this instance; but where it occurred it ought to he considered on the part of government as sacred. It was a totally different thing from the first formation of the corps, and their subsequent efficacy as a military body. In the first instance, it might be requisite to allow them to present officers for the approval of the colonel commandant, by him to be transmitted to the lord lieut. of the county, from thence to the Sec. of State, and from him to the throne, for the approval of his Majesty. The impolicy of canvassing for the election of officers would be obvious. Suppose the corps were called out into actual service, and a vacancy of 3 or 4 officers in each corps was to arise, the time that would be taken up in canvassing and balloting to supply the vacancies would be of the greatest detriment to the service. In fact, the point of practice in this particular had been completely settled, there was, consequently, in his opinion, no necessity for going into the discussion. The right hon. gent. then adverted to the observations made by Mr. Grenville, with respect to the arms for the use of the volunteers, and contended that if any gentleman thought blame imputable to government for not making a better provision in that respect, the same degree of blame would attach upon the government during the last seven years of the late war. In order to shew that his Majesty's present government were more upon

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the alert, and provided better for the defence of die kingdoms he would state a list of the quantity of arms in the Tower, and the several out ports, for several years past. In 1755, previous to the breaking out of the seven years war, there was 36,098 stand of fire arms in the Tower, &c.: in 1775, during the American war, 98,488: in 1783, at the conclusion of the war, 94,786: in 1790, during the Spanish armament, 92,131: in 1793. commencement of the French war, 53,482: and in 1803, at the commencement of 'he present war, no less than 329,246 stand of arms; he did not state this to hew any superior attention of the ordnance department, but merely to prove that government bad no; been remiss With respect to the number of arms delivered out:—In the beginning: of 1803, there were delivered out 101,034 stand of arms, and up to the 27th of Feb. of the present year (the day on which he was speaking), the quantity of 365,426 stand of arms, exclusive of pikes, &c. amounting to 18,000. Of this number 217,196 were delivered to the volunteer of Great-Britain, and 32,051 to those of Ireland. A very considerable portion of arms had been furnished at the expense of the volunteers themselves; and from the best information which he could gain, upwards of 250,000 fire arms had been provided, for adding to the general defence of the country. Every thing on the part of government had been done which was practicable.—He then took notice of the letter alluded to by the right hon. gent. as to the resignations. He did not mean to defend or speak in favour of the style, for it was written by himself; but he wished to explain to the House, that he meant they should be dismissed from: their corps, as a punishment for not having done their duty in such a manner as they ought to have done. He might, perhaps, be asked, why, if he thought so, he had so industriously circulated the opinion of the Attorney General? His answer to this was, that a difference of opinion having arisen in the minds of many on this subject, it had been deemed necessary to take the legal opinion of his Majesty's great law-officers, the Attorney and Solicitor General; and these gentlemen, after a mature consideration, thought, that from the nature of the contract, and the tenor of the several acts of Parliament, the volunteers could not resign at their own will and pleasure. As soon as these opinions were received, he thought it then immediately became his duty to circulate them as widely as possible, both for the benefit of the volunteers, and the justices, who were liable to be called on to act in
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many cases when fines were fixed, to be levied by them; and under such circumstances, he would be glad to know what any gent. would have said to him, in case he had not circulated them antecedent to the recess? The meeting being very short, it was desirable to avoid all differences as to the volunteer services. Since then, the opinion of the King's Bench had decided that the volunteers had at present a right to resign, but that when called out there could be no doubt they were bound to serve.—He said, that on the subject of beacons, the lords-lieutenants communicated with the generals of the district in the maritime as well as the inland counties; and the generals of districts with those who were to carry them into execution. He acknowledged that some difficulties had arisen as to the expense; but it was now settled, that where there were naval signals the Admiralty should pay the expense; and where they belonged to the interior, it should be defrayed by the commander in chief.—Having thus gone through these several heads, he wished the House to suffer the bill to go to a Committee, in order that it might receive the benefit of the united wisdom of the House. He should for one, be ready to listen to all amendments; but he hoped gentlemen would content themselves with doing no more than was necessary. The system being altogether voluntary, too much coercion and strictness might be found inconvenient. The first inducement of the volunteers to offer their services had been the love of their country, and the ardent desire and enthusiasm they felt, as well as the necessity there appeared to them that they should take up arms for its defence and security. Every thing should, therefore, be done that could render their services effectual; and he had no doubt but the volunteers would be found fully adequate to the high raised expectations that had beer formed of them, and that they would prove an invincible bulwark of defence for the protection and security of all that was near and dear to them and to the nation as freemen and Britons.
Mr. Pitt.—Sir; from the opinion of the right hon. secretary of state, that this discussion should be confined within narrow limits, and should apply solely to the consideration of the measure immediately before the House, I decidedly differ; and with the sentiments of my right hon. friend on the lower bench (Mr. Windham) that we are now called upon to take into view every thing connected with the national defence, I entirely concur. Although the volunteer

