Lords Report of 17 March 1853

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Sidney Sussex College Estate; Consolidated Fund.
Reported.—Slave Trade (Sohar in Arabia); Slave Trade (New Granada).
3a County Elections Polls; Grand Jury Cess (Ireland); Indemnity; Office of Examiner (Court of Chancery).

CANTERBURY ELECTION CONFERENCE.
Conference, had at the Desire of the Commons upon the Subject Matter of an Address to be presented to Her Majesty, under the Provisions of the Act 15th and 16th Vict., Cap. 57.; and Report made, That the Commons had agreed to an Address [which was offered], to be presented to Her Majesty, to which they desire the Concurrence of their Lordships.

COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL.
The EARL of CARLISLEmoved that this Bill be read 3a.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYcomplained that the noble Earl had not made any statement of the grounds upon which this Bill was founded. He (the Marquess of Salisbury) thought that the Bill made very unnecessary and inconvenient alterations in the present system. The size of some counties was such, that it would be found impracticable to poll all the voters in a single day, at least without some concurrent alterations. It would be absolutely necessary to create new polling places, in order to enable the electors to record their votes with safety and convenience, and to enable the poll clerks to take correctly the state of the poll. The method also of taking the poll required to be simplified, and he would suggest to the noble Earl that a clause should be inserted in the Bill

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for the purpose of altering the present mode of polling. He would himself propose clauses to that effect as a rider to the Bill, after the third reading.
The EARL of CARLISLEsaid, he would briefly state what were the grounds for the introduction of this Bill into Parliament, which, however, appeared to him to be very obvious. By the present law the time allowed for electing Members for towns and boroughs was one day only, but for the election of Members for counties two days were allowed. Now, it had been found by experience that the only effect of giving a second day for county elections was to impose additional expense on the candidates. It was also found that on the second day, especially when there was a severe contest and much excitement, there was a disposition on the part of the populace to have recourse to riotous proceedings, to acts of bribery, and other discreditable practices. The noble Marquess appeared to apprehend that in some counties it would be impracticable to poll the whole body of the electors in a single day. Now, his noble Friend on the cross-benches (Lord Wharncliffe) and himself, could bear witness that this was a chimerical apprehension, for they had gone through three contests for the West Riding of Yorkshire, which had the largest constituency in England; and on the last occasion, when he was defeated by his noble Friend, they polled together upwards of 25,000 voters, and, so far from the result of the contest not being known till the second day, it was virtually known by the very middle of the first day. He and his noble Friend, therefore, could produce themselves as competent witnesses to prove that this objection of the noble Marquess was a chimerical objection. He had been informed that in the Tower Hamlets, where there was an immense number of voters, it had been found that all the votes could with the utmost ease be taken in one day; and that after the second or third hour the polling clerks were sitting comparatively idle—polling only a few votes in the hour. A system, therefore, which was calculated to afford so much convenience on the one side, and to cause so little inconvenience on the other, was thought by the House of Commons to be one which it was high time should be adopted both in boroughs and counties; and that the same rule, in regard to the period for polling, should be applied to both. The noble Marquess had proposed a plan to simplify the method of polling, and to make a different arrangement for
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the polling places. He (the Earl of Carlisle) was not prepared to say that the suggestion of the noble Marquess was not proper to be adopted. He had no wish to contend against it; but it did not seem to come properly within the purview of the Bill; he thought it would be considered irregular to introduce into the present Bill an Amendment of another Act of Parliament to regulate and appoint new polling places for counties. As the noble Marquess had done him the honour to communicate his intentions beforehand, he had consulted the proper authorities on the subject, both in that and in the other House of Parliament; and from them he learnt the better way would be to introduce a short Bill to amend the law relating to the appointment of new polling places. The noble Marquess would therefore excuse him for opposing his proposition, and for calling upon their Lordships to allow the Bill to be read a third time as it now stood.
The EARL of DERBYsaid, he should support the proposition of his noble Friend. He did not understand his noble Friend to make this proposition with the object of defeating the measure now before the House; but his noble Friend was rightly desirous of making provision that there should be a sufficiency of polling places, in order to guard against the inconvenience which would otherwise be felt from the attempt to poll a whole county in a single day. The noble Earl had said he was desirous of seeing counties and boroughs placed on the same footing as to the taking of polls; but he feared this would lead in practice to great inconvenience and confusion. Again, it would interfere with the present distribution of the franchise, since the change might have the effect of depriving those who now possessed votes in more than one county of the power of exercising their right, when the elections happened to be coincident. The object of his noble Friend and himself was one. He considered the principle of the Amendment decidedly beneficial to the operation of the Bill, when passed; but if the noble Earl said there were objections in point of form to the introduction of the proposed amendments, he should advise his noble Friend not to press a proposition which would be rejected by the other House. But there was certainly nothing hostile to the Bill in it, and it would even be necessary to make the measure work, according to the admission of the Government themselves.
LORD BATEMANapprehended it to be impossible that this measure should work

