Sitting of 30 November 1803

MINUTES.—
Colonel Stewarttook the oaths and his seat.—The Speaker acquainted the house, that the petitions complaining of undue elections, and the returns to the boroughs of Hull, Leominster, Shaftesbury, and Boston, had not been renewed in the present session of Parliament, pursuant to the provisions of the 28th of his present Majesty: and that he had certified to his Majesty's court of exchequer, that the recognisances in these cases had been forfeited.—General Bartlett brought up an enclosure bill, which was ordered to be read a first time.—Mr. Manning brought up the report of the committee to whom the petition of the London Dock Company had been referred, and obtained leave to bring in a bill to allow the said company to raise by loan, or otherwise, a sum of 500,000l. in addition to their original capital of 1,200,000l.—Sir P. Stephens, in a Committee of Supply, moved, that it be the opinion of the committee, that 100,000 seamen, including marines, be voted for the year 1804.—That a sum not exceeding 2,405,000l. be granted to his Majesty, for wages for these 100,000 men, for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 1l. 17s. per min per month; that a sum not exceeding 2,470,000l. be granted for victuals for them for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 1l. 18s. per man per month; that a sum not exceeding 3,900,000l. be granted for Wear and tear of ships for that complement of men for thirteen lunar months at the rate of 3l. per man per month; that a sum not exceeding 325,000l. be granted for ordnance for the sea service, for that complement of men for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 5s. per man per quarter.—The resolutions were all agreed to; and the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to morrow.—Mr. Secretary Yorke gave notice, that he should on Friday next, move, for leave to bring in
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two bills, to continue, for a time to be limited, two bills of last session, for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; and for the suppression of rebellion in Ireland.—Mr. Vansittart moved, that there be laid before the house the following estimates: An estimate of the expense of the hire of transports from January 7, to December 31, 1804; An estimate of the expenses of prisoners of war, in health, for the same period; An estimate of the money that will probably be wanted for sick prisoners of war, for thirteen lunar months, from January 7, 1804.—The motions were all agreed to, and an address ordered to be presented by such members as were of his Majesty's Privy Council, that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to order the said estimates to be laid before the house.

EAST-INDIA BONDS.—
Lord Castle reagh,pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose to submit his motion to the house, on the subject of the East-India Company's bonds. The house would be aware of the importance of the measure he had to propose inasmuch as the value of the East-India Company's capital was materially influenced by the circumstances under which their securities were circulated in the market. The object of the bill he meant to bring forward, would be to place India bonds, as nearly as possible, on the same footing as Exchequer bills; and the operation of it, of course, would extend to two points, in which they differed from such government securities. The first point related to the manner in which the duty charged under the property tax act was levied on income, arising from such property, which rendered it less desirable to the holder, and of course, tended to depreciate its value. As the tax was levied under the provisions of that act, the directors were authorised to deduct the shilling in the pound from the interest payable on India bonds; so that, whatever may be the income of the holder, the full amount was in this instance to be levied, even though he should not possess 150l. per annum. Such a mode of levying the tax> operated directly to diminish the convenience of such property, and consequently to depreciate its value. 1l was, however, to be admitted, that the party had a remedy by an application to the commissioners for an abatement in every case, where his rate of income, or other circumstances, should entitle him to such abatement. But, when it was considered how onerous and operose such application must prove to individuals, he trusted the house would not object to the principle for simplifying the mode of col-

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lecting the tax, by enabling holders of India bonds to include the interest thereof in the general statement of their income. He was the more confident of this, as the modifification would not interfere to any considerable amount with the income; duty. The gross amount of India bonds, issued by the company, did not exceed 80,000 or 90,000l. the duty upon which, would of course be tinder 5000l. and not of sufficient weight with the house to induce it to with-hold a facility to the operations of a great commercial company, particularly as the just amount of the duty would not be eventually affected thereby. This was one object of his measure; the other regarded the rate of interest which India bonds bear, with reference to the interest payable on Exchequer bills. The company was by law prohibited from giving more than five per cent, on their bonds, whereas Exchequer bills bore a rate of interest per day, which amounted annually to 5l. 6s. 6d. per cent. This circumstance rendered the property in India bonds, less desirable than other property capable of producing a higher rate of interest, and was of course injurious to the company; besides, it was material that in time of war the bonds of the company should not be ousted from the market. Though the rate of interest had been limited by law, the noble Lord was sure it had never been in the intension of the legislature to place India bonds under disadvantages, to which no other public securities were liable. He was aware that it might be urged, that there ought to be some distinction, between the interests of the public and that of a commercial body, but he was confident the legislature would not look upon the India company as a body wholly mercantile. Their interests were so closely interwoven with the interests of the public at large, which was to enjoy a participation of their resources, that the public could not be a gainer while the company was a loser. His object, therefore, was, to enable the India company to give an interest on their bonds, not exceeding the rate of Interest which exchequer bills may bear at any time, in order that they may enjoy their fair proportion in the market for the circulating medium. He did not see any necessity to trouble the house further, he therefore should move "for leave to bring in a bill to regulate India bonds, with regard to the rate of interest and duty payable thereon."—Leave given.