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system naturally forms the first subject for our deliberation, as it is the principal feature in the picture, and that upon which we must, under all the circumstances, ground our reliance for ultimate security, yet the army, the militia, and all the other branches of our public force press upon our attention, and require to be examined upon the present occasion. Whether the volunteer system be radically wrong, or inadequate to its object, is not, he question proper for the House now to consider; bat how far any defects, which experience has rendered manifest in its original formation, may be removed, and how the detail of the measure may be improved; how far, in a word, it may be rendered efficient. This, in my judgment, is the turn which the debate should take. With a sense of the situation in winch the country is placed; of the danger which has been so long suspended over us, and of the crisis which, according to all appearances and information, is so rapidly approaching, we should devote ourselves to the consideration of the best means of amending and advancing to perfection, the only force of equal magnitude now within cur reach; to devise, not only how this force is to be prepared for the first approach of the danger which menaces us, but how its spirit and efficacy may be preserved and made, competent to meet the full extent of the danger, and effectually to guard the country. That the enthusiasm which may enable men to meet the first attack, can last long, it might be permitted to hope; hut that it would, no rational man would be very sanguine in calculating upon. It becomes, therefore, necessary to communicate to the volunteers every instruction that is practicable, in order to assimilate them to a regular army. That it is impossible fairly to investigate the nature and tendency of the volunteer system, without referring to the regular army and militia, I readily admit, and that it is proper to inquire how far any farther augmentations of the one or the other is practicable or desirable; also how far the volunteer system interferes with either of these objects. But these are topics upon which I shall trouble the House by and by. At present I wish, principally, to dwell upon the methods to be resorted to, in order to communicate to the volunteers all the instruction they want, and to the system all the improvement of which it may be susceptible; for I am certain that this must form the great basis of our Strength, the important instrument of our defence, the medium by which we must contrive to bring the country safely out of its dangers, and to lay
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asleep those apprehensions which, from the calamitous destinies of the present times, have been excited by a gigantic power suddenly erected, to disturb the world, to desolate a large portion of Europe, and to lay the foundation, if not resolutely and vigorously resisted, of future and incalculable misery. Such resistance it is become the fate of this country to make, and I trust it will be its glory effectually to accomplish. That its resources and the zeal of the people is competent to the undertaking, and the achievement, no man can doubt; that zeal which has been displayed in a manner so extraordinary as to surprise even the most ardent admirers of the British character, and to gratify the most anxious friends to British independence; that zeal which has not I merely seconded, but far outrun the wants of the country, and very much indeed the wishes of the government. Into the principle of the system upon which the force produced by this zeal has been constructed [shall not now inquire. That is a point which has been already amply discussed, and satisfactorily settled. The question fairly is, whether in addition to our regular army and militia, it is practicable to procure, from the population of the country, a force sufficiently large to meet the magnitude of the dangers which threaten us by any other and better means. It does not appear to me that we could. Certainly, as to the amount of the force, an equal number could not be collected by any other than compulsory means; and if the volunteer plan were abandoned, those means, however obnoxious, must have been resorted to, or the security of the country would have been very precarious. From those considerations approved of the volunteer system. At all events, whatever the imperfections of that system may be, I feel that I cannot be contradicted in the assertion that no other can be now looked to as a substitute. The thing cannot be done away. The danger is too near and imminent to allow of a total change. It is the system to which we must resort to meet the present difficulty, and I will go further and say, that it is that, if carried to the degree of perfection of which it is capable, upon which we might calculate, in combination with other descriptions of ordinary force, for the future and permanent security of the empire.—Bur, whether this system may or may not be brought to that state of discipline which seems necessary to reconcile my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) to its existence, I contend that this is not the time to think of removing it altogether, of treading back the steps we have taken, of providing another

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force at a time when the danger is at our gates—when, as one might say, we are within gun-shot of the enemy. This, surely then, is not the moment to entertain such a proposition; and if not, the improvement of the system that is established is, of course, the object for our deliberation. Whatever differences of opinion, therefore, may prevail between the right hon. gent, on the opposite bench, (Mr. Fox) or my right hon. friend on the bench below him (Mr. Windham) and me, I must naturally expect from them, that they will not differ with me on this point, whatever they may wish to do at a future period,—that, when we are inexpectation of an immediate attack from the enemy—when the danger is announced from the highest authority to be close upon us, and when we are about to encounter a tremendous storm raised by a power the most gigantic, perhaps the world has ever seen?—when we are threatened by an attempt on our liberty and existence, dictated by slavish power and inordinate ambition, it behoves us to consult our immediate security, and not to allow of even the idea of disbanding so large a body as 400,000 men, however imperfectly constructed they may be. We should rather examine how far this force may. be rendered effective; and, with this view, I shall state to the House the mode that, in my judgment, ought to be pursued. How far ministers have failed, heretofore, in the performance of their duty with respect to the volunteers; how far they have wished to carry into complete execution the system of which they appear to approve, I will not now stop to inquire, farther than to say, that they should have been more attentive to promote the regulation of the several volunteer corps. They should have communicated more precise instructions through the medium of the lords-lieutenants of counties, as to the best method of training the volunteers, of procuring a regular attendance at drills, and enforcing attention to discipline when there. These are points of arrangement very material to consider, and ministers should even now, and I hope it is not too late, look to objects of so much consequence. I do not mean that any superfluous directions should be given to the volunteers, nor do I ask to have them trained up in the way in which the advocates of an armed peasantry would recommend, who seem to imagine that such peasantry could be converted into that quality of force, namely, light troops, for which, of all others, they are least qualified. But, I would have the volunteers instructed in all the necessary evolutions, and this I am decidedly of opi-
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nion, would be far the best course to pursue, particularly as it must be admitted, that, under existing circumstances, it would be quite absurd, if not dangerous, to think of proposing a new system to supercede that of the volunteers. To promote this improvement in the discipline of the volunteers, is a thing so obviously necessary, and so highly desirable, that I should hope no minor difficulties will be allowed to stand in the way, that no mistaken or narrow notions of economy will operate to impede such an important object, but that the volunteer force will be rendered as perfect in military discipline, as the nature of the institution, the peculiar character of its members, and the proximity of our dangers will admit. What I speak of the dangers of the country, I do not mean it to be understood although I think the system of our defence has made a progress far short of what it might and ought to have done, that even with our volunteer force, so imperfectly instructed as they are, with our other resources, I should feel any dread for the result of meeting the most formidable attack the enemy can possibly contrive to make; but yet I feel that the House will not have performed its duty if, after the solemn warning it has received from ministers themselves, of the near approach of the enemy, any thing that can be done shall by any possibility be neglected; that any contrivance shall be overlooked which can at all enable us to contend, I will say collectively and individually, with the powerful and inveterate enemy that disturbs us, and to contend with such effect as not only to accomplish his final discomfiture, but to convince him and his infatuated adherents, that any attempt to invade and subjugate England can only originate in the wildest ambition, and must terminate in disgrace and ruin to the army that has the hardihood to venture it. We must make such efforts as to fix a lasting impression, not only on the enemy himself, but on the rest of Europe, that the man who, led on by confidence and daring to attempt the subjection of England even single-handed, shall meet the fate that the pride and courage of Englishmen, animated by a just estimate of their liberty, and other advantages, must ever prepare for any invading foe. We must leave in this contest such an example to our posterity, as shall be honourable to ourselves and conducive to their security. We must not look alone to our defence against danger. Much more important consequences must be achieved. As to the extent of time which the contest is likely to occupy, should the enemy succeed