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well in counties where there were no railroads.
LORD REDESDALEintimated that circumstances had occurred which rendered it desirable to bring forward a measure in the present Session of Parliament with reference to this subject; he therefore did really hope that attention would be paid to the matter, so that it should be settled. The question was one on which counties had a right to expect that a Bill would be passed. With respect to the suggestion that the law as to polling places in counties should be put on the same footing with the law as to polling in towns, he should remind their Lordships that it was possible in a town to poll a certain number of votes without difficulty in a short time; but where electors had to travel many miles in going to a polling place, the question must be considered with reference not only to expense, but to time. In the one case, the parties who had to tender their votes were on the spot; in the other they were at a distance. He thought it the bounden duty of those who had charge of the Bill to take care that, so far as lay with them, no difficulties should arise to prevent its passing this Session.
The EARL of CARLISLEsaid, he wished to guard himself against being supposed to express any opinion hostile to the proposition of the noble Marquess; but he would suggest that, though the Amendment which the noble Marquess proposed to introduce into this Bill might not be open to objection in point of form, yet it was for the consideration of the noble Marquess whether it was desirable to. press the Amendment, having regard to the objections which might be taken on the Bill being sent down as amended to the other House of Parliament. There were other collateral points for improving the present arrangements which might be introduced into a separate Bill, but which did not concern the object of the present Bill.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYapprehended, with great respect to the noble Earl, that the only objection which could be urged to the Amendment was, that if it were inserted, the House of Commons would not pass the measure. He (the Marquess of Salisbury) did not wish to hazard the loss of the Bill; but he had thought it necessary to state his opinion, as the matter was one of very serious importance. He would not, therefore, press his Amendment.
Bill read 3a; Amendment moved; ob-
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jetted to; and, on Question, disagreed to; Bill passed.

REVISION OF THE STATUTES.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he had to preface the question of which he had given notice with a very few observations on the important measure announced by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack. He begged to assure his noble and learned Friend that nothing could be further from his intention than to raise any impediment in his way; but he wished to know precisely what was the course which his noble and learned Friend proposed to pursue for the revision of the Statutes, and what the machinery by which he proposed to effect his object. The revision and digest of the Statutes was a subject with respect to which, for a long period, a very anxious wish had been expressed that measures should be taken; and different attempts had been made from the very earliest periods to effect the object—but with these it was not his intention to trouble their Lordships. He would refer, however, to the year 1816, when a Motion was made in their Lordships' House for a Committee simply to consider whether it was expedient to arrange the Statutes under appropriate heads. A Committee was appointed for that purpose; and that Committee came to the resolution that it would be expedient so to arrange the Statutes; and that it would be proper for persons learned in the law to execute that task, with clerks, not exceeding 20 in number, to assist in making that arrangement. The resolutions of the Committee being reported to their Lordships, were accepted by the House, and communicated to the House of Commons. These, though for so limited an object, gave rise to debate, and met with opposition; but, ultimately the resolutions were carried, and with some alterations were transmitted back to their Lordships' House. The resolutions ultimately being carried by both Houses, became the subject of an Address to the Crown, and a favourable answer was returned by the Prince Regent. There the matter seemed to have rested till 1834, when a Commission was issued to several learned persons—very competent persons—to form a digest of that portion of the Statute and Common law which related to criminal offences—not further to digest generally the Statutes at large, but to inquire whether it was expedient that there should be a con-

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solidation of the Statutes, or of any of them. In 1835 those learned persons made a report, in which they stated what were their views with respect to the consolidation of the Statutes. They pointed out that there were three modes of proceeding, one simply by a process of expurgation, which might be attended with classification under general heads, such as Clergy, Poor, Highways; but it was to be simply an expurgation, with an arrangement under general heads. The Commissioners thought that plan would be a safe one and useful; and, if his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) intended to confine himself to that plan, he (Lord St. Leonards) should not have had a word to say on the subject. The next plan pointed out was that of consolidating and classifying the Statutes—by which it was meant that every subject should be arranged under its proper head; and the Commissioners pointed out the great danger and inconvenience that might arise from this plan—for instance, titles might be affected, and they reported against the adoption of that plan. Their Lordships would see what would be the effect from a single example. Suppose they took a single clause out of an Act of Parliament, because it ought to be arranged under a new head: if they took it out of the Statute with which it had been enacted, and transferred it to what might be thought its proper head, they would find that it would not have the sense it had when read with the context of the Act in which it was originally contained. Those learned persons, therefore, came to the conclusion not to recommend the adoption of that plan. The third plan proposed was very large in its range: it amounted to what was called "codification." Its object was to remodel and reform the Statutes, so as to adapt them to the actual state of the law as declared by the Judges in their decisions based on the Statutes, so that the law should not say in words one thing, while decisions of the Judges might have given what seemed a different construction; but the proposal was, that this great work, which the Commissioners appeared to have much at heart, should be executed so that the law should be declared precisely as it stood, not simply on the Statutes, but as explained and decided upon by the Judges. A few words from the Report would show their Lordships how difficult the Commissioners apprehended the execution of that
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task would be. The noble and learned Lord here quoted a passage from the Report, in which the Commissioners expressed the opinion that a complete and systematic consolidation of the Statutes, accompanied with the adjustment of the enactments to the judicial decisions, was practicable and desirable; but that they were aware that so extensive a reform, however beneficial, could not be safely accomplished without great labour, nor was it one that ought to be attempted without first cautiously weighing the means of performing so arduous a task, or without fully estimating the difficulties to be encountered in its execution. The Commissioners had certainly not overstated the difficulty. That plan would amount to an entire codification of all the Statutes—a work of such immense magnitude that no man could hope to live to see its completion. This had been a Commission to inquire, but it was afterwards converted into a Commission to execute so much of the report as recommended a digest of the Statute and Common law affecting criminal offences. In the course of a few years these Commissioners produced eight large blue books; other Commissioners had afterwards produced five more; and the whole of these thirteen blue books were now the subject of consideration before their Lordships' Select Committee, to whom had been referred the Bill for consolidating and amending the Criminal law introduced by the late Government. The cost incurred had been stated, and he believed understated, at a stun which he did not mean to say was too large a sum to pay, but was a large sum, and ought to make Parliament cautious as to how they entered on any plan relating to the Statutes. His object, as he had already stated, was not to embarrass his noble and learned Friend in any manner, but to make the inquiry of which he had given notice, that the House should know to what extent his noble and learned Friend intended to go, and the machinery by which he intended to work out his plan. He (Lord St. Leonards) should apprehend that even for a classification under the heads "Poor," "Clergy," "Highways," and the reduction of enactments to general heads, it would at least be necessary that Her Majesty should be advised to issue a Commission to learned persons. He begged to ask his noble and learned Friend whether his revision of the Statutes would be confined to a digest, or

