HL Deb 24 January 2005 vol 668 cc1000-3

2.50 p.m.

Lord Beaumont of Whitley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my obvious interest as the sole representative of the Green Party at Westminster.

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will implement the recommendation of the Electoral Commission in its report on the funding of political parties that there should be "a modest expansion of the policy development grant scheme" to political parties with representation in the European and Scottish Parliaments and the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs (Baroness Ashton of Upholland)

My Lords, the Government have recently received the Electoral Commission's report on the funding of political parties and are carefully considering its recommendations. We are not yet in a position to make any firm decision on particular recommendations.

Lord Beaumont of Whitley

My Lords, although I thank the Minister for that not very informative answer, am I right in thinking that the Government are in favour in principle of representation in the legislature of significant bodies of opinion? Does she agree that the Green Party, of which I have the pleasure of being a member, which under fairer methods of election than exist for Westminster has serious representation in the European Parliament and the Greater London Assembly and a block of eight members in the Scottish Parliament, deserves better in the United Kingdom Parliament than one elderly self-appointed Peer? If so, will the Government please do something about it very soon?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, the noble Lord is too self-deprecating. He does an eminent job in representing the Green Party at Westminster. I hear what he says and recognise the implication. If we wish to have a thriving and vibrant democracy we need carefully to consider ensuring that we have the right kind of policy development for our political parties. On that basis, as I have already indicated, the Government are considering very carefully the recommendations put forward.

Lord Elis-Thomas

My Lords, I also declare an obvious interest as Presiding Officer for the National Assembly for Wales where, by our standing orders and by the Government of Wales Act 1998, members of subject committees are charged with a policy development role. Although we may expend, as we do, some of our limited budget from the Assembly Parliamentary Service to support them, that is no real alternative to policy development within parties. If and when the great work of my noble friend Lord Richard is implemented there will be even more policy development in the National Assembly for Wales that will need support.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, I am not entirely sure what question the noble Lord was asking me, but I might interpret the noble Lord's remarks to answer that this Government are of course committed to policy development. Indeed, in 2002 we introduced the policy development grant as a result of indications that political parties spent money on their campaigning and perhaps were not able to spend as much on the kind of development of policy that is important if one is going to the electorate.

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, while the Government are pondering this issue, will they also make it plain that they do not support the wholesale introduction of state funding for all political parties?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows well, there are clear issues to be discussed in relation to state funding. He knows very well the Government's position on that. When looking at democracy, it is important to ensure that political parties have support—hence the policy development grants, which have been largely and broadly welcomed. It is also important to look at the opportunities for people to indicate their support for political parties by being able to make donations, and to ensure that public money is used wisely and well.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords—

Lord Rennard

My Lords—

Noble Lords

This side!

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords—

Lord Rennard

My Lords—

The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos)

My Lords, there is enough time to hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches and from the independent Member behind me.

Lord Rennard

My Lords, I suspect that many of us have an interest in this issue; I certainly do. Does the Minister agree in principle that the relatively modest amounts paid to political parties through state funding in this scheme—which is currently accepted by the Labour Party, Conservative Party, the nationalist parties and the Liberal Democrat Party—is a better way of financing aspects of our democracy than for some political parties to be heavily dependent on a few big donations from a few very rich millionaires? Such donations may sometimes be seen to influence public policy or appointments or indeed, occasionally, government transactions.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, in a sense, the noble Lord indicates the point I made earlier that one is trying to seek balance in the way political parties are funded. The Government's position is clear. We introduced a policy development grant to support the development of policy by major political parties for very good reasons. There is a much broader debate, which is not for now, about state funding.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, since I am not a member of a political party, I will not declare an interest. Bearing in mind that we are told that people have lost interest in political parties and do not trust all of them, should people who stand for Parliament as individuals and independents also be included—after all, our system is still based on electing people and not parties? Is there not a case, on the grounds of equity, for seeing that taxpayers' money is also available to individuals to develop their policies to put before the electorate?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, the noble Lord takes a novel approach to the issue of state funding—for individuals to develop policies. I am not entirely certain that I agree with his analysis; nor do I agree with his statement that people have lost interest. If the noble Lord reads the Electoral Commission's report, he will see that it mentions that we have a vibrant democracy, which we shall see if and when we have a general election.

Lord Glentoran

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Northern Ireland political parties are a special interest group? They are exempt from most of the rules and regulations that apply to political parties in the rest of the United Kingdom. I believe that state funding for them—I in no way disagree with my noble friend Lord Strathclyde on the overall situation— could go a long way to helping the situation, which the Lord President understands very well.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, I am not entirely sure that I understand the noble Lord's question, for which I apologise. I will write to the noble Lord to indicate our view with greater clarity.

Lord Goodhart

My Lords, although I support the view of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, will the Government also give serious consideration to some of the other suggestions in the Electoral Commission's report, in particular the proposal to lower the cap on national expenditure in general elections and give tax relief to small donations to political parties?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, as I indicated, the Government will indeed be considering the report carefully. It is important to note that the commission is not proposing any radical new systems and was at pains to point that out. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, there are a number of different ideas within the report, which we shall of course consider with great care.

Lord Tebbit

My Lords, will the Minister do something to help my noble friend Lord Glentoran? The point of his question was that the Northern Irish parties are allowed to fundraise overseas, which is not allowed for any of the parties on the mainland. That really ought to stop. Indeed, neither is it appropriate for Sinn Fein to organise bank robberies to finance itself.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, I am not sure that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, for the clarification. However, I accept that these are complicated issues and, as the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, knows, we are consulting.

Lord McNally

My Lords, does the Minister agree with the maxim of the former organiser of the Labour Party, Dame Sarah Barker, that: The triumph of ideals must be organised"? There is a strong case for helping political parties to organise and recruit as well as develop policy. We should have no more hypocrisy from the Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat Parties because we have all been taking state funding for years.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland

My Lords, I do not believe that any noble Lords in their contributions were suggesting any form of hypocrisy. There is an important issue to be debated, relating to balance and the relationship between state funding, public money and the role of political parties, which I described in my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I am sure that we will discuss that issue further, both in your Lordships' House and in another place.