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in making good a landing in any considerable force, no man can pretend to say positively; but it is the peculiar duty of Parliament and government to provide for every event. It will not be enough that such. provision should enable us to come victorious out of our contest with the enemy. Our triumph must be signal and decisive. We must resist the en my at every toot of his progress; bur we must take every care that no unnecessary sacrifices shall be made, that the blood of our countrymen shall on every possible occasion be spared. To these points it is our imperative duty to attend; for, surely, if ever there was a great trust confided to the liberality and justice of Parliament, it is the means of protecting the lives and blood of their felloe-citizens, who have rushed forward to the post of danger, when he safety of their country was menaced. We should not consent to purchase our security by the sacrifice of cur countrymen, if such a sacrifice could at all be avoided. From these considerations, I conjure the House to point their attention particularly to the consideration of the means of rendering the volunteer force as efficient as possible. That much yet remains to be done, and for which this bill does not provide, I reel the most perfect conviction; and, although I am of opinion that it would be better the alterations in detail, which I think necessary, should originate with his Majesty's ministers, who are best qualified to give complete effect to such alterations, yet my sense of duty will not suffer me to neglect the propositions which appear to me eligible. To these propositions shall strictly confine myself, and abstaining from all allusion to whatever I may think on the present state of politics, or to the conduct of ministers hitherto, I shall apply myself solely to the examination of our national defence. That appears to mc be the first and most interesting subject. It ought to occupy the attention of every man. It. is quite enough to fill the mind of any man. This, therefore, claiming my consideration, in preference to every other subject, I look with great concern to the imperfections of the volunteer system, recollecting that it is pushed to an extent, far beyond any thing that was foresee when the country was first declared in dinger; and, considering its present magnitude, I regret to find tint it is not more advanced in military quality, that it is still extremely inadequate to its object, and that she proper means of promoting its discipline have not been as yet adopted. These means, which I deem most material, I conceive to be; 1st, the opportunity of regular instruc-
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tions; 2dly, the seeming attendance at drill. and 3dly, the enforcing silence, steadiness, amp;c. when at drill. On the first of these points, I beg to ask of any thinking man, whether it is possible for the volunteer to acquire a sufficient knowledge of the simplest part of military discipline, by attending drill only 20 days in a year, and, generally, not more than two or three hours each day—particularly taking into account the inadequacy of the instructions, amp;c I am aware that these arguments may be said to offer objections to the system altogether; but these objections I fee! to be removable, by attending to the alterations I have suggested and shall hereafter propose. What may be done at a future time, I shall not now enter into, but merely confine myself to the manner in which they should make the best use of the time that yet remains to prepare them for the impending danger; and this preparation should be stimulated and encouraged by the cond.net of Parliament. The. spirit of our gallant volunteers, so long tried by susperce, may be otherwise relaxed. Danger being so often menaced and so long suspended, their zeal may be weakened, unless Parliament shall do its duty by giving to those valiant patriots every possible means of rendering their exertions in the cause of their country completely effectual. This done, and your views fully explained, I am persuaded that the volunteers will accede to any proposal that the necessity of the case may suggest. Such is the nature of the minds of Englishmen, that I have not the shadow of doubt, that there is no difficulty which they would not encounter, and no privation to which they would not submit, when they shall understand that such difficulties and privation are necessary to succeed in the glorious cause committed to their charge, of rescuing their country from danger, and establishing the security of their countrymen. In order, then, to promote the efficiency which I have in view, I would propose, that the volunteer corps should be encouraged to go on permanent duty, suppose for a week, or two, or three, as was the case last summer in particular districts on the coast, always taking-care to assemble the corps in the place convenient to their native home. For this purpose, I should propose that a small bounty be given to each volunteer who would consent to march on such permanent duty, namely, 7s.Per week, independently of 1s. per day, to every volunteer who should so march. This plan would, I am persuaded, do more towards promoting discipline and military habits among the men, than any drilling at different and detached periods. I

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had an opportunity of witnessing the salutary effects of such a system last summer. About 2 or 300.0001. Would be quite sufficient to defray the expence of it. Surely it cannot be pretended that Parliament manage with judgment and integrity the purse of their constituent, if they refuse to open it, in order to advance this sum for a purpose of such high importance, to save the lives and property of the people, and to bring the contest in which we are engaged to a speedy and glorious conclusion.—Now, as to the mode of instructing the volunteer corps, I mentioned before Christmas very fully the propriety of appointing field officers, &c. to such battalions as applied for them, and I am still of the same opinion, as none of the arguments which have been advanced against my recommendation appear to me to have any weight, and as I know, from my own observation, the advantages that would result from it. I would propose that the instruction of volunteer corps should be assisted by the regular officers stationed in the several districts, particularly those on the coast, on some parts of which no less than from SO to 100,000 men might be speedily collected. I would also recommend the adoption of some system, not harsh, to enforce attendance at drill, which is particularly necessary. This might be done by regulations, to which each man might subscribe, Imposing fines on defaulters, rendering the. In attention at parades liable to arrest and detention, until tried be force a magistrate, who should have the power of commuting any line for a short imprisonment of two or three days. I agree with the right hon. mover, that no change should be made in the volunteer regulations that is not called for by absolute necessity, and of such a nature do I conceive the proposition I have submitted; so, I believe, almost every man who tins witnessed their parades must confess; and when the cause and object of this change should be explained to the volunteers themselves, I am satisfied none of then would be found to murmur, much less fore sign, particularly when such communication should be accompagnied by the intimation contained in this bill, that they might resign it they did not think proper to remain on such conditions.—As the right of volunteers to recommend their officers, about which so much has been said, it strikes me that there is no material difference upon that point, if gentlemen would endeavour truly to understand it. While a controul was acknowledged to exist in the commanding officer of each corps, in the lords lieutenants of counties, and finally in ministers, the clang was frivolous to insist on; and yet it would be
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dangerous to concede it, even m appearance. I have at the same time a wish and a hope, that a commanding officer will, upon occasion of any vacancy, consult with temper the sentiments of the corps, but net in any thing I like the forms of a popular election, to take their individual suffrages.—Here the right: hon. gent, entered into a comprehensive review of the progress of the regular army and militia since the commencement of the war,; and contended that neither the recruiting of the one, nor the balloting of the other, was so much impeded by the increase of the volunteers as some gentlemen seemed anxious; to impress on the minds of the Mouse, while I bethought, on the contrary, that the volunteer system would, by proper modifications, I tend to the regular maintenance and progressive augmentation of our public force. The complained of slowness in the ballot for the army of reserve and militia might be easily accounted for, from the circumstance of the great number to be balloted for in the first: year of the war; and this, independently of the volunteer system, was sufficient to produce a considerable difficulty in recruiting for the army. To provide a resource to recruit the regular army, he would propose; that a system, somewhat modelled on the principle of the army of reserve, should be kept up, and that from that body any that should volunteer for general service should be supplied by fresh ballot. One reason for this plan was, that the army should not altogether depend on the contingency of an ordinary recruiting; and another, that the. militia should be held sacred, and that no volunteers for general service should be sought for from that body in future. The proportion between this army of reserve and the militia to be fixed, and that the militia should be gradually reduced from its present establishment, to its old standard, and that according as vacancies may occur in that body, a ballot should take place for an equal; number, not to fill up such vacancies, but to go I to the army of reserve. Thus as the one body was reduced the other would be augmented, that the change hiving a gradual operation, would not be likely to produce confusion in any: branch of our public force. He was aware, however, that this proposed change would incur some unpopularity, and some pressure; on the parishes; but to this he would say, that such pressure ought to be softened, if they could not be remedied, and if they could not be remedied they ought to be endured. To this he had no doubt the people would submit cheerfully, when they reflected on the value of the object for which they bad to contend, and that nothing could di-

