Public Assets: Disposal (Hansard, 13 January 2005)

§ Lord Clement-Jones
asked Her Majesty's Government: What action they propose to protect the category of heritage and cultural public assets identified in the Lyons report as "falling within the scope of the Government's proposals to meet their overall public asset disposal financial targets".

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey)
My Lords, it is the responsibility of individual departments to determine whether to retain or dispose of assets. Departments are aware that they need to take into account all aspects, not just financial, when deciding to dispose of an asset. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has published specific guidance on the disposal of surplus heritage assets, such as historic buildings. This is referred to in Chapter 24 of Government Accounting. The department will also advise on proposed disposals affecting heritage assets. This guidance has not changed in the light of Sir Michael Lyons' report, which made no specific recommendation in relation to the disposal of heritage assets.

§ Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, it is that latter point which concerns many of those who have read the Lyons report. There is, as the Minister has confirmed, no central register relating to the disposal of heritage assets. As a result of government targets, which are to dispose of some £30 billion of publicly owned assets by 2010, there will be pressure on government departments. What 356 guarantee can the Minister give that the DCMS will ensure that the guidelines are observed by other government departments?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the short answer is that the guidelines of 1999, to which I have referred, which are in Government Accounting, still apply and are not affected by Sir Michael Lyons's report. They say that the aim must be the best return for the taxpayer, consistent with government policies for the protection of historic buildings and areas. That is the protection which is required.
In addition, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, may remember that a couple of years ago the House of Lords scored a victory when it prevented the sale at auction of what was called the "Treasury silver", the Privy Council silver. Those cultural assets were transferred to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and are on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum. There is protection for heritage assets; there is no threat to heritage assets from the Lyons report.

§ Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, how many departments are there? Does each department now have a committee headed by an assistant secretary looking at the assets to be disposed of? Does each department then in turn have to register with the Treasury, or whatever, and say, "These are the assets we want to get rid of"? As the noble Lord, Lord Cement-Jones, said, would it not be much better to have a central register and a central group of people to look at all our assets, so that there is no second, third and fourth-time guessing?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, has caught up. We published the first National Asset Register in 1997. A revised and improved version was published in 2001 and the new one is expected shortly. The National Asset Register is exactly what the noble Baroness asks for.
In addition, English Heritage has a Government Historic Estates Unit, which produces a biennial conservation report that reports on the state of the heritage assets held by government. Furthermore, there is a great deal of protection for assets through the Museums and Galleries Act, charitable status and so on. We know a great deal more about the heritage assets held by government than we have done in the past.

§ Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question for clarification.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, I just want to know why there are 30 different committees. Why cannot there just be one to deal with the disposal of the assets?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, there is no need for 30 different committees. The Government set out a strategy and target for the disposal of assets. I am 357 sure that, as somebody with experience in business, the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, would agree that the operational use of assets is a valuable adjunct to government economic planning, but it does not require any additional bureaucracy.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, I am a bit surprised. At one point my noble friend seemed to be saying that disposing of financial assets is entirely a matter for departments. Can my noble friend clarify that? Does he mean that the Treasury takes no interest whatever?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, on the use of assets held by government, government departments are not set total targets and they are not told which assets to dispose of. The important point, which my noble friend Lord Barnett will remember from our debates a couple of year ago, is that under this Government operational assets are treated as a capital charge on the departments concerned. Therefore, the depreciation on those assets is counted against those departments' accounts. So there is pressure on departments to dispose of assets which are surplus to the department's requirement. I suggest to the House that that is a very desirable thing.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, is there not an underlying problem that is very relevant to the noble Lord's question? There are large numbers of works of art that are publicly owned—sometimes by central government, sometimes by local government, and sometimes, indeed, by museums—sbut are not catalogued. Is it not undesirable that these assets should not be catalogued? That means that, first, they probably will not be looked after; and, secondly, they may be disposed of inappropriately by one means or another. Will the noble Lord encourage the cataloguing of all publicly owned works of art?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, that is exactly what the National Asset Register does. If the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has any evidence of uncatalogued assets I should be glad to hear it because it is a matter that would concern us. Of course it is important that we should know what our assets are and that those assets should perform financially when necessary. It is also important that they should be disposed of if they are not performing financially. But I emphasise that heritage assets are not counted in that sense; they are not a charge against departments; and departments are not encouraged or forced to dispose of them for financial reasons.

§ Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, does the Minister recognise that one of the virtues of the victory that the House of Lords won two years ago was to remind the Treasury in this Administration that candle ends are still important?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, it was not a failing of the Treasury that had ever occurred to me. I thought that it had always had candle-ends departments.

§ Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, the Minister paints a very rosy picture, but is it not a fact that there is no 358 central disposal of heritage assets and the DCMS guidance does not cover assets such as pictures and other works of art?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
No, my Lords, I am painting an accurate picture of the situation. There is pressure for the disposal of non-performing assets other than heritage assets. Heritage assets are protected by the fact that they are not a capital charge on the departments that own them. The guidance that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport gives on the proposed disposal of heritage assets is that it should be in accordance with government policies for the protection of those assets. That seems to be a 100 per cent answer to the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.