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extend also to the alteration and amendment of the Statute law; also, whether it was proposed that the Crown should issue a Commission, or that the two Houses should proceed by resolution, followed up by an address to the Crown, as in 1816; or by what authority the barristers employed would be appointed?
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that in answer to the question of his noble and learned Friend he had to state—and in fact he thought he had stated before—that he was perfectly aware that there had been Committees and reports of Committees of that and the other House of Parliament upon the very subject to which he alluded, namely, the consolidation of the Statute Law; that great discussions had taken place in both Houses, the result of which was an address to the then Prince Regent, praying that a Commission might issue, and that a very courteous answer had been returned, but that nothing had been done. A Commission was issued some fifteen or sixteen years afterwards, in 1833 or 1834; and a very elaborate report was presented by the Commissioners recommending that something should be done, showing what was easy and what was difficult, and chalking out what might be done. But he had really thought that we had arrived at such a point that farther speculation as to what might be and what was convenient to be done was absurd; that these inquiries had ended, and always would end, in nothing. What he had proposed, therefore, was—not anything so absurd as that he should himself undertake to attempt the consolidation of the Statute Law—but he did think himself competent to superintend some three or four gentlemen, who in the course of the year, under his direction, might endeavour to do the best that could be done; first, making what his noble and learned Friend called such an expurgation of the statutes as would show what was and what was not now in force, and forming a sort of index and classification, and then to attempt to reduce into much better form than that in which they now existed some of the statutes under the simplest heads; endeavouring as far as possible to shorten that inconvenient language in which they were now couched, the object was to improve and classify it. He only looked upon what could be done in this way in the first in stance as specimens of what might be done; and when that should have been accomplished, he would then have to con-
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sider whether what had been done afforded such an augury of how the whole might be completed as would justify him in recommending, with the concurrence of his Colleagues, the issue of a Commission of learned persons to accomplish the remainder of the work. His object, therefore, was not to inquire merely what could be done, but to set practically to work to get something really done, in order to furnish a criterion of what actually could be effected. And he thought he would be deserting his duty if he were to rest satisfied with merely stringing together the existing statutes as they now stood, in the language in which they were now found, for he believed that a great deal more than that might be done without any risk; but as to what extent they might go with safety he did not like to speculate. It might be that he was too sanguine on that point; although, on the other hand, he must say he thought his noble and learned Friend was too timid on the subject. He (the Lord Chancellor) thought a great deal in the way of consolidation and purification might be accomplished—getting rid of much verbosity, putting the statutes into a much better shape, and making them more intelligible than was the case at present. It would be his main endeavour to accomplish that object during the current year. It would also be one of his main objects to follow the suggestions of his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Lyndhurst), namely, that while they sought to classify the existing statutes, and to turn them into better language, they should constantly keep in view the necessity for Adopting a better mode of conducting legislation for the future. He did not know that they would be able to suggest anything, but he believed that the course he proposed afforded the best chance of accomplishing that desirable object. His noble and learned Friend asked under what authority the work was to be done? He answered under his authority, with the concurrence of his Colleagues. The expense would be extremely small; and he believed he had secured the services of four of the best gentlemen that he could hear of; and he had the more satisfaction in this respect, that he had never seen one of them before in his life, but he had selected them solely because after looking minutely into the recommendations made to him, and the qualifications, he believed them to be as competent for the task as he could find; and he had secured their