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minish their devout gratitude to Providence upon a comparison of their situations with those countries which, neglecting timely precaution, and refusing perhaps to suffer small losses in the first instance, committed themselves to the will of that power which now employed all its resources to assail this country. The right honourable gentleman particularly urged the introduction of a plan to limit the bounties to be given to substitutes, that it should be always less than that to recruits for the regular army; the bounties to which also should be limited, in order to put a stop to the proceedings of those pests to society called crimps.—He thought it would be wise to allot a certain number of regiments to be recruited in certain counties; and that the recruiting officer should be stationary in such counties. Thus he conceived the recruits would be more easily-obtained, through the connection that would grow up between the people, the recruiting officers, and the regiments to which they might belong; and the consequence of the system would produce an esprit de corps that would be highly advantageous.—The right hen. gent, took notice of the propriety of attending somewhat more to the system of fortifications, and also improving our naval defence, which he stated from his own knowledge to be very defective. While our danger was greater, and our resources also, than at any termer period, he complained that our state of naval preparation was much lower. He declared, that in this statement he was not influenced by the slighest prejudice against any man; on the contrary, in the whole of his observations he wished to keep aloof from every description of asperity, which he thought ought not upon any account to be introduced in the course of this discussion. his was not a time for the operation of any party spirit. Every mind should be engaged, every heart should be devoted, to the consideration of the public defence, and in the prosecution of it he hoped that ministers would weigh well the sacred duty they had to perform, the awful responsibility of their situation. It would not be enough for them to say that cur preparations were great, they ought to be complete. He might be told that the danger was not so great as he imagined, and that the state of our preparations was much greater; perhaps such was the fact, but he spoke the sentiments which all appearances, among which were the declarations of ministers themselves, fully justified. The right hon. gent, concluded with stating, that he bad many other observations to make on the several projects he had mentioned, but should waive them
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till a future opportunity. In the mean time he declared that he was not so obstinately attached to any opinion of his own as to decline, upon such an important subject, giving the utmost attention to the suggestion of others.
Mr. Windhamwas of opinion, that the bill was inadequate to the object which it professed to have in view, that it would not be productive of any real or lasting advantage, and that it would end in smoke. His right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) had defended the system, principally on the ground that it was particularly necessary at the present moment, when, from the urgency of the case, no measure of equal advantage could be devised. This was, however, in his opinion, by no means a decisive mode of arguing. We were not called on merely to provide for the exigency of the present moment, but to consider what would be the species of force which would be adequate to our future defence. The danger against which we were called on to provide, was not one which must infallibly assail us at the present moment. We could not prescribe the conduct of the enemy who threatened us; nor could we know whether the majestic preparations which he was making were brought to full maturity, and would be ready to attack us tomorrow, or for twelve months to come. The enemy by whom we were at present menaced, was undoubtedly one which we were called on by every tie to repel; and to do so with effect, and certainty of success, the whole population of the country, he thought, ought to be employed,—So far, therefore, he was an advocate for voluntary service; but he could not agree that the voluntary force to be employed ought to be of the nature contended for in the present bill. His right hon. friend had pointed out the danger of a sudden diminution of the volunteer establishment. He unquestionably did not wish that any precipitate step of that nature ought to be adopted. He agreed with his rt. hon. friend in thinking, that terror was not the mode of procuring a continuance of a voluntary offer of service, and, on that principle, he approved of the option given to volunteers to withdraw their services, as being the best means of encouraging their continuance. The conditions, however, with which that option was clogged were so unpalatable, that he was convinced the measure would not succeed, but that many would avail themselves of the option and withdraw. His great objection to the present volunteer system was the effect which it had in obstructing the recruiting for the army, which was only

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Supplied through the medium of the army of reserve. He did not say that the volunteer system was in itself an obstruction to the re cruiting of the regular army, but that by the number of exemptions from serving in the militia and army of reserve, which it occasioned, the field was contracted, the bounties to substitutes were raised above all due proportion, and the difficulty of procuring recruits was rendered almost invincible. Thus, though it did not in itself pre vent recruiting, it did so by its con sequences. His right hon. friend had aid, that as the demand for substitutes became less, the bounties would also become less. He, however, apprehended, that it Mould be rather found, that as the demand became less the means of supplying that demand had become less in a greater proportion. By the difficulty of making up their ballots, and the expense attendant on the enormous bounties given, many parishes had been reduced to the greatest distress. Could he then say, that it was proper to continue the volunteer system under such disadvantages? Ought we alone to regard the present moment, and, through fear of lessening the present volunteer establishment, endanger our safety in succeeding years? He could not agree with his right hon. friend as to the inutility of a body of armed peasantry. He should only ask, if a body of 100O men of this description were collected, would an experienced officer think them of no use, because they had not been trained? He surely would not. He would employ them in some way, and that way would be no other than loosely annoying the enemy. If they made little impression at first, experience would improve them. The practice of war would teach them the best mode of proceeding. Not having learnt the manoeuvres which are only to be acquired by exercise at drill, they would not be of the full service which might be expected from regular troops. Whatever service, however, was to be expected from them, it would be got in some degree from the first, and they would constantly improve. If they did no good, they would do no harm. If they were not able to cope with the enemy themselves, they would not set the example to others to run away.—In the other way, if not brought to a certain degree of proficiency and military skill, if not trained to a certain extent, the volunteers, by mingling with the regular, would impede and confuse, rather than serve any useful purpose. The great error was in supposing, that army, militia, and volunteers were only different stages of the same thing that as
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certain anatomists had thought that membrames in certain cases became cartileges, and cartileges became bones, so it seemed to be supposed, that volunteers would, by degrees, grow into militia, and militia in time harden into regular army.—It was not sufficient to say, because an improper system had been gone into, that it ought to be persevered in; that they had got into a lane in which there was no turning, and therefore that it behoved them to go on. This was his objection to the ideas thrown out by his right hon. friend. If they continued the exemptions, with the other part of the system, they did so at the expense of counteracting the other part of the force of the country. It had been said, that a great many volunteers had entered as recruits. Of that he could entertain no doubt, nor was it possible to be otherwise where the whole population of the country were volunteers. With equal truth had it been asserted, that the Roman Catholics were the only disaffected persons in Ireland, in cases where the rebellion had broken out in a part of the country where none but Roman Catholics resided. The right hon. gent, then alluded to the conduct of the volunteers at Chester, who attacked the gaol, and liberated one of their companions. He did not mean to describe this as the most atrocious of all offences; nor would he fear to say that, however criminal the conduct, in the motives of these men might be discovered possibly even a degree of virtue. They might be impelled by a generous sentiment of rescuing a comrade unjustly carried away. But it was not thus that the law contemplated such proceedings, and, certainly, not the professors and administrators of the law, who were never backward on these occasions in thundering forth their horror and reprobation, and in repressing these acts of virtue or excuseable irregularity, by a little punishment called hanging. It seemed pretty obvious, that ministers had erected a force of which they now stood in awe, when it was mentioned that the only excuse made for not punishing so flagrant an act was, that the perpetrators of it could not be found out. He declared his horror of unequal punishments, and contrasted the condition of these volunteers with that of the man who was hanged while he (Mr. Windham) was secretary at war, for destroying opposite, to the war-office, not a gaol, not a place of authorized confinement, known to the law, and placed immediately under the royal protection, where none could be put but for just cause and by regular process, but. a vile crimping-house?, the ap-

