Lords Report of 6 May 1806

MINUTES.
Their lordships proceeded to Westminster-hall at 10 o'clock,and returned about 4. An order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord Melville on Thursday.

AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.
Lord Sheffieldrose pursuant to notice, and said, he was fully aware he could not do justice to the cause he undertook; but he could not refrain from recommending the postponement of the second reading of the bill, until the petitioners against it could be heard; he observed, that, perhaps, petitions of greater importance, or more respectably signed, had never been presented to the house. The petition of ship-owners of the port of London, not only remonstrated against the general discretionary system of relaxing the navigation and colonial law, but it also stated the deplorable state of the shipping trade, and prayed that they might be heard in proof thereof. He observed, that there was not the slightest proof before their lordships, of the expediency or necessity of the measure; for he could not believe, that any attention would be paid to the stories that 15,000 slaves were starved in consequence of the navigation laws having been enforced. He then said, that judging from the declarations and conduct of the noble patrons of this bill, he thought himself justified in pronouncing that their great object was to prevent their lordships receiving any information, or going into any enquiry or examination; but if their lordships did not refuse to give time for the presenting petitions, and if they did not refuse to hear how the people were aggrieved, they would find it proved at their bar (and he pledged himself it should be proved), that not one person was lost in consequence of the navigation laws having been maintained; that the scarcity, and supposed loss of people (which instead of 15,000, did not amount to 1500) were the consequence of a hurricane, which destroyed the food of the negroes, and he would assert, that no operation of the navigation laws was at all in question, and drat the governors exercised
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the power of opening the ports as usual on emergency. He must notice an assertion, and an extraordinary assertion it was, that this measure was not an object for investigation or enquiry, but a kind of political measure with which the people had nothing to do, and that it merely transferred responsibility from West-India governors to his majesty's ministers at home; in other words, it took responsibility from those who alone could be judges of the necessity, and gave it to his majesty's ministers at a great distance, who could not possibly know any thing of the matter. This power, however, must be delegated to the persons from whom the responsibility was removed; that is, to persons who actually derive emoluments from the frequency of the abuse. If the petitioners were allowed to state how they would be aggrieved, they engaged to shew, that the British colonies in America which were in a rapid state of decline, in consequence of the suspensions of the navigation laws, must be utterly ruined even by this temporary measure; and that if the British empire cannot at all times furnish the necessary articles to the British West Indies (the contrary of which however may be proved), that the intercourse with the American States for supplies, might be permitted and might be most surely and most steadily carried on as heretofore in British shipping, navigated according to law, of which there is and has been a large number unemployed, since neutral vessels had been permitted to enter the ports of the British West Indies. They would shew, that if the ships of the American States were permitted to enter the States of the British West India settlements, under pretence of supplying provisions, they would at the same time introduce, as they did at present, all East India and European goods, to the great detriment of the East India Company, and to the manufactures and commerce of the United Kingdom; and also, that Ireland in particular would be deprived of the provision trade to the West Indies, to which she in common with the rest of the empire had a right, to return for the monopoly she afforded, at her own market, to the British West India produce; they would prove that the value of British shipping was greatly depreciated; that many were sold to the enemy and to neutrals, and that this nation was rapidly losing the carrying trade.— He should observe, that nothing is so ruinous to commercial speculation, especially when distant markets are in question, as uncertain and unsteady regulations; fixed

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laws and rules alone, will encourage true commercial speculation; and no man will engage in that commerce, which may, in a moment, be counteracted by uncontroled discretionary orders. He should ever protest in the strongest manner against measures, which have prevailed and are daily extending, to subject the navigation and trade of the country to the discretion of governors, or of a fluctuating committee of council; he added that, if the papers he had moved for had been granted, it would have appeared that there had been memorials and representations from almost every part of the United Kingdom, against the very suspensions and practices which were to be facilitated and established by the bill; and that the strongest remonstrances might be expected from our distant ports, as well as from those of Ireland. However the noble patrons of the bill might think proper to treat the petitions of the people of England, they should recollect what was the situation of Ireland. There were few more hearty well wishers to the Union of that country with Great Britain than himself; but if after taking away the parliament of that country, where they might have sought redress, they were refused to be allowed time and opportunity to be heard, he should greatly regret that the measure ever took place; and no assertion of any man should convince him, that this was not a subject on which the people were to be heard. His noble friend (lord Auckland) thought differently at the time of the Irish propositions. The question was, not merely whether the responsibility should be transferred, but, whether the suspensions of the navigation laws should be facilitated, and systematically established;— whether our West India settlements should be rendered completely dependent on the American States; whether our carrying trade and commerce should be thrown into other hands, and the British colonies in North America absolutely ruined. His lordship then moved, in order to give time to the petitioners to come forward and to be heard, that the order for the second reading of the bill be discharged, and that Friday the 16th instant be appointed for that purpose, and for hearing the petitioners —The motion was negatived without a division, Lord Grenville then moved that the bill be read a second time.
