Lords Report of 16 June 1823

LONDON BRIDGE BILL.
The House resolved itself into a committee on this bill. On the clause for granting 150,000 l. from the Consolidated Fund, by instalments, for the building of a new bridge,
Mr. Humeobjected to the grant, unless an arrangement were made to secure the repayment of it to the public. If the government had more money, than it wanted, it ought to remit it to the nation in taxes. He believed that the city of London did not want a new bridge, and that it was a gross job. Every purpose of a new bridge might be answered by increasing the water-way of the old one, which he understood might be effected for 100,000 l.
Mr. H. Sumnersaid, that if the new bridge were a job, he was the author of it, but he altogether denied that it was a Job.
The hon. member then entered into variety of details, for the purpose of convincing the committee, that the present London-bridge was a nuisance to the city and ought to be taken down. He considered the sum now proposed a moderate one, and should therefore give the resolution his cordial support.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconfessed that he had originally been reluctant to make this grant to the city of London, without seeing means provided for its repayment. He considered that the building of London-bridge was not so much a local as a national object. A plan had been suggested for repaying the money by a toll, but this would have been liable to so much public inconvenience, that he had not thought it expedient to resort to this mode of repayment. After having given the subject much consideration, he had ultimately, though not without reluctance, come to the conclusion, that he was justified in acceding to the grant.
The Lord Mayoropposed the clause, and moved, that the Chairman report progress.
The House divided: For the clause 81, For the Amendment 12.

List of the Minority.

Astell, W.

Lockhart, J. J.

Calvert, C.

Monck, J. B.

Cradock, col.

Newnham, J. W.

Clinton, sir H.

Powlett, hon. W.

Dawkins, H.

Wells, J.

Hey gate, W.

TELLER.M

Lambton, J. G.

Hume, W.

IRISH TITHES COMPOSITION BILL.
The order of the day was read for going into a committee on this bill. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"
The Hon. G. Agar Ellisrose and said, that it was quite impossible for him to allow the bill, framed as it at present was, to go into any further stage of its progress, without entering his most decided protest against it. He had hitherto endeavoured, as far as he was able, to promote and assist its progress, hoping that the objectionable parts of it might be mended, and being, as he still was, fully convinced that a complete alteration in the Tithe system of Ireland was essen-
990
tially necessary to the well-being ad tranquility of that country. The decision of the House, however, on the last night when the bill was in a committee, in throwing out in toto the compulsory clause, had put it out of his power to concur further in any way in the prosecution of the measure. If this bill should unfortunately pass into a law, it would either be acted upon or not. If, as he believed, it would not be acted upon, it was surely a most criminal delusion on the people of Ireland, to pass it as a measure which was likely to be of service to them. If, on the other hand, it should be acted upon, it was still worse. For, burthened as it was by that most objectionable clause giving to the commissioners the power of increasing the actual revenues of the Church one-third, it could not fail greatly to increase the disaffection and discontent which at present prevailed in the sister kingdom. He felt obliged to add, and he did it with much pain, that in his opinion nothing could well be conceived much worse than the conduct of his Majesty's ministers this year with regard to Ireland. The began the session with the most flattering premises of amelioration of system, for which they received in return equally flattering promises. And now, the 16th of June was arrived, and he would venture to ask, what had they done towards performing those promises? Nothings—nothing at all—and he would prophecy, that at the end of the session, the only boon they would send over to his unhappy countrymen would be the new Insurrection act; which, if it was necessary, was so because the same infamous and temporising system of government, which had so long degraded and disgraced Ireland, was still persevered in. Upon the grounds he had stated, he should therefore oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, and move as an amendment, "That the further consideration of this Bill be deferred till this day six months."
Mr. Goulburndefended the measure, and expressed his hope 'that the House would proceed to render it as perfect as possible, though some of the objects originally in his view might not be accomplished by it.
Mr. Wetherellsaid, that as no man could expect that the bill would ultimately pass, it was a useless waste of time to proceed night after night with the discussion of the various clauses.
Mr. Calcraftobserved, that it would be but fair to let the right hon. gentleman complete the measure he had begun. If the House rejected the bill, the right hon. gentleman would only have to return to Ireland, and to tell the people there that he had had the most benevolent views towards them, but that the House had refused to let him proceed with a bill, which if perfected would have remedied all their grievances.
Colonel Barrythought it would be better to put an extinguisher on the bill at once, than hurry it through during the present session. He had no objection to proceed with the bill if it were allowed to stand over.
Mr. W. Bankessupported the amendment, as the bill, in no shape, could be rendered palatable to him.
Mr. S. Riceconcurred in the amendment, but gave government some credit for a disposition to remedy existing evils. He feared, however, that the measure was not capable of modification.
Mr. Humecontended that ministers had abandoned the ground upon which they introduced the bill. There was, besides, nothing useful in the bill. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to allow the people of Ireland to see that the delusion was complete, by discussing the whole of the Bill. Still he would vote for the amendment, if pressed to a division.
Mr. Peelcontended that no delusion had been attempted by government. If the present bill were lost, he should despair of originating any one which could satisfactory.
Mr. Abercrombyconsidered the bill as utterly useless without the modified compulsory clause, and therefore should vote for the amendment. He attributed the rejection of that clause entirely to the right hon. Secretary's (Mr. Peel's) sitting for the University, of Oxford.
Mr. Canningadmitted the inconvenience of occasionally giving the clergyman an augmentation of his income, but thought it far more dangerous to break through the rule upon which government had uniformly acted, of never compelling any transfer of property without giving the most ample indemnity. He trusted that the bill would not be lost in its present stage. If it was to be hung over to the next session, let it be first completed.
Lord Ebringtonsupported the amendment.
Mr. Ricardourged the impossibility of fixing exactly, under any circumstances, what should be the right of the clergyman.
Mr. Wynnsupported the principle of ample compensation. He begged to remind the House that in dealing with tithes in Ireland, they were not dealing merely with church property; as one-third part belonged to lay impropriators.
Sir J. Stewartsaid, that if the clergyman got the average of the last seven years without any addition, he would get more than he was entitled to. It would be better to put an extinguisher upon the bill at once.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that if the amendment was rejected, he would himself propose a modified compulsory clause.
The House divided: For going into the committee 51. For the Amendment 36. Majority 15.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Lindsay, hon. H.

Anson, hon. G.

Leader, W.

Bankes, W. J.

Lloyd, W.

Barry, col.

Moore, P.

Browne, hon. D.

Knatchbull, sir E.

Browne, James

Nolan, M.

Browne, Dom.

Normanby, lord

Brownlow, C.

Palmer, C. F.

Chichester, A.

Philips, G.

Dawkins, H.

Oxmantown, lord

Daly, J.

Tennyson, C.

Ebrington, lord

Ricardo, D.

Fleeming, J.

Stewart, sir J.

Fitzgerald, right hon.V

Wetherell, C.

Fitzgibbon hon. R.

Wood, M.

Forde, M.

White, col.

Hart, gen.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Ellis, hon. G. A.

Hurst, R.

Rice,T. S.

Kennedy, T.