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propriate seat of violence and abuse, against which every thing was to be presumed, and where the presumption could rarely exceed the reality of the fact.—In other points of view, the volunteer system, as now eon-ducted, was seriously to be considered. On the occasion of a general election, for Instance, when corps might set up candidates of their own, or espouse the cause of one or oilier of those already declared; how was the rule to be applied of sending, during an election, armed mm out of the town? It would be, in fact, to send the town out of itself. To the plan of his right hon. friend he must decidedly object. It was enforced, as it was sure to be, with great eloquence and ingenuity but—materiem superabit opus. The suggestions themselves were not the more judicious, because they were set forth with great ability. However he might wish to have the energy of the country displayed upon adequate occasions, he did not wish it to be rendered a military country. Even if that were the purpose, the way to accomplish it would not be to render every man a soldier. Those countries in which the system was pursued of making ail the citizens soldiers, were, in fact, the countries that were least military. France, Austria, Prussia, all the great military countries, pursued a totally different course. Swisserland, if in some sense a military country, was not military in virtue of its militia, but from the number of its inhabitants who had acquired experience in foreign service. Geneva, in which that was not the case, but in which every citizen was enrolled in the militia, was certainly not a military state: and the. same was eminently true at this moment of America. Ministers should seriously set about the great work under consideration, and atone for past neglect, by sedulously labouring to create an effective force, which could cooperate with, or support the regular force of the country, when the urgency of the occasion should require.
Lord Castlearghsaid, he had heard nothing in the speech of the last right hon. gent, that differed materially from what he had urged so often before; and that with respect to the ill effects of the volunteer system on other branches of service, he had by no means in any respect established that point. As for the discipline of the volunteer corps, certainly there was no man who would contend for the propriety of attempting to give them all the perfection of regular troops, but, on the other hand, there was equal impropriety in being too lax and inattentive to their discipline. There was certainly a medium to be observed in such a case. On the
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question of irregulars, he recollected very well the case of a body of armed peasants in Suabia, during the war between France and Austria, which did great annoyance and mischief to the French armies, particularly when defeated; or distressed from any local circumstances. But he could not avoid observing, that the first levce en masse in France, which was employed early in the late war, was of a description coming much nearer our own volunteers, and were a much more, efficient force than the Suabian peasants, They very generals who had commanded, those French soldiers declared out volunteers to be equal to them. As to political danger, he was quite insensible to any thing of the kind. When he considered the purity of views with which they were embodied, the mode of appointing their officers, and how they were all connected with the Crown, and that they could exist no longer than Parliament thought their services were required, he could not possibly see any ground of danger.—His lordship then condemned, in marked terms, the conduct pursued out of doors, and patronized by too many, of collecting with avididy every ridiculous story, or disagreeable circumstance, in a body of 380,000 men, and circulating it for the purpose of depreciating them. As to the riot at Chester, it was in the hands of the Attorney General; however, the men were turned out of the corps with every mark of disgrace. But if the right hon. gent, would, with equal curiosity, examine any regiment in the King's service, he believed he would discover little occasional irregularities in an equal proportion. Indeed, were he to consult the orderly book of a new-raised green regiment of regulars, he should not be surprised to hear him lamenting the risk of the constitution of the country, through the defective system of the army.—His lordship then thanked the right hon. gent, under the gallery, (Mr. Pitt) for the great attention he had given to the mode of recruiting the army; a subject which had, indeed, occupied much of his own reflexion, There would, however, be a better opportunity for the discussion of that point. It might then be found quite expedient to make the militia sacred from the recruiting service. That difficulty of recruiting was so great, in various points of view, that if adopted as a general system, it would drive Parliament to the necessity of increasing the militia; that force being so much more easily raised, merely because it is raised by ballot.—The next point, and one of great consequence, to which he wished to request the attention of the House, was the