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services at the expense of a very few hundred pounds for each of them for a year, He should expect that they would devote their whole time to the work; and if a great deal was not accomplished, he believed the matter would be put into such a train that some good must eventually result from their efforts. It must be a great advantage to possess an authentic record of the statutes now in force, and a mode of classification chalked out, with specimens of some of the easiest statutes recast into better language and form; and this, he confidently anticipated, would lead to the ultimate adoption of a better mode of framing future statutes. There was one thing which had been most gratifying to him, since the announcement he had made about a month or five weeks ago—to find how very much alive the profession and other persons were to the importance of this subject, and—what was a great surprise to him—to see how much had been already done. Only that day he had a communication from a very distinguished person, Sir Edward Ryan, who put into his hands a work (which, according to his description, was most elaborate) written by the late Sir Henry Seton, who had investigated this subject, and classified and made a kind of arrangement of the statutes in a really remarkable manner. He had not yet seen the work himself, and spoke from Sir Edward Ryan's account of it. Other works of a similar nature had also been brought under his (the Lord Chancellor's) notice, the authors of which it would be invidious to particularise; but it was from among these gentlemen that he selected those persons, thinking he had found among them the men most competent to assist in the task which he had in view. He did not say that what might be done in the course of this year would be anything very elaborate, or very perfect; but he believed it would be essentially useful, and that it would afford the best prospect of the complete consolidation of the statute law hereafter. At all events, it must do some good, and by no possibility could it do any evil.
LORD ST. LEONARDSwished the noble and learned Lord might realise his expectations; but must repeat his caution that the alteration of a single word in an Act of Parliament might alter the force and effect of the Act, and you could not predicate what ultimately it could be held to mean until there had been an actual decision upon it.
LORD BEAUMONTunderstood the case to be that the language of the statutes was sometimes at variance with the decisions of the Judges, and that as it must be desirable that the language of the statutes should be placed in accordance with those decisions, that—merely that—was what the Lord Chancellor had in view.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid that that was not at all what His noble and learned Friend meant. What the noble Lord seemed to think so easy was one of the most difficult tasks that could be assigned to any man; the statement of the Commissioners, which he had read to the House, was directed to teat object, and showed that it would be a great object to accomplish if it could be done; but you must look well to your means of doing it.
LORD BEAUMONTexplained. He did not think it would be advisable to alter the language of the statutes where that language was not evidently in opposition to the decisions of the Judges; but he thought it was advisable to put it into accordance with those decisions.

THE AUSTRALIAN MAIL PACKETS.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEwould now put to the noble Lord the Postmaster General he questions of which he had given notice; and he felt persuaded that their Lordships would not be surprised that there should be great anxiety on the part of all who were in the remotest degree concerned in the communication between this country and our colonies in the southern hemisphere, to have some explanation of the position in which the contract for the transmission of the mails between this country and those colonies now stood, and the course which the Government intended to take in order to render the service efficient. The circumstances were almost unexampled, and the subject was one of primary importance, not only to those who had correspondents or relations in that quarter of the world, but also to the Government. To enable their Lordships thoroughly to appreciate the force of the case which he wished to place before them, he trusted the House would allow him briefly to recite a few of the facts which led him to put his questions. In 1851 a Committee was appointed by the House of Commons to examine what course would be most desirable for the purpose of establishing mail communication between this country and Australia by steam; the Committee reported, and

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upon their Report the Government acted. He had not before him the contract finally entered into with the company in whose hands the service was placed; the contract had not been laid before Parliament: with the concurrence of the noble Lord, he now intended to move for the production of a copy of it; but he had a copy of the tender issued by the Admiralty. The tender was issued in December, 1851, and in the course of the following spring a contract was concluded with the company. He had no intention of casting any imputation on any member of the company. Of several of its directors he believed he might say, that if integrity on their part sufficed to insure the due execution of the contract, this contract would be faithfully executed; but this was not a personal question, and its merits did not turn on the individual capacities or responsibilities of directors. Whatever these might be, the proper steps did not appear to have been taken to secure the adequate execution of the contract. In the spring of 1852 the contract was entered into; and the tender accepted by the company contained these among its conditions:—To convey the mails by screw steam-vessels, by one of two routes, six times a year each way, and to deliver and receive mails at King George's Sound, Adelaide, Port Phillip, Sydney, and such other places as the Admiralty might from time to time direct. The course determined on, he believed, was, that they were to proceed by the Cape to King George's Sound, Adelaide, Melbourne, and Sydney; and in point of fact the necessity of touching at King George's Sound—a place where there were almost no settlers—made a difference in the voyage of 1,000 miles, or about a week in time. Further, the conditions stipulated that the speed, on the average, should not be less than 8½, knots an hour; that the vessels were to be subject at all proper times to survey by officers of the Admiralty, and defects discovered immediately made good; that the vessels were to be duly supplied and furnished with all necessary and proper machinery, &c.; that the days and hours of departure were to be fixed by the Admiralty. There was a penalty of 100 l. on failure to provide a vessel ready to put to sea at the appointed hour, and 50 l. for every day until it should put to sea, unless the default was proved to arise from circumstances over which the
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contractors and their servants had no control. There was a penalty of 100 l. for stopping, lingering, or deviating from the direct course, or putting back or returning, except from stress of weather or other unavoidable circumstance. The contract was to continue for sour years; "payments to be made quarterly, on the production to the Accountant General of the Navy of certificates from the proper officers that the contract had been strictly and punctually performed." The company, he understood, when it tendered, was not in possession of a single vessel. It was composed certainly of gentlemen well acquainted with business. The tender made by this company was for 26,000 l.; the next offer which was made by an established company, bonâ fide in possession of vessels was 54,000 l. It appeared that the Royal Australian Mail Packet Company had now four vessels in their service—the Australian, the Sydney, the Melbourne, and the Adelaide. And how had they performed the mail service? The Australian, which was the first vessel, was appointed to sail on the 4th of April, 1852; but it turned out that they could not get her ready by that time, and therefore one turn was omitted, and the departure of the first ship was deferred till the 4th of June, on which day she sailed. She arrived at Sydney on the 8th of September—in ninety-seven days. The distance was reckoned to be, on the usual voyage, something above 13,000 miles; taking it at 14,000, she had only made a speed of 148 miles a day; although she was required by her contract to perform at the rate of 8½ knots an hour, which would amount to 204 miles a day. On her return she left Sydney on September 24th, was driven by some defect or other, or want of coals, or something, to the Mauritius, and arrived at Plymouth on the 11th of January, 1853—a passage of 112 days; the speed being about 125 miles a day. The next vessel was the Sydney. She really sailed at the appointed time, the 4th of August last, and arrived at Sydney in the middle of November last—a passage of about 100 days; the speed being on the average 140 miles a day. She left Sydney on the 4th of December, and arrived at Plymouth on the 16th of March; a passage of 107 days, and rate 130 miles a day. This was the last of whose arrival out we had news. The Melbourne started next. She was origi-

