Sitting of 20 February 1804

MINUTES—
Mr. St. John, from the Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Honiton Election, reported that the Sitting Member, George Shum, Esq. was duly elected, and that the petition was not frivolous and vexatious.—Mr. Steele reported from the Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Durham Election, that R. Wharton, Esq. was not duly elected; that the Election, as far as related to the said R. Wharton, was void, and that neither the petition nor the opposition was frivolous or vixatious.—Anew writ was ordered for Durham, in the room of the said R. Wharton, Esq.—Mr. Secretary Yorke moved that there be laid before the House, an account of such volunteer corps in Great Britain as have been placed upon permanent pay and duty since November, 1803. Ordered.—Mr. Secretary Yorke afterwards laid the account before the House; which was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Creevey rose to postpone the motion which he had given notice of for tomorrow, till some day next week, but he hoped that no long time would elapse before he had an opportunity of calling the serious

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attention of the House to the subject.—Mr. Corry postponed his motion for a committee on the acts relative to the Irish Revenue till Friday next.—A new writ was ordered for Bramber in Sussex in the room of George Sutton, Esq. deceased.—The House agreed to go into a committee of the whole House on the Royal Marine Mutiny Bill to-morrow.—The Greenland Whale Fishery Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a committee of the whole House tomorrow.—The Committee of supply and of Ways and Means was deferred until Wednesday.

IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.—
Mr. Corrymoved the order of the day for the third reading of the Irish Bank Restriction Bill.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonsaid, that after the discussion which had taken place the last time the Bill was before the House, he felt himself bound to say a few words before its final departure to the other House. Nothing certainly could be greater than the importance of this measure, not only as affecting Ireland, but because it shewed what must be the consequence in this country, if the restriction should continue to any great length of time. If he had sat silent upon this occasion, it might be supposed that his opinion had been altered by the discussion which took place on the second reading; but although he paid every attention to the arguments which were used on that occasion, his sentiments still remained unchanged. It had been most clearly proved, that there was a great depreciation in the value of paper in Ireland, and that specie could only be procured with great difficulty and at a large premium: it had been urged, that the scarcity of guineas arose rather from factitious than from real causes; this be was inclined not to believe, for it was surely more probable that paper should be depreciated, from so great a quantity having been issued, than that the price of gold should have risen so much beyond its real value. Before he sat down, he wished to mention one or two points to which he hoped he should receive an answer, or at least some explanation from the right hon. gent. opposite him (Mr. Corry.) The rate of exchange had been for some time past increasing against Ireland, and had risen so high as 19½ per cent. Notwithstanding this, it had been asserted, that the Bank of Ireland last year had given a bonus of 5 per cent, to the proprietors of bank stock: this was a subject which certainly required some explanation. There was another circumstance which he had heard, from authority on which he placed
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great reliance, but which he wished at the same time to state with the greatest diffidence. The circumstance to which he alluded was this, that although the exchange was so great against Ireland, yet that the Lords of the Irish Treasury received their salaries at par. He had before stated, that he did not mean to assert this positively as a fact, but he thought it right to mention it, to give the right hon. gent. opposite to him an opportunity either of contradicting or explaining it, because, if those who might be supposed to have the greatest means of adopting measures for preventing the balance from being so strongly against Ireland felt no inconvenience from it, it might be apprehended that they would not feel much anxiety on the subject. That these evils existed, and that they required remedy, had not been denied, and, therefore, he hoped that some measures would be resorted to; the one that appeared to him the most proper would be to appoint a committee to inquire into the cause of the high state of exchange against Ireland. He lamented that he himself could, not move for such a committee, because there was another inquiry which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed his intention of moving for, respecting the Duty on Malt in Scotland, to which he felt himself bound to devote a great part of his attention; but he hoped it would be taken up by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) whose abilities and experience eminently qualified him for the task.
Mr. Corrysaid, he should begin by adverting to what fell from the noble lord towards the latter end of his speech, viz. that certain officers under the Irish government being paid their salaries at par.—On this point he would give the noble lord the most full and explicit information in his power; if the noble lord had done him the honour to have acquainted him with his intention of requiring information upon that subject, he would have taken care that he should have a most distinct and precise answer. At present, however, he wished to state, that certain officers from Ireland, who were employed in this country in the discharge of their public duty, were paid their salaries at par; that the Treasury of Ireland having money in this country, had given orders for the payment of those who were officially employed in this, country, including himself, the Lords of the Treasury, and the inferior officers, who were obliged to attend here during the session of Parliament, in the manner that had been stated. This practice had originated with the Union, and had been continued since, without any observation having been made upon it. With regard to what the noble lord