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subject of naval defence, on which the right hon. gent. under the gallery had expressed a doubt, though he was happy to observe, without any disposition to censure that establishment. On this subject he was glad to be able to present the House with accurate statements, in which they would see, on a comparison of our present state of naval defence in an advanced period of the last war, that our exertions had been very great. To begin with ships of the line: we had at present in commission 91; last war that number was not reached till the third year. Of frigates we had now manned 129; a number we had not last war, till 1798 Of armed ships of various kinds, we had now 20 s, which was as numerous as in 1793. So that, open the whole, we had 411 ships of war already, though not a year had elapsed since the commencement of hostilities; whereas last war, at the end of the year 1793, we had but 375. At the end of the first year or this war we find ourselves as strong in naval defence as in the fourth year of the last war, when we gained the two great and celebrated victories of Lord House and Lord Rridport. All this statement was exclusive of the E. India Company's shipping, which consisted of 20 ships; of those of the Trinity equipped and manned, of 10 ships; of various small craft to the number of 602, at different ports; of the armed vessels in the-dock wards 373; and of armed vessels on the Irish coast 137; making altogether 1,122 armed vessels, exclusive of our regular ships of war. Our seamen too, amounted to 77,012, whereas it was not till the end of two years in last war, that they equalled that number. Our marines were 11,990, which they were not last war till 1795, a space of about three-years. From all this statement of facts, his lordship concluded, that the present state of naval defence was such as must give complete satisfaction to every person who candidly considered that important subject.
Mr. Pittbegged leave to say a very few words in explanation. He assured the noble lord that he should feel more happy in finding that every tiling practicable had been done in the line of naval defence, than that any of his apprehensions of another kind should be realized. But to be convinced of this, some further explanation than that just offered should be given. He thought the comparative statements which had been given did not proceed upon a fair principle: there certainly was no comparison between the first years of a war when the previous peace establishment had been only 18,000 men, and that in which it had been
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50,000—where they had passed to a war from a state of profound peace, and where hostilities were resorted to after a continual apprehension of war.—He thought it should be shewn what progress was made in that species of defence to counteract attempts at invasion, by means of shallow water?—Were the comparisons drawn from the state of preparation at those periods of the late war when invasion was more particularly thought of, as in 1797 and 1798, and in the summer of the year 1801, the difference would be more apparent, and the contrast more visible with those steps which had been lately and tardily taken for counteracting the designs of the enemy in these particulars. He felt it a duty due to himself and to the country, to point the attention of the House to this important top'c—a duty with which no former partiality or private friendships should interfere, and which, therefore, he should bring forward in a more specific form to the consideration of the House.
Mr. Wbitbreadsaid, at that late hour he should not trouble the House at much length. There were, however, some topics on which he was desirous on say a few words. The first and most important of these was the power, in the volunteer corps, of intermediately appointing their officers. He would nor call this a right. But he contended, they ought to have the power of recommending officers through the lords lieutenants, to his Majesty. Hs would venture to say, that all the volunteers, in offering their service, entertained the expectation of appointing their own officers in this manner. He then alluded to a late transaction concerning the Southwark volunteers, and said, he would declare plainly, that if the right honourable secretary of state proceeded to the extreme he threatened in this respect, he would lose the greater part of the volunteer force. The volunteer system was to supply the deficiency of the Defence Act. It was acknowledged by ministers, that the act was not practicable had it been attempted to be carried into effect: the volunteer system was, therefore, resorted to. But the House must see that the system was of frail texture, and, if it should crumble away, the country mast return to the measures of the Defence Act, inadequate to the necessity as they were acknowledged to be.—Mr. Whitbread next adverted to the pica of economy urged by ministers in behalf of the vounteer system. They ought not to attempt to impose upon the people, by telling them of its economy, when every man knows that it is more burthensome to the public than if a more effective force had been raised.—He

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then took a view of the attempt to enforce more rigid discipline on the volunteer corps. He contended there was no power of doing so. He spoke of discipline in minute things, which was injudiciously attempted. In the first instance, perhaps, a general plan might have been established, for all the volunteer corps. But now each must be chiefly governed in its own manner. The number of days of drill, far instance, must vary, according to the occupation of the men, and the season of the year. In harvest time, volunteers in the country could not attend to drill. It was impossible; and it was not policy to expect it, if practicable. If the enemy was actually in the country, all occupation must cease in the seat of the invasion, but that of actual war. But in a state of preparation, the ordinary occupations of labouring men must go on. During a certain part of the year, there was no drill in his corps; but that was brought up by more close application to the drill at other times. There must be, in this and many other respects, a great latitude for the volunteer corps. He was glad there were now 26 days pay, for exercise, to be allowed the men. Four days, beyond twenty, had been warmly contended for in vain; but now six were generously given; yet, he could not but observe that this was done without the authority of Parliament. It was done on the mere order of his Majesty's confidential servants. He noticed this for the presumption with which it was done; however, he was obliged to them for it. The times for a complaint against his Majesty's servants, for such unconstitutional conduct, were unhappily past, and he should not comment on that.—It would have been unreasonable to have demanded of ministers, that all the minute parts of the volunteer system should be at once perfect: but he expected to have seen, and all the country expected to have seen, a grand machine, effecting its original purpose, and going on without difficulty, as to all its great movements. But what is the case? No part of the system is free from embarrassment; no part is understood; all is confusion. He really did not believe that ministers, at that very time, understood either what they meant to enforce, or what to abstain from.—Mr. Whitbread then spoke of the imbecility of ministers, in their preparations for war, at its commencement, although they had declared the just jealousy they must have of the armaments in the ports of France, previous to that time. He did not know that the existence of those armaments had ever been proved to the country; bat, if they were, what preparations had been made? Ministers talked
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like children of the danger, and were as unprepared as children (Mr. Addbigton said accross the table, "The Militia") The militia, indeed, had been called out, but he did not expect them to take great credit merely for that measure. When the army of reserve was thought of, a measure so highly extolled; every means that could possibly raise the price of substitutes, and so injure the recruiting service, and produce other mischiefs, were adopted. Among other things an embargo was suddenly laid on vessels going down Channel, which added to the alarm, and made the price of substitutes enormous. The army of reserve has therefore failed. It stands still: its numbers cannot be filled. On the 18th of Jan. there were no less than 90 deficient in one place, of the quota 250. The first mistake of ministers, when they proposed the army of reserve, was followed by endeavouring to make volunteers a substitute for it, and then granting the volunteers exemption from the army of reserve, &c. thus, destroying the whole recruiting resources of the country.—Mr. Whitbread then observed, that almost every volunteer corps had committee, which he declared it impossible to prevent. He then touched again on the subject of economy, and the precariousness of die subscriptions to maintain the volunteer corps; recommending government at once to meet the expenses of those corps by a parliamentary provision. He earnestly recommended an impartial examination of the real strength of the volunteer corps. He did not believe that it amounted to what was stated, 380,000. And, if that, how much was disciplined, and able to take the field? How many able to march 100 miles from home? He contended that a regular army, to a very large extent, and more economical, might have been raised.—In concluding, he reprobated the raising the spirit of the country by brutal and ferocious prints. Foreign invasion was enough to kindle an Englishman's valour, whether it was by the Demi-God of the Thuilleries, or the Devil Incarnate of the Printsellers in Piccadilly. Henry IV or Bonaparte were to be dreaded alike as Invaders. Ministers continued to act without any plan or system whatever.
Mr. Tierneyexplained the circumstances which had occured in the Southwark corps. He said, that himself and his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) were in similar situations in many respects; they were both colonels, both had corps composed of their constituents, and both might be supposed desirous to stand well with them. The fact was, that one of the companies came to a resolution, declif-