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nally in Her Majesty's Navy, where, under the name of the Greenock, she was understood to be one of the slowest of Her Majesty's steamers. The company in August, in order to be provided for the October mail, proposed to the Admiralty to purchase this vessel, not by paying money for it, but laying down a vessel for Her Majesty in Deptford dockyard, of certain dimensions and upon certain lines, in exchange. Accordingly the vessel was transferred to the company. She was to sail on the 4th of October; she did sail on the 15th. Delays like those exposed persons to very great inconvenience. In the course of her voyage across the Bay of Biscay she broke down, and put into the Tagus for repairs, and again put to sea from Lisbon on the 21st November. She was last heard of as having arrived at the Cape of Good Hope on the 27th December, and left that place on the 1st of January to continue tier voyage, having been seventy-seven days out; she must have made not more than 100 miles a day. The Adelaide was to sail on the 4th of December; but, as usual, there were some deficiencies or imperfections, and she did not sail till the 18th. Then she was forced to put back, and she did not sail until a month after the time when she ought to have started. Next came the Australian, which had just been attempting a second voyage. She was to hare sailed on the 3rd of February, but did not sail until the 24th of February, and put back on the following day, the 25th. She sailed again on the 10th of March, but was forced to run back to Plymouth, after baying been in great danger in the Bay of Biscay, and he understood that she was now entirely withdrawn, and was on her way to London. The inconvenience to the public might be estimated from this summary: The Australian was delayed on her first voyage two months; in the case of the Sydney no delay took place; the Melbourne was delayed for 11 days, besides the stoppage at Lisbon; the Adelaide was delayed 14 days, one day in putting back, and afterwards 16 days—altogether 31 days; and, lastly, the Australian on her second voyage, was delayed in the first instance for 20 days, and afterwards for 18 days, making a total delay of 38 days. With regard to speed, the company were bound by their contract to convey the mails at a speed of at least eight knots an hour; but the Australian, in her voyage out, had performed only six miles
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per hour, and on her return about five miles an hour. The Sydney, on her outward passage, sailed at the rate of six miles an hour, and homewards about 5½. The Melbourne, on her outward voyage, made only four miles an hour. The average speed of these vessels was, therefore, only 5 3·10th miles per hour; and he thought he might ask whether it was not monstrous that so important a service should be conducted in so imperfect a manner; and he should like to be informed whether there were no means of withdrawing it from the hands in which it was at present placed, and of entrusting it to others? There was no question but that the service, if properly arranged, might be performed in two months, instead of as at present in 100 or 120 days; indeed he understood that lately, letters which had left Australia in the middle of November, had been received by way of India by the Overland mail in the middle of January, and that others which had been despatched from South Australia on the 16th January had arrived here on the 16th March. This fact proved, then, that the mail service to Australia might be accomplished in the course of two months, instead of occupying 100 days, or a longer period. He thought, moreover, there was reason to complain of the company, not only on account of the uncertainty of the service, but in consequence of the manner in which the passengers had been treated, It appeared that the company so entirely filled the Australian with freight, that it was necessary to despatch the passengers' luggage in another vessel; and the consequence was that those who had embarked on board the Australian had now been turned adrift with a very small part of their effects. It was not for him to say what should be done to remedy these evils; but he hoped the Government were prepared to adopt some measures on the subject. He must observe that he could not altogether exculpate the Government from some share in these mishaps, because power was given to them to ascertain, by means of the Government surveyors, whether the vessels were fit for the service on which they were to be employed; but, in spite of the existence of this power, the ships had been allowed to leave port evidently in a totally unseaworthy state. He found that one of the provisions of the tenders was, that "payments will be made quarterly by bills at sight on Her Majesty's Paymaster General, on the production by the contract-