BANK RESTRICTION BILL—
The Chancellor of the Exchequerafter moving, "that the several acts imposing a restriction on the issue of cash in the payments made by the
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Bank be read," stated, that it was not his intention to preface the motion he meant to submit to the house with many introductory observations. There had, on a former occasion, existed considerable objections to the measure for confirming the order of council by which the restriction of the issues of cash from the Bank had been imposed. He was himself of opinion, that the measure was a wise one; and whatever doubts might have existed, in the first instance, as to its expediency, had been fully and satisfactorily obviated in the discussion which had taken place, on the subject's being brought before the house. But though doubts had been entertained as to the propriety of the measure, during a period of peace, he had never heard its policy questioned during a period of war. Under the impression, therefore, that no doubts existed on the subject, he should take it for granted, that no objection would be made, in the present instance, to a renewal of the measure. It was satisfactory to know that the credit of the Bank had remained firm and unshaken, during the past experience of the measure, and that its sufficiency to make good its engagements, both was, and is, unaffected by even the slightest suspicion. It was highly to the credit of the Bank, too, that it had not availed itself of the dispositions of the act, to issue a quantity of paper exceeding the amount of its capital; or abused the discretion, which a measure essential to the public welfare, necessarily left for its own private ends. It was, however, expedient, that the house should, from time to time, be made acquainted with the quantity of paper in circulation, and he proposed to move for an account of that which was actually in circulation at different periods during the last year; but he should first move, "for leave to bring in a bill, to continue, for a time to be limited, the restriction on the issues of cash by the Bank of England."
Mr. Jekyll.—Sir; I do not rise to oppose I the motion of the right Don. Gent. but to direct his attention, and that of the house, to the lamentable state to which the public are reduced by the want of circulating specie. The shameful practice of hoarding up cash, has been carried to such an excessive pitch, that it is with great difficulty, specie can be procured for the common purposes of life. I am sorry to observe the prevalence of this ungenerous feeling, at a crisis, which calls for every possible exertion; and, I am assured, from the respectable authority of a principal banking-house, that, if the practice be net put a stop to, bankers

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will in a short time not be able to procure specie for the fractional parts of change. I have seen too, in a newspaper of this morning, some resolutions of a respectable corporation,* calculated to meet the evil, and recommending the acceptance of dollars at a certain rate, and of French crowns and half crowns, in change. These observations I have thrown out, Sir, merely, to call the attention of the right hon. gent. to a grievance, which loudly calls for legislative interference.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed with, the hon.gent. that the evil of which he complained, but too certainly existed; and assured him, that it had been under the consideration of his Majesty's government. He admitted that the hon.gent. had commented justly on the baseness of such a practice, at such a crisis. The remedy, however, rested with individuals, who might easily correct a practice, that was as inconsistent with public spirit, as it was with the duty of a good citizen.—The motion was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill. After which the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "that there be laid before the house an account of the amount of Bank of England notes in circulation on the 1st of June, 1st of August, 1st of October, and 25th of November, 1803; distinguishing the amount of the value of those below 5l." Ordered.

WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. Deverellmoved the order of the day, for renewing the debate on the motion for excusing Mr. Pedley from his attendance on the Waterford committee.
The Speakersaid, he conceived it to be his duty to state to the house, that affairs of an urgent nature having called the hon.gent. mentioned in the motion, to the island of Jamaica, and that the gentleman having long since taken his passage, it was moved that he obtain leave of absence from the committee on the Waterford election, on
* The following is the circumstance to which the hon. member alluded:—In consequence of the great inconvenience experienced at Portsmouth from the scarcity of cash, a meeting was held, pursuant to advertisement, at the Guildhall of that place, on the 22d of November. The mayor presided; and, after some discussion on the means of alleviating the difficulties and inconveniences so, seriously felt at Portsmouth and Portsea, for the want of gold and silver for the purposes of trade, it was unanimously resolved, that dollars should be admitted into temporary currency, at 4s. 9d. each, but that no person should engage to take more than four in one payment; and French crowns at 5s. and half crowns at 2s. 6d.
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which he was appointed. The question being put,
Mr. Deverellrose. He recapitulated what he had said on the preceding evening. He stated farther, that the hon.gent. alluded to had spent seventeen or eighteen years in the island of Jamaica, and had only lately left it. It was scarcely probable, therefore, that a man in such circumstances should have left his affairs in such a situation, as not again to require his personal presence. The hon.gent. entered further into a minute discussion of the observations of the Attorney General on the preceding evening, and endeavoured to obviate that right hon. gentleman's objections. He stated, that it would be a very hard case, indeed, if gentlemen should be excluded from attendance on their own private and most interesting affairs; affairs in which their happiness and personal respectability were deeply implicated, merely because they had been appointed on a committee, the business of which might be otherwise executed without, injury to the public. He appealed to the feelings of the house. Was it a case to which anygent. present would wish, to submit. He alluded to a precedent, where nine out of fifteen had sat and transacted the busines of an election committee, whereas even in case of the hon. gentleman's absence, there would still, according to the Attorney General, be eleven on the Water-ford committee.
The Attorney Generalrose. It was far, he said, from his intention to oppose the private interests of any member of that; house, and in regard to the gentleman alluded to, he would be the last to throw any obstruction in his way. So much was this the case indeed, he said, that if the question, were at this moment put, it would be more agreeable to find that the gentleman should obtain leave of absence than that he should not. To be refused, indeed, in such circumstances, he thought would be a very hard case; and let it be brought home to the feelings of any gentleman here present, he was as sensible as the hon.gent. who, spoke last, that no one could deny the force of his argument. The hon.gent. had stated that he had said the whole of the business would be at a stand, should more of the members be absent than now were. This was not directly the idea he had expressed. He had meant to say, that if one, two, or three, were permitted to absent themselves upon business, others, might claim the, same privilege, and of course no reliance could he placed upon any committee ap-

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pointed by the house; and such really was the case in the present instance; three had already dropped from the committee in question, and this motion went to authorize the absence of a fourth. The right hon.gent. concluded by saying, that where the private interests of the individual and those of the public were put in competition, his own private feelings would be too ready to lead him to give a preference to the individual; interest; but, at the same lime, he could not conceal his anxiety, that the house should not be forward to establish precedents that Were too likely to be followed, to the injury of the public service. With regard to precedents, he had taken much pains to search for them; and he could find no precedent, where a member for private business was indulged, but in a temporary absence; in which case, the committee was adjourned, till it could have the benefit of his attendance. Painful as it would be to him, he should, therefore, vote against the motion.
Mr. W. Dundasrose, and requested that the house would pause, before it should determine in a case of such importance, where they had nothing before them, but the general assertion of an individual, to direct their judgment. Suppose, he said, I wish to go to Scotland? If you establish a precedent of this kind, will it not be natural for me to plead business, and to direct your attention to this very precedent, which you are about to create?
Mr. Braggeobserved, that it must be in the recollection of the house, that there was no precedent in England that could apply to this motion, and as committees for the trial of Irish elections were now in this country, no arguments could be adduced on the present question, but those of expediency only. It therefore remained with the house to establish or not, as they should think proper, a precedent on the present occasion.
The Speaker,before he put the question, stated to the house, the number of precedents of absence, granted to members, from committees, to be eight; four of which, were for total absence, in consequence of the death of near relations. Of the other four, two were for private business, and but for two days; and the committees were in both cases adjourned, till the expiration of the two days. The remaining two were, first, the case of the Okehampton petition Mr. Pelham, one of the members of the committee for trying which, was also water bailiff to the court of sewers, and had obtained a total release from attendance on the committee, in consequence of his presence being essential to the discharge of his other duties.
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The second, was the case of Shaftesbury, in which case, Sir Richard Worsley, who was also mayor and returning officer of another place, obtained a release from attendence on the committee, in consideration of the calls of duty in his corporation. The question being put by the Speaker, there was a call to divide the house, when there appeared for the motion 45, and against it 54. The motion, of course, was negatived by a majority of 9.

MINUTES.—
Their lordships met this day pursuant to adjournment.—The Lord Chancellor informed the house, that his Majesty had been pleased to return a most gracious answer to their lordships' address,

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which was Ordered to be entered on the journals of the house. It was nearly to the same effect as the answer made to the ad dress of the House of Commons.—The hearing of certain appeal causes were then severally ordered for the enduing week; after which the Lord Chancellor informed their lordships that he had some matters of consequence to communicate which respected their privileges. Strangers were in course ordered to withdraw; and alter a short interval the house adjourned.