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had stated respecting the depreciation of paper in Ireland, he had given his opinion upon that subject, not only on the last discussion on this bill, but in the course of last session. It would be remembered that he had the honour of proposing a bill last session, which met with the approbation of the House, the object of which was, to restrain the circulation of small notes in Ireland, which bill was to commence its operation from the 1st day of this year. Finding, however, at the commencement of the present session, that the members from that part of the United Kingdom could not, in consequence of their military duties attend in Parliament, he had proposed a bill to postpone the operation of that measure till July, in the hopes that before that time he lush members would be enabled to attend in their places, and that the subject might be discussed in the most ample manner. The noble lord and the House would therefore, he hoped, do him the to acknowledge, that upon this subject he had always entertained and professed the same opinion. As to the question of the Restriction on the Bank of Ireland, he supposed the noble lord did not mean to contend that the Restriction ought to be taken of there while it continued here.—[Lord A. Hamilton said, "certainly not"]—Then the noble lord's observations did no apply to the Bank of Ireland; they were general speculations applying to the Bank of England and as that subject was not before the House it was not necessary for him to enter into it. With regard to the situation of Ireland with respect to its circulation, he should certainly be happy to receive the assistance of the abilities of the noble lord, and as the subject must come again under the consideration of Parliament this session, he hoped it would meet with the most ample discussion.
Lord A. Hamilton.In explanation, disclaimed any improper motives in the observations he had thrown out.
Mr. Curwensaid, that the interference of Parliament was certainly necessary to put an end to this evil, which was of very great magnitude. There appeared to him various ways in which it might be done: the two countries being united, he saw no reason why the bunks should not be united; or a bill might be passed to limit the circulation of paper in Ireland. These, certainly, were delicate measures, and required much consideration; but, with regard to the issue of private Bank paper in Ireland, which, was very great, he saw no reason why they should not be obliged to pay their notes in Bank of England paper.
Sir John Newportsaid, the proposition of the boa. gent. was the most extraordinary he had ever heard; if his object was to put a stop lo all the private Banks in Ireland, it would certainly be a very efficacious way of doing it; because it could not be supposed that an Irish banker, who issued his notes at par, could pay those notes the next day in Bank: of England paper, at a loss of 18 or 19 per cent. But he did not agree with those, gentlemen, who attributed the balance of exchange against Ireland entirely to the restriction on the Bank of Ireland. If they would look back to the years 1795 and 1796, they would had that the exchange was very high against Ireland, although there was then no restriction on payment in specie. The cause of this balance would perhaps be more readily found in the situation of the trade of Ireland with this country. Gentleman forgot when they spoke upon this subject, the large amount of the absentee rents drawn from Ireland. They forgot that since the union several large loans for that country had been negotiated in England, the interest of which, to the amount of one million and a hah, was annually drawn from Ireland. The absentee rents he estimated at little less than three millions, therefore the balance of trade in favour of Ireland must be great indeed, to supply such a continual drain. It had been said that the Bank of England had a greater controul over the private bankers than the Bank of Ireland had. This was a proposition he could not assent to, because the Bank of England had no other controul over the bankers except by refusing to discount their paper, and the Bank of Ireland had the same power. There was, however, a material difference between the situation of the two countries. In Ireland they had not only to combat with the general disposition of mankind to hoard specie, but there were in that country obvious causes which made that disposition almost universal. He did not speak of the North of Ireland, where fide was carried on almost all with specie, and the people had a confidence in each other, which, he was sorry to say, was not the case in the other provinces. The object of the lower classes of people in Ireland was to get specie, and the moment it was obtained it was buried, without the person so secreting it communicating it even to his wife or children, the consequence of this were, that immense quantities was lost. This disposition had produced the most fatal effects in Ireland. Tenants before they would pay their rents in specie would suffer themselves to be distrained and their cattle sold. They had no objection to pay in paper, because they

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thought, in rise of a successful convulsion, it would be of no value. But long before the restriction on the Bank, there was a great scarcity of specie arising from its being hoarded. He hoped, therefore, when gentlemen were discussing these subjects; they would bear in mind the great difference between the two countries, and not suffer themselves to decide too hastily upon general principles.
Mr. Fasterpaid, he would not add much to the of the discussion: he rose in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lord, to whom he paid some high compliments. He was sorry he could hot undertake ill it which the noble lord had recommended to him. viz. to move for a committee inquire into this subject. He trusted, however, that all that had passed upon this and a former occasion, would impress upon ministers the necessity of speedily adopting some measure for the relief of that country, and lie was sure could be done much more effectually by the gentlemen on the Bench below him (the Treasury Bench) than by himself.—The bill was then read a third time; and on the motion "that the bill do pass,"
Mr. Fostersaid, he did entertain a hope that ministers would have expressed an intention of taking up this subject, but as they remained silent, he felt the call upon him so imperiously, that he would, on a future day. bring the matter under the consideration of Parliament, at the same time he should be glad if ministers would take the task oat of his hands.