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ors, from time to time, to the Accountant General of the Navy, of certificates from the proper officers that the contract has been strictly and punctually performed." If the contract was not strictly performed, therefore, the company would not be entitled to a single penny. Another condition of the tenders was this—
"The contractors shall not assign, underlet, or dispose of the contract, or any part thereof, without the consent in writing of the said Commissioners; and, in case of any deliberate or wilful breach thereof by the contractors, the said Commissioners may terminate it without any previous notice to them; nor shall they be entitled to any compensation in consequence of such determination."
He certainly considered that a more efficient arrangement with regard to this service ought to be made, and he hoped the Government would take any steps which they were legally justified in adopting in order to place the whole system upon a more satisfactory footing. He wished to ask whether the Government proposed to snake any arrangement for the more certain transmission of the mails to Australia; and whether they intended to take any steps for more effectually enforcing, or for terminating the contract for that object with the Royal Australian Mail-packet Company? He also begged to move for a copy of the contract entered into between the Admiralty and the Royal Australian Mail-packet Company.
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, that no apology was needed from his noble Friend for bringing before the House an occurrence which had caused such very serious public inconvenience, and so much disappointment and anxiety to private individuals. Before proceeding to answer the noble Lord's question, however, it was necessary that he should notice one or two points to which the noble Lord had alluded with reference to the contract entered into with the company, and the mode in which it had been performed by the latter. Although he did not wish to be considered as standing up as the champion of the company, which he had no desire to do, and which if he did his task would be a very difficult one, he thought it very important that any statement which might go forth from that House to the country should not appear to be at all overcharged. He might, therefore, be allowed to correct one or two of the statements which had been made by the noble Lord. The noble Lord had stated that there was an obligation on the part of the company to send a vessel to Australia
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in April last year. Now, the agreement between the Admiralty and the company was not entered into until the 2nd of June, 1852, and it was obvious that nothing relating to the performance of a contract made in June, 1852, could have been obligatory upon the company in the previous April. The 3rd of June, 1852, was the first day on which the contract came into operation. In order to set the noble Lord right on another point, he (Viscount Canning) would briefly recapitulate the opportunities of communication which now existed between this country and Australia. The noble Lord had stated that the uncertainty of communication with Australia arose from the shortcomings of this company; but he (Viscount Canning) must remind the House that the Royal Australian Mail-packet Company was not the only means of communication between England and the Australian colonies. There was, or ought to be, a regular monthly mail to Sydney, starting alternately from Plymouth and Southampton; the one mail being conveyed on alternate months by the Peninsular and Oriental Company, by way of the Mediterranean and the Isthmus of Suez; and the other, also on alternate months, conveyed by the Australian Mail-packet Company, whose vessels started from Plymouth, and went, by way of St.- Vincent's, the Cape, King George's Sound, and Port Phillip, to Sydney. There was not, therefore, that entire absence of all other communication with Australia which seemed to be supposed by his noble Friend. He (Viscount Canning) did not mention this in extenuation of the way in which the Australian Company had performed their duties, but in order to assure their Lordships and the public of there being still in existence a safe and reliable means of communication between this country and Australia. His noble Friend then proceeded to find fault with the way in which the company's vessels had performed their voyages; and the noble Lord's calculation, he believed, was, that the average number of miles run amounted to not more than 148 a day. He (Viscount Canning) could not help thinking that, in making that calculation, his noble Friend must have left out of consideration the stoppages which the company's vessels were called upon to make. They were obliged, if necessary, to deliver mails at St. Vincent's and at the Cape, and, after reaching the shores of Australia, to make two stoppages before they arrived

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at Sydney. It was therefore only fair, in calculating the amount of mileage performed, that these stoppages should be taken into consideration. He did not wish it to be understood that he was praising the Australian Packet Company for the punctuality or rapidity with which they had done their work; but he thought he could state more clearly than his noble Friend had done the particulars of their failures in these respects. With regard to the Australian, on her first voyage she was 95 days in reaching Sydney, and, according to the papers attached to the contract after it was signed, but which were equally binding with the contract itself, 79 days was the period allowed for the voyage. On the return passage this ship was 113 days in going over the same ground. In the one case, therefore, there was an excess of 16 days, and in the other of 33 days beyond the allotted period. With regard to the touching of the packets at King George's. Sound, he was not prepared to defend the arrangement under which that provision formed part of the contract. That contract, as he had before said, was signed in June of last year, and he was quite ignorant of the motives which induced the Government at that time to adopt this provision, though he had no reason to suppose that it was done without due consideration. He was, however, inclined to agree in the opinion that the stoppage at King George's Sound was, upon the whole, unnecessary. His noble Friend had correctly stated the various failures and mischances of that unfortunate vessel, the Australian. She ought, on her last voyage, to have left Plymouth on the 3rd of February; but before that day arrived a notification was received by the Admiralty from the company, announcing that the ship would not be ready to start on the 3rd, and begging that her departure might be delayed till the 23rd. The Admiralty gave their sanction to that arrangement; the mails were sent down to Plymouth on the 23rd, but the Australian was not ready, and did not start until the 24th. For that delay, without the sanction of the Admiralty, the company were fined, by virtue of the provisions of the contract, and that penalty would be enforced. On the 24th the Australian put to sea. On the 25th, as their Lordships saw from the public papers, she put back disabled, and with the mails she was conveying very seriously damaged. So far as regarded the public service, the Government felt it their duty, without re-
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ference to what might be the fate of the Australian, to provide for the immediate despatch of the letter part of the mails, as distinguished from the newspapers. It so happened that the 25th of February was within seven days pf the departure of the other branch of communication with Australia—the despatch of the next monthly steamer from Southampton. The letter portion of the mails was consequently sent to Southampton, and was there shipped on board the Peninsular Company's steamer, and was now on its way by the Mediterranean and Singapore to Australia. He did not apprehend that the public would suffer much inconvenience in consequence of this unfortunate accident to the Australian, for by the Mediterranean and overland route letters would reach Australia nearly as soon as if the Australian had proceeded on her voyage. After sundry examinations and repairs, and one or two experimental trips, it was announced to the Government that the Australian would be ready to start on the 10th of this month. She did start accordingly, with a new mail, partly for the Cape and partly consisting of letters which had been received at the Post Office for Australia since the departure of the Peninsular boat. On the 14th or 15th the Australian put back to Plymouth more than ever disabled (the mails, however, having suffered no injury), and he believed she was now on her way up the Channel to London for repairs. That portion of the last mail which was addressed to the Cape and to Natal was, on the return of the Australian, immediately transhipped to a vessel belonging to the Screw Steam Shipping Company, which sailed the next day. No serious delay would therefore take place with regard to those letters, and, in fact, the only portion of the mails which had been confided to this unfortunate vessel that would be at all retarded, and the delay of which would be attended with inconvenience to our fellow subjects in the Australian colonies, was the newspapers. This would, no doubt, be a great inconvenience to the colonists, but it would have been quite impossible for the Government to have made any arrangement for the transmission of newspapers by the mode in which the letters were sent. The conveyance of 150 large bags of newspapers across the Isthmus of Suez would have been utterly hopeless, unless the Government could have given due notice, that provision might be made for