The Duke of Montrosecalled the attention of the house to the alarm which. had been excited by the manner in which this subject had been stated by the noble lord who originally proposed it, and by the sup-
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position that other measures might follow the present, which might have a serious effect upon the shipping interest of this country. The effect which the bill might have upon the shipping interest was, in this instance, no light consideration, as the trade to the West Indies employed from six to seven thousand seamen, and formed one of those nurseries for our seamen, which ought to be cherished and encouraged instead of being depressed or checked. in his view of the subject, the bill was neither politic or necessary. It was impolitic inasmuch as it went to authorise the suspension of our navigation laws, those laws to which we were originally indebted for our maritime superiority; it was unnecessary inasmuch as it only professed to do that which had been already done, and might be again in a manner less objectionable, by leaving it to the West India governors to act upon their own responsibility in cases of necessity. If on the contrary the governors were to be prospectively authorised to suspend the navigation laws, it should be recollected that it might frequently be to their interest to direct such suspension where no immediate necessity required it. He did not despair though he did not mean to assert it, that with our present maritime superiority, the West India islands might, even in time of war, be supplied in British bottoms by means of convoys. In a dine of peace there could be no doubt about it, and he denied that the calamities which a noble lord (Holland), on a former occasion, stated to have resulted to the West Indies from not suspending the navigation laws, had proceeded from that source, as they were the natural consequences of earthquakes and hurricanes. He was inimical to the present bill, not only on account of the positive evil resulting to the shipping interest of the country, from the suspension of the navigation laws, but on account of t hose measures still more injurious to that interest to which this bill might afterwards serve as a basis.
The Earl of Lauderdalethought the noble duke had rather been arguing against some speculative measure which he apprehended might at some future time, be brought forward, than against the present bill. He conceived the bill to be founded upon the soundest principles of legislation. What could more forcibly demonstrate its necessity, than the indemnity bill which parliament had passed year after year, for the purpose of indemnifying the governors of our West India islands for suspensions of the navigation act which were found to be absolutely

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necessary for the support and well being of the colonies? And was it not more constitutional, and more becoming the dignity of Parliament, that What was so found to be necessary, should be authorised, in certain cases, according to the discretion and under the responsibility of the executive government, than that violations of the law should continually take place, and the persons who infringed the law be as constantly indemnified? If, according to the argument of the noble duke, our West India colonies could be supplied by the mother country in time of war, how would such a mode of supply operate? There must necessarily be a heavy expence for insurance, besides other expences, which the merchant exporting must pay out of his pocket, and which, by rendering the commodity dearer, would ultimately raise the price of the produce of the colonies, to which such commodities were thus carried. On the contrary, by importing directly from America to the West Indies those articles which were necessary for the food of the inhabitants and the cultivation of the soil, none of these extra expences ensued, they were obtained at a cheaper rate, and were paid for in the manufactures of this country, thus equally promoting the sale of our manufactures and the comfort and the cultivation of our West Indian possessions, and increasing the produce of those islands. He did not believe that any nursery for our seamen would be affected by the bill; but if any seamen were thrown out of employ, there was a sure resource for them in the royal navy, and at a peace this trade would be again open to them for employment.