IRISH MILITIA.—
Mr. Fostercalled the attention of the right hon. gent. on the Bench below him (Mr. Corry) to the subject of the Militia of Ireland. He stated circumstances to shew that the Militia now existing in Ireland had been raised under the provision of an Act of Parliament, which was made for the purpose of providing for the families of Militia-men in certain cases. Some of the balloted men he knew had received the bounties. In the month of August a bill was passed to regulate and model the mode of giving bounties, and for providing for the families of militiamen, by which two shillings a weak were allowed to the helpless father or helpless, mother of a militiaman, and to the brother or sister one shilling per week. The militia was raised while this bill was in force. Afterwards another bill was brought into Parliament, and passed, by which the father and mother had only one shilling per work, and the brother and sister nothing, He did not say any thing upon the question, whether the first allowance was too much or the second too little, but he said
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that the militia was engaged on the faith of the former, and all that he wished was, that some measure should be had for keeping good faith with those men who entered under tire old law, but who now could neither under the old or new law receive the bounties or subsistence to their families that they expected. The money for this purpose was to have issued in a way that was peculiar to Ireland, by officers who had the superintend nice of that business, and it was to be replaced by determination of the grand juries, who were to make proper presentments for that purpose at the assizes. He mentioned this matter now, because unless some course be followed, different from what the law at present provides, the grand juries will not have such power as they were used to have to make the presentments, nor was there any time to be. lost upon this occasion, the time was short between this and the spring assizes in Ireland, which he believed would commence about the 16th or the 18th of March: therefore he hoped, that whatever measure was taken, it would be considerably before that time. He hoped that this, which he should call a mistake, would be rectified.
Mr. Corryobserved, that this was a subject on which there was a great difference of opinion in the Parliament of Ireland when it was discussed, He hardly remembered a question that was more agitated than this had been: but with regard to any amendments in the Act, or any tiling that might be done by way of alteration in that respect, he thought it was natural to postpone it until the Irish members were able to attend the House. Such he had thought, and did still think, the proper course in such a case as this. Whatever there was in his matter that required consideration, he was sure that his Majesty's ministers would concur with tie right hon. gent. who had now mentioned IT, ill giving it the most effectual attention; bit in the absence of most of the members for Ireland, who were attending their military duly, he should not think it respectful to them to discuss it.
Mr. Fosterthought the right hon. gent. had misconceived his meaning. He did net desire to enter on the merits of the case, or propose a discussion of it in the House, either one way or the other; what he wished was, only that ministers would remedy an apparent breach of faith,

MINUTES.—
Counsel were finally heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, Graham v. Weir, viz. the Attorney General and Mr. Alexander for the Respondent, and Mr. Adam on behalf of the Appellant in reply. The Lord Chancellor made a few observations upon the merits of the case, and concluded by moving a proposition tending to affirm the judgment of the Scotch Court, which was ordered accordingly.—The West-India Dock Bill was brought up from the Commons by Mr. Manning; and two Bills of a private nature were presented by Mr. Cartwright. These Bills were severally read a first time.

CHOLMONDELEY ESTATE BILL.—
The order of the day was then read for summoning their lordships upon the occasion of the second reading of Earl Cholmondeley's Estate Bill.
The Lord Chancellorquitted the woolsack, and made several observations upon the peculiar nature of such Bills as that before the House, and the usage of their lordships' proceedings, accompanied with a few remarks upon the special case. In the course of these observations, the noble and learned lord suggested the propriety of the introduction of a clause into the Bill, for reserving the rights of the last remainder man until the period when he shall be capable of giving his consent.
Lord Alvanleymade a few observations upon the case, and announced his entire concurrence with what fell from the noble and learned lord. He took occasion to applaud the care and attention which had been usually paid by noble lords who had sat upon the woolsack to such proceedings as that in question.—The Bill was then read a second time; and on the motion of Lord Walsingham, committed for to-morrow fort night. Some routine business was then disposed of, and their lordships adjourned till to-morrow.