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their transmission. The newspapers thus delayed would, in all probability, be conveyed from this country in the course of a day or two by some of those fast-sailing passenger vessels which were constantly starting from London or Liverpool for Australia, and they would in the ordinary course of things be delivered in the Australian colonies in from ninety to ninety-five days after leaving the coast of England. He believed he had now replied to the inquiry of his noble Friend, so far as it related to the transport of the present mails. With regard to the inquiry of his noble Friend whether Her Majesty's Government intended to take any steps for more effectually enforcing the terms of the contract with the Royal Australian Mail Packet Company, it was necessary he (Viscount Canning) should state that, during the time when those delays were occurring in consequence of the mishaps of the Australian, the Lords of the Admiralty received from the chairman of the company a letter setting forth the difficulties under which the company conceived they had been called upon to perform the service, praying for favourable consideration under the circumstances, and stating, that as it would be impossible for them to provide a vessel for the conveyance of the mails which ought to leave England in due course on the 3rd of April, they hoped the Admiralty would consent to forego the service for that month, and would be satisfied if a vessel was prepared by the 3rd of June. That letter was referred by the First Lord of the Admiralty to a Committee, which was now sitting to investigate the whole system of the Post Office Packet Service—a matter with reference to which the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought it advisable to obtain the assistance of certain Members of the Government, or persons in the employ of the Government, who were more or less conversant with that service. This Committee having had the letter in question before them, yesterday reported their opinion upon it. As, however, he (Viscount Canning) was not in a condition to state that any action had been taken upon this report or opinion, he hoped the noble Lord would not press him to give any distinct declaration of the terms in which that opinion was conveyed. It would, perhaps, be sufficient if lie assured the noble Lord and the House that the consideration with which the Committee approached the subject was, that while, on
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the one hand, it was most desirable that the Government should not hastily incur the charge of straining their legal rights, or pressing with unreasonable hardship upon a company that found itself in the difficulties in which this company was represented to have been, yet, on the other hand, it was their firm conviction that if the system of contract for packet services of this nature was to prevail, and if the public was to be called upon annually to pay very large subsidies to private companies for such services, it was the duty of the Government to insure to the public the enjoyment of what ought to be the result of all such contracts—a reasonable amount of punctuality, certainty, and despatch. He did not think it necessary to go further into detail. He was not quite sure whether the contract for which the noble Lord had moved was not already on the table, but, if not, it should be presented forthwith.
LORD COLCHESTERsaid, although he was not prepared to make the statement positively, he believed that the arrangement by which the Australian packets touched at King George's Sound was made for the convenience of Western Australia. It was undestood that, in the case of the first set of mails sent out in the Australian, some of the addresses had been totally erased, and he begged to ask whether the letters had been injured to any great extent in this respect?
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, he believed that the portion of the mails which had suffered most were the bags for Melbourne. On their return to London those bags were opened, and the letters dried—an operation which, of course, occupied considerable time. They were then repacked in boxes—such of them, at least, as had their directions still legible—and were sent, as he had stated, by the Peninsular and Oriental Company's steamers to Alexandria, and thence overland to Suez. There were, however, some letters—he believed between sixty and seventy—the addresses of which had been so entirely obliterated that it was found quite impossible to forward them to their destination. Under these circumstances they were dealt with as letters were usually dealt with the addresses of which were illegible; that is, they were sent to the Dead Letter Office. About one half of them had since been reclaimed by the persons who wrote them; the remains of about thirty more—he could hardly call