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ing that they would not serve unless under an officer of their own choosing. Against this proceeding, however desirous to preserve the good will of his constituents, he found him, if obliged, in his military character, to protest and he should have been warning in his duty to the King, if he had suffered meninsisting on such a principle to continue with arms in their hands. In consequence of this affair, another of the companies adhered to the company reduced; but eight out of ten of which the corps consisted never made any pretension to the right claimed by the other two. And now one of those companies had again come forward to serve under the principle which he had held out to them; and twenty-seven of fifty of the other company had petitioned to be allowed to serve in the same manner. This was the whole extent of the affair alluded to by his honourable friend; and he did not see that it had either produced or threatened those disagreeable consequences which had been suggested.
Mr. Foxsaid, that it was not his intention to go at length into this question at present, there were a few points only on which he begged leave to touch; particularly as being in the nature of remarks on what had passed in the debate, they could not so well be brought forward on a future occasion. The right honourable gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) had alluded to the conduct of the admiralty; on that subject he was not at present prepared to give any opinion. He confessed that he was partial to this noble lord at the head of that department he admired his professional talents, and gratefully acknowledged his public services. Lord St. Vincent had all his good wishes, and on this account he most heartily wished him a better defender than Lord Castlereagh. That noble lord had defended the first lord of the admiralty, by a comparison with what had been done by former naval administrations. He talked of the navy in 1755, when in fact, the scale of naval force then was no more a standard of naval force now, than that of 1755 was to be measured by the navies of antiquity. The question was not, what, the naval strength of this country in any former war was, but what were the means, and what were the necessities of service, by which our exertions were to be regulated. It was not by referring to dates, and by summing up statements, that the first lord of the admiralty could be justified, nor was it on that ground, he was sure, that Lord St. Vincent would chuse to re this defence. He did not know where, or in what register, the noble lord might have found the arguments
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he had used, but precisely the same mode of defence was adopt d by the admiralty in the American war when for two years our navy had been inferior to that of France. It had been s"id on the ministerial side, that many of the argument had been used before; it would have been better if it could have been said that they were answered before. Whenever it was contended that the exertions for the public defence in every department were inadequate, ministers thought it was enough it they had done a much within the first year of war a had ever be done before. But could they be allowed to date their preparations only from March last? He would not say whether those he believed the peace was likely to last were nature's fools" or no, but ministers hid persuaded some that the peace was solid, though they themselves had since repeatedly declared that, from the moment of its conclusion, the conduct of the French governmant was but one system of aggression. In that case, therefore, they ought to have been prepared to pat an end' to what they now hold out as a hollow truce, at the most favourable moment, and a pretty moment they did chuse. It it be true That, ever since the peace, the French government had never ceased from insuit and aggression, ministers ought to have been in a state of preparation adequate to what the natural result of such a situation required; and instead of being the first year of the war, it ought to be considered, in regard cf. the state of preparation in which we ought to hive been, as the third.—With respect to the bid itself, he could not help taking notice of the extraordinary assertions of ministers, that it was their intention from the beginning that volunteers should have liberty to resign; they thought any other system pernicious. Yet had they taken the attorney general's opinion, which declared that volunteers could not resign. This opinion was circulated with great profusion, and re-com men tied to magistrates as the rule of their decision. Yet all this time ministers had intended to give the power of resignation, they thought the contrary principle pernicious in the highest degree, and they now say-that they would have proposed to give liberty to resign if the law had settled. This surely was a contradiction 5 and unless they had so gravely asserted that they always intended to allow the power of resignation, he should have inferred that they approved the attorney general's opinion, and that they had, from the first. intended the law as he had declared it. He should have been inclined to believe that the conduct of men disapproving of the opinion and of the law would,

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in circulating it, have announced to the lords lieutenants, that it did not that their itentions, that they intended to move for an alteration of the law, while in the mean time they would have instructed commanders of corps to permit resignation to take place. But nothing of this had they done, when Parliament met in November; nay, after bringing in another hill on the subject of the volunteers, no mention whatever was made of a'tering a law, the consequences of which are admitted to have been so pernicious to the volunteer system! Nay, since the attorney general's opinion had been given, it had actually been proposed in another House to clear up the point by law, when one of the secretaries of state declared, that that opinion was a sufficient rule for magistrates. In a word, on this point, he must have concluded from the conduct of ministers, that they fully approved the law as interpreted by the attorney general, and nothing but their grave acceleration prevented him from thinking so still. As to general measures of defence, it was not his intention to follow the example of Mr. Pitt in proposing any; and, in truth, one reason was, that I lie House was so little inclined to adopt his suggestions, and he was afraid that even Mr. Pitt was not likely to be more successful: unless, perhaps, there was some ordour of cilice still about him which might have its influence. He believed, however, that Mr. Pitt had not much greater prospect of seeing his plans adopted by the ministers than his himself had. He thought it better, therefore, to stick to the bill before the House, whatever were its defects, particularly as it was now the conviction of all, except ministers themselves, that the country was net in that state of defence which, from the immense means confided to ministers, it ought to have been in. And upon the volunteer system, therefore, we were forced to place a good deal of dependence. It was rather singular, however, that after the volunteer system had existed above seven months, it should be necessary to begin to make new regulations about attendance, silence in the ranks. Sec. &c, and yet the system itself was resorted to on the ground of immediate danger. It was now said, that the danger was immediate, and if it was likely to arrive in tour or five weeks, it was bet to have the volunteers several times every week, than to purpose to extend the number of drills every week. But with regard to the permanence of the system, it might be proper to adopt another course. It might he necessary to give up some of the perfection which more frequent attendance would bestow, least the volunteers should be so ha-
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rassed, that they might be induced to abandon the service altogether. As to the right of election he did not see that much was to be done. It might, as had been said, be left to the good sense of the people. But the conduct of ministers in menacing those that should not accommodate themselves to the wishes of government, was calculated to lay the foundation of much dissatisfaction. He hoped, however, that the volunteers would not be bullied oat of their determination to defend the country. It was curious that ministers accused those on the opposition side of the House, of attacking the volunteers, and arrogated the merit of defending them, the fact was, however, that he and his honourable friends, said merely that the volunteers never could be rendered so good as regular troops, while ministers, who affected to defend, were they who levied fines upon the volunteers, and threatened to disband them if they insisted on what at the beginning was conceived to be their right.—Mr. Fox concluded with stating, that a period would soon arrive in which it would be the duty of Parliament to enter into a general enquiry into the state of public defence, which was neither adequate to the means with which ministers had been entrusted, nor to what our situation required.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he should trouble the House, at that Fate period of the night, with a very few observations. The comparison made by his noble friend, respecting the noble lord at the head of the admiraltry, was only between the first year of the late, and the first year of the present war between the amount of the naval force in 1793 and 1803, and no farther. At the commencement of the present war, we had raised 40,000 seamen. As to marines, there were difficulties in raising them, that grew out of the means adopted for the defence of the kingdom. He admitted that species of force had gone on with languor, and that no landsmen had been raised. The number of sailors were therefore unusually great, and of landsmen unusually small but notwithstanding these, difficulties, he contended the exertions of the present were equal to those of former boards of admiralty; and if they were equal to those of the board of admiralty, in the last war, he should ask no other praise for them.—With respect to the right of resignation by volunteers, he denied that he had ever said that it did not attach to them. Had he been asked the question, he should have said, that the fact was, the question had never occurred to him; if it had, he should have said the right of resignation was the very essence of the volunteer system. The hon.