Lord Mulgraveprofessed himself by no means convinced by what had fallen from the noble lord who spoke last. With respect to the colonial system, which formed so important a topic in the present discussion, he thought the great advantage of possessing colonies, was the enjoyment of an exclusive trade with them; and which privilege in the mother country was but just and right, in return for giving them birth, and subsequently supporting them; a principle which in the former discussions of this subject, bad not been sufficiently attended to. The argument, that the provisions and articles required could be had cheaper from America, did not appear to him to be conclusive upon the point. He would admit the application of the noble earl's remark, that our seamen might be increased by the consequences of the measure; but no farther than in the
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first instance; prospectively, it would tend to diminish the number, by destroying, so far, a nursery for seamen. He supported the arguments of noble lords on his side of the question, with respect to the great commercial magnitude of the subject, and particularly as it regarded the concerns of the shipping interest, who, he trusted, would be heard by their council. He expatiated upon the great importance of the shipping interest, as the principal support of our foreign trade, being its necessary carrying medium, without which the manufactures of the country could not find their way to other countries. In short, the shipping interest was the vital principle of our commerce
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that if he understood the bill rightly, which, however, he thought very plain, none of the arguments hitherto adduced, had the least application to it. He thought he knew what he read, and if he did misread it, the language of the preamble of the bill, was sufficiently plain to warrant his assertion, and which, was accordingly quoted by his lordship; the bill, therefore, was no more than eventually to enable the said governors to exercise the same discretion legally, which before they were in the habit of doing under the pressure of circumstances; and for which, from year to year, they applied for a parliamentary indemnity; the present bill went to authorise the same discretion, when the necessity of the case appeared to them to require its exercise; that is, the bill, went to permit his majesty, by the advice of his privy council, to permit prospectively, the exercise of such a discretionary power in the governors, when they should see the necessity for using it. He deprecated the conjuring up, as some noble lords seemed to do, gloomy prospects, and prophecying the greatest national calamities, on an occasion; which merely went, in a decent and constitutional mode, to enable his majesty, with the advice of his privy council, to vest, occasionally, discretionary power in certain of his governors.
The Duke of Montroeshortly explained; he referred to the wise policy of our ancestors, who had placed the suspension of the navigation laws beyond the power of any privy council; and again contended for the paramount importance of preserving inviolate the investigation laws of the country.
The Earl of Caernarvoncontended warmly for the propriety and superior policy of the measure in question; which, in effect, was a continuation of a practice which noble

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lords had themselves countenanced from year to year, and not a single complaint had been heard against it.
The Duke of Clarenceprofessed himself a warm friend to the navigation laws; but he was nevertheless friendly to the present bill, which he conceived to be necessary for the support of our West India colonies The articles which were immediately necessary for the food of the inhabitants, for their habitations, and for the cultivation of the soil, were, with the exception of beef and pork, the growth and produce of America. For this country, therefore, to attempt to supply exclusively the colonies, must be attended with an enormous expence; whilst at the same, during a period of war, and particularly when, as at present, the enemy had adopted the mode of sending out flying squadrons to different quarters, the ships necessary to protect such a trade, would be more than we could spare fron those essential services to which our navy ought to be directed. He did not attach that importance to the trade carried on in British Bottoms, for the supply of our West-India colonies, which other noble lords seemed inclined to do, as he believed the vessels employed were small, being chiefly of the class of schooners; and with respect to the seamen on board those vessels, they were most of them Blacks, whom he did not wish to see employed in tint description of service. He did not mean to extend his opinion with respect to the necessity of such a measure as the present to a period of peace, as he thought during peace this country might, without difficulty, supply the colonies; but during war he clearly agreed in its necessity.
Earl Camdenobjected to the bill, and thought that the shipping interest of the country ought to have been heard by their counsel against it, in order that the subject might be fully investigated.
Lord Hollandsaid that he never wished to object to any class of his Majesty's subjects petitioning against any bill in that house being heard by their counsel against it; but the petitioners, in the petition presented by the noble lord (Sheffield), had, in a long and studied petition, objected generally to all suspensions of the navigation act, without stating any specific;grievance. Much had been said by noble lords of the evils which were expected to result from this measure; but he would ask, had any evil arisen from this system, which had for a long time been carried into effect by those very noble lords who now objected to it; on the contrary,
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our commerce and our shipping, so far from being injured, had increased. Experience, therefore, proved the wisdom of the measure Which had thus been acted upon, and which it was still intended to act upon by means of the present bill. In fact the very means they adopted to supply the West India islands tended to facilitate their cultivation, and increase their produce, and consequently to increase our commerce and our shipping. In carrying the produce of America to the West Indies it was too much to expect that British bottoms would be employed; we could, it was true, enact restrictions, but so could the states of America; and he deprecated any war or regulations with that power. The Americans were English in their habits and their dispositions, and the increase of their prosperity was a benefit to us, as a still greater mart would be found for English manufactures. As to our shipping interest, if an increase of it was to be forced, let it be done by any means rather than by speculating in the subsistence of our colonies.
