HL Deb 12 January 2005 vol 668 cc249-51

2.44 p.m

Lord Berkeleyasked Her Majesty's Government

Whether the proposed exclusion of "waiting time" from calculations of the total hours worked by lorry drivers under the draft Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations complies with the intent of the Working Time Directive and will contribute to overall road safety.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, in line with the text of the directive, the UK regulations allow waiting time to be excluded from the working time calculation only when its duration is known about in advance by the mobile worker.

Lord Berkeley

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that waiting times for hospital doctors, which normally means that they are on call and that they can be asleep with a pager to wake them up, are excluded from the calculation of time under the Working Time Directive? Does he agree that there are safety issues in relation to both the road transport industry and hospital doctors, and will he commit to reviewing the regulations to ensure consistency across the different disciplines and compliance with the intent of the directive?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, my noble friend has thrown me somewhat by a cross-reference to the health service when I have been briefed on drivers' hours. I shall make the obvious points. There is an additional safeguard to the Working Time Directive on drivers' hours requirements under EU legislation, which is implemented by us. The operation of our very important transport industry would be profoundly difficult if all waiting time were included. It would mean that double-manning of lorries, for example, would be almost impossible to implement because of the excessive cost. Cost factors are important in an industry that is open to such competition.

Lord Bradshaw

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the new regulations will apply to drivers of foreign lorries while in this country? If so, will the prosecution take place within this jurisdiction or in the jurisdiction from which the lorry has come? Is he satisfied that the enforcement facilities available here will cater for about half a million vehicles?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, there is no provision for roadside tests in relation to the Working Time Directive. The infringement of the law by lorry drivers from foreign parts would relate to drivers' hours as measured by the tachograph on vehicle inspection. If that infringement occurred within the UK, it would be prosecuted accordingly.

Earl Attlee

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest as president of the Heavy Transport Association. Are owner/drivers excluded from the regulations, and if so, why?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, the issue of owner/drivers is carefully defined under the law to ensure that there is no evasion of the requirements by moving people who are directly employed into what might look like the owner/driver sector. There are clear, watertigsht regulations for each, but the answer is straightforward. Of course, the owner/driver would be governed by the driving hours regulations, but the purpose of the law is not to circumscribe the amount of hours that an owner/driver puts into his business.

Viscount Astor

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, once this directive comes into force, operating costs to the industry will rise by perhaps more than £3 billion and the number of trucks on the roads will probably increase by between 2 and 3 per cent? When British operators face substantially higher costs than their EU counterparts, what are the Government doing to make them more competitive?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, because of those considerations, we sought derogation over a long period —since 1993—before implementing these new regulations. They have been the subject of extensive consultation. As the noble Viscount, rightly identified, there are costs to the industry, but those costs are being borne by the industry right across Europe. They relate to the proper safeguarding of the working time of people who work in the industry and are backed up— as I indicate again-by the regulations on drivers' hours to guarantee issues of road safety.

Lord Berkeley

My Lords, following the question of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, the original Working Time Directive excluded owner/drivers right across Europe—until 2009 I believe. Therefore, will the Minister confirm that although owner/drivers are covered by the drivers' hours regulations, as he said, the owner/drivers Working Time Directive will not apply? I trust that the Government will take care to ensure that people do not turn themselves into owner/drivers to get round these regulations.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, that was exactly the point I sought to emphasise in my response to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. We are concerned that there should not be slippage across one category of driver to another, and we have firm regulations in place to ensure that that does not occur. As I have indicated, this directive relates to workers in the industry who are employed.