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them letters, for they were mere scraps of paper—were still at the Dead Letter Office.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, he understood that there need be no difficulty now in providing mails for Western Australia, inasmuch as the Peninsular and Oriental Company's steamers passed along the coast, and could easily convey them, in addition to their other cargoes. With respect to the speed of the Royal Australian mail-packet Company's steamers, it was quite true that he had not taken into consideration the number of their stoppages; but in the calculation which he made be had certainly left sufficient margin for any ordinary amount of delay from that cause. He wished to know whether the noble Viscount could inform him as to the cause of the late disaster to the Australian steamer?
VISCOUNT CANNINGreplied, that he could only partially answer the question of the noble Lord. The business was so thoroughly an Admiralty one, that it had not occurred to him to inform himself of all the details. He could not therefore speak with certainty on the subject, but be might state that he had seen a report from Captain Lowe, Admiralty surveyor at Plymouth, to the effect that on examination into the case of the Australian, it appeared that on her second voyage she started with something like 400 tons weight of coals, stores, and cargo beyond what she had carried on her former voyage—which former voyage, although not at the stipulated rate of speed, had been safely, he might even say prosperously, performed; and it was supposed that on the second voyage, this increase of weight being more than the vessel was able to bear, and the weather having been more than usually severe, her joints had opened and let in the water, by which her safety had become risked. This supposition appeared to be borne out by the fact that the vessel had been carefully inspected by the Admiralty surveyor before she started, and found to be all right; and also that as long as she was in smooth water she appeared to be well fastened, and watertight. The only explanation of which the affair seemed susceptible was that which had been suggested by Captain Lowe.

CANTERBURY ELECTION.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEmoved that the House do now adjourn.
The EARL of DERBYwished to ask a question of some Member of Her Majesty's Government upon a matter which he thought ought to be disposed of before the House rose. Their Lordships had in the course of that evening received a communication upon a very important subject from the other House of Parliament; and it was due to that House, in courtesy and respect, that their Lordships should pay the earliest attention to any communication from it, especially to one of such deep interest as the present. That communication had reference to certain proceedings which had been taken by the other House of Parliament under the Corrupt Practices Act, which was brought into operation last year, and with respect to which Act it was not unlikely that several other messages of the same kind as the one to which he was now referring would be received by their Lordships. As this was the first instance in which their Lordships had been called, under the provisions of that Act, to concur with the House of Commons, and to act in co-operation with that House for the purpose of effectually repressing those acts of bribery which appeared to have been so prevalent at the last election, be thought it important that their Lordships should ascertain from Her Majesty's Government what course it was their intention to pursue with reference to the message in question; because, that communication having been received from the other House of Parliament, it necessarily became the duty of Her Majesty's Government to suggest what course they thought it advisable for their Lordships to pursue with regard to it. He had expected that some communication would have been made to their Lordships on the subject before the Motion for the adjournment of the House. It was probably owing to inadvertence that that communication had not been made by some Member of the Government; but he thought it right to recall their attention to the circumstance, and to ask whether they were prepared to state what course they intended to recommend their Lordships to pursue with reference to the message which had been received from the other House of Parliament?
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, he was quite prepared to answer the question of the noble Earl. He apprehended that the only reason why no notice had hitherto been taken of the matter by any of his Colleagues was, that they had not been previously aware that any such message

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was to come from the House of Commons that evening. The course which Her Majesty's Government proposed to take, in consequence of the alteration effected in the measure of last year by the Amendment introduced by the noble Earl, was this—that in any case in which the House of Commons called upon their Lordships, in conformity with that Amendment, to join them in an Address to the Crown to issue a commission of inquiry into the state of any borough, their Lordships should send a message to the other House, requesting them to favour their Lordships with copies of the evidence which had been taken in the case. Her Majesty's Government considered that this would be a proper fulfilment of the obligations imposed upon them by the Act of last year. The noble Earl would possibly recollect that he (the Duke of Newcastle), for one, as well as the Members of the present Government, objected to the introduction of the provision by which this step was rendered necessary; but, of course, apart from any individual opinion as to the advisability of enforcing that provision, the Government considered it to be their duty to carry it out in a proper spirit; and he believed that this would be done by asking the House of Commons to furnish their Lordships with copies of the evidence which had been taken before the Election Committee. After that evidence had lain on the table a sufficient time to enable their Lordships to consider it, the Government would then propose that their Lordships should concur with the Commons in addressing the Crown, as provided by the Act of Parliament.
The EARL of DERBYsaid, that, as far as his judgment went, the course which the Government intended to recommend was that which the Act of Parliament appeared to require. He must say, however, that he differed from the noble Duke as to the propriety of that course, because it certainly appeared to him that when the House of Commons asked their Lordships to concur with them in addressing the Crown to issue a commission, their Lordships ought to have before them the evidence which had led the House of Commons to that conclusion. However, apart from the propriety of the step, this was the course which was prescribed by the Act of Parliament; and the course which the noble Duke had intimated that the Government intended to pursue was clearly the correct course. He did not know whether
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the noble Duke would have any objection, but it appeared to him that it would be more in accordance with the usual courtesy between the two Houses that their Lordships should not separate without sending some message to the House of Commons; and, perhaps, it would be better that they should request to be furnished, not only with copies of the evidence, but also of the report of the Committee.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, that personally he had no objection to the course proposed by the noble Earl. At the same time, he thought it would be a somewhat irregular course, and that it was undesirable as a precedent. He had not the slightest objection, however, to give notice that either he or some other Member of the Government would make a Motion to the effect suggested To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.