Lord Hawkesburycontended, that our navigation was a paramount consideration, and that if the necessity should arise, partial sacrifices of our commerce ought to be made, to ensure the continuance of that system of navigation from whence had arises all our maritime superiority. The present bill, he maintained, was the first relaxation of the navigation laws enacted by a legislative act; it was a measure pot called for by the necessity of the case, and might he productive of the greatest evils to the shipping interest of the country. He acknowledged there did, at times, exist a necessity for allowing the importation into our colonies of articles essential to their use, in American bottoms; but he deprecated making a prospective regulation, and acknowledging the legality of such a trade. Objectionable as the mode certainly was, he still thought it better that the responsibility should rest with the Governors of our colonies, as it had hitherto done, of allowing such a trade, when they who were upon the spot should see the necessity of such a measure, than that such a discretion should be vested in the executive government at home, who could not know when such a necessity existed in the colonies. He agreed with his noble friend (lord Holland) in much of what he had said with respect to America, but he thought that concessions on our part should rather be the result of negociation, than talked of as if decided on in the first instance.
Lord Aucklandthought it unnecessary to

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argue the question at any length, as noble lords on the other side had not brought forward any statement to shew that no necessity existed for resorting to other means besides the resources of this country for the supply of our colonies, to demonstrate the fallacy of the reasoning which went to shew, that, by such a measure, our shipping and our commerce would be injured and decreased, he would state the results of papers on then lordship's table, which proved the direct contrary. In 1793, the number of trading vessels in the British empire was 16000; their tonnage was 1,500,000, and number of seamen employed in them 119,000. In 1804, the number of vessels was 21,000, then tonnage 2,800,000, and the number of seamen employed in them 153,000, and this during the continued operations of those suspensions of the navigation act in the West Indies, against which noble lords on the other side now so loudly protested. In the exportation of our manufactures also to the West Indies, instead of a diminution, a great increase appeared. The greatest quantity exported thither, in any year of peace, was 1,800,000 l., whilst upon an average of the last 5 years, the quantity was 3,300,000 l. In every point of view, therefore this measure was far from being detrimental to our commerce and our shipping. He denied that there was any alarm upon the subject. The provision trade of Ireland in particular were satisfied, as beef and pork had been recently excepted from the articles to be imported into the West Indies from America.
Lord Grenvillecould not conceive the utility, upon a discussion like the present, of entering into the consideration of abstract questions, such as that propounded by the noble lord (Hawkesbury), in the form of a supposition, that at some future period the interest of our commerce and navigation might clash. He did not believe that all history or experience would furnish any instance of this nature, nor did he believe that the question was likely to arise. He had always considered that the increase of our commerce produced the increase of our navigation, and our ship-building interest. He could not, either, see the necessity of introducing any discussion as to what might be proper to be done during a period of peace; no man knew, nor could any human being foresee, at what period peace might arrive: to consider, therefore, what, or what might not be proper to be done at an indefinite period, was totally irrelevant to the present question.
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There was one error into which statesmen were apt to fall, that of supporting old institutions when the circumstances which gave birth to them had ceased, or had been materially changed. He thought the noble lord had contended for our navigation laws in all their strictness, without a due consideration of the change of circumstances which had taken place since those certainly wise and salutary laws were enacted. He would not, however, enter further at present into the considerption of this subject. The bill now before the House was founded on propositions so plain, that he was surprised at the debate which had taken place upon it. Noble lords on the other side had, in objecting to the bill, condemned their former conduct; he would, however, defend them against themselves; their conduct, with respect to the West Indies, had been dictated by a due regard to the interests of the colonies, and had received the approbation of parliament. The present measure was founded on the same principles, with only the difference, that the power and responsibility were vested where they properly ought to be placed, in the executive government.
Lord Eldonwas inimical to this meassure, from the principles of it, as they went to legalise an act, which, by the law, as it at present stood, was unlawful; and, therefore, he considered it dangerous to leave that in the power and discretion of persons entrusted with official situations in those islands, which, at any time, might be exercised in too great a degree. It would, he continued, be a very hazardous experiment to resort to, and should only be thought of when our navy was not sufficient to supply those islands, without having recourse to the assistance of other nations.
Lord Sheffieldsaid, as their lordships had been detained there and in Westminster-hall so many hours, and as he had in part expressed his opinion on a former part of the discussion, he should not detain them at so late an, hour; but he must protest most strongly against the assertions which had been made, particularly in. respect to the state of the shipping trade and ship-building, and the expediency and necessity of the measure, almost every one of which, he would pledge himself to have disproved at the bar by the most respectable evidence and documents, if their lordships had not refused to hear the petitions.—The bill was then read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday next.—Adjourned.