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gent. (Mr. Fox) had adverted to the silence of ministers upon the subject at the beginning of the session but by doing so, he did not seem to be aware, that a bill relating to volunteers had been introduced, and underwent very much discussion. He was astonished, therefore, that those who expressed so much anxiety now, had not availed themselves of the opportunity of such bill, to have had the point settled. The object of the bill to which he alluded, was to relieve those who were deprived of the exemptions, which they merited, on account of some informality, or circumstance, which attached no blame to them; such as their not being exercised with arms, not being in possession of any, &c. These gentlemen, therefore, who did not upon that occasion press for an explanation of the point in question, were accomplices with the government, of whose omission they complained. He said, that the state of the country was such as it ought to be, and wished the charge of insufficiency or neglect should be made specifically, as he should be happy to join issue, and meet it fairly. Ministers, he admitted, were incapable, if they had not made every disposition for defence, to which their means were adequate, and which were honourable to the public feeling and spirit. He ackowledged this, bat he hoped, at the same time, that they had not the demerit of having failed in carrying into effect all those means which had been placed in their hands. None but those who had a propensity to view with disfavour the conduct of government, would be of a contrary opinion. Our regular force spread over the world, considerably exceeded that of any former period, and our effective force was not more than 17,000 men less than at the highest amount during the late war. The objections made to the bill were few, and ministers were ready to listen to any suggestions to improve it, and obviate that few. The hon. gent, did him an injustice to suppose that his suggestions would not be attended to. This was an "era when all should lend their hand in support of the country. He assured the hon. gent, therefore, that he should pay every attention to his advice. He should give, however, no immediate opinion upon any suggestions that had been made. He hoped the bill would be committed on Wednesday, and in the mean lime he should consider them with the utmost attention. He hoped there would be no objection to going into the committee on Wednesday, and that the bill should pass through all its stages in the present week it was necessary that a bill of such import-
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ance to the country should be no longer delayed.
Mr. Denthoped, that some better information would would have been given on the exertions of the admiralty, than Steel's Monthly Navy List.
Mr. Greyhoped, that when the House should come to estimate the sufficiency or insufficiency of the measures adopted for the defence of the country, they should not be told to look to a comparison of the present with this or that year, but to the means in the hands of his Majesty's ministers. He was surprized to hear the right hon. gent, rest the defence of the board of admiralty upon the former of these two grounds; and he thought he gave a proof of his candour, when he asserted that the board of admiralty ought to be tried by the state of the country, compared with the means in possession of government, and not by any other rule. The right hon. gent, had apologised for our naval force being lower than it ought to have been, an account of their being few landsmen. He feared, therefore, that the volunteer system was defective, as interfering with our naval defence, which was of paramount importance to the country. Upon the subject of the attorney general's opinion, the right; hon. gent, had asked what would have been said of ministers should they have concealed it? To this he should simply answer, that there was no occasion to suffer that opinion to be acted upon to the great hardship and inconvenience of innocent individuals. If ministers thought it wrong, as they now confessed, instead of circulating, they should have remedied. They had an opportunity; to do so, for upon the occasion of the bill alluded to, he said it was easy for them to have added a clause to remove that which they now acknowledge to have been a hardship, and contrary to the idea of what the law ought to be. He should not, however, at that late hour, go at length into the question. He hoped, however, that a serious inquiry would be made into the state of our preparations for defence. We had been nearly 12 months at war, but that was not the whole time that must be fairly allowed for preparation. It was admitted that the period that preceded it, was only a suspicious truce, and consequently requiring means and precautions for the safety of the country. Upon I such inquiry he feared our situation, though it might not afford ground for serious alarm and apprehension, would not be found of that strength and security which he had a right to expect.
Captain Markhamsaid, he had heard only

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general assertions against the admiralty, but no specific charge. He should be happy to meet any precise charges, and to go into a real inquiry whenever it was thought proper. The low rate of insurance, he thought, was the best proof (hat the admiralty had done its duty.—The bill was then read a second time, and committed for Wednesday.

IRISK INSURRECTION.—
Sir John Wrottesleyrose, to give notice, that he should, on Wednesday se'nnight, move for the production of papers respecting the conduct of the Irish government in the late rebellion in that country Having waived his former notice, became necessary for him now to renew it.—The other orders of the day were then read and dispoved of.—Adjourned at four o'clock on Tuesday morning.

Preamble
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their several stages.—The farther consideration of the appeal Thellussons v. Wood-fords, was postponed.—On the order of the cay being read for the further consideration of the writ of error, from the Court of King's Bench, Mackreth v. Askew, the Lord Chief Baron delivered the opinion of the judges at great length. Most of the judges were present. The Lord Chancellor then left the woolsack, and observed, that
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four questions had been referred to the judges for their opinion; which they had now given, on the two first. If their lordships should concur with that opinion, there would be no absolute necessity, for their giving judgment in this cause, that they should hear the opinion of the judges on the other two. Yet, he thought it proper to state, that the four questions he. alluded to, were so framed as to include almost every question which could arise on the Annuity Act, and that it might be useful to the course of justice, that their lordship's decision should be founded on the whole view of all the questions referred to the judges, with their opinion on each. He should, therefore, move, that the further consideration of this cause be adjourned to this day week, for the purpose of their lordships' determining whether they will hear the judges on the two other questions. The motion was then put and agreed to.—Some witnesses were sworn at the bar previous to their being examined in some private bills. Adjourned till to morrow at three o'clock.