MONEY (Hansard, 27 October 2004)

§ Lord Glentoran
I remind the Committee that the noble Lord who has just spoken purports to be in support of devolution for Northern Ireland and of the Northern Ireland Assembly and is a member of the Ulster Unionist Party. What he has just said runs totally against all that thinking and the Committee cannot possibly take him seriously.

§ Lord Maginnis of Drumglass
I want to make it clear at the outset that my noble friend does not speak on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party or claim to do so, and nor, indeed, do I. We both have a free vote on hunting.
I, too, shall speak briefly on this issue. The last occasion on which I spoke on this issue was in another place on 13 March 1998. I managed to fill 12 tightly packed A4 pages. Much good though it may do the Committee to hear the arguments that I brought forward then, I shall not impose that on it this evening. Suffice to say that in an island like Ireland, with Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom and the 1377 Republic quite independent, where hunting takes place across the border, so many complexities are involved that we cannot realistically have a ban on hunting in Northern Ireland while it occurs in the Irish Republic. Much though I have done throughout my lifetime to emphasise the importance of the border, I have never managed to get that message across to either foxes or hounds. By that remark I indicate the difficulty there would be in applying a ban on hunting to Northern Ireland.
I have one other point to make. The alternative to hunting foxes is to shoot them, or so we are told. Strict legislation has been passed in Northern Ireland that precludes a lot of people who would need to have shotguns to kill foxes if hunting were banned from having those shotguns. That is yet another reason why on this rare occasion I disagree with my noble friend who has just spoken.

§ Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
I declare the briefest of interests in that during my time in Northern Ireland as a Minister I used to go out beagling until the Irish Times put on its front page that I was doing so. Given the hazards I faced from hunt saboteurs rather more dangerous than those to whom other hunts are subject I was obliged to desist.
My noble friend Lord Glentoran and the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, spoke of the overall principle regarding Northern Ireland. In the context of the debate that we have just had on the upland and the fell packs, I should say that what the noble Lord, Lord Laird, said about blood lust did not apply to the beagling in which I took part. I remember few occasions in Northern Ireland that I enjoyed more than what began as a tea party when the beagling was over and elided at about a quarter to five into Irish whiskey, and where "craic" went on throughout the evening. It was a remarkable social occasion and the epitome of rural life in Northern Ireland.

§ Lord Whitty
I suspect that, as regards the Committee stage of this Bill, we would all have liked to get to the Irish whiskey by a quarter past five.
I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Laird, as if this Bill passes, in whatever form, Northern Ireland would be the one part of the United Kingdom not covered by the legislation. However, regrettably, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, is correct on the devolution position; namely, that it is not a matter that we would normally deal with through primary legislation which applies to England and Wales. The animal welfare legislation that applies there is different from that in Northern Ireland, and the way to extend it would not be by extending the scope of a piece of primary English and Welsh legislation. Therefore, I advise the Committee that it would be difficult to do what the noble Lord proposes, however strongly he feels and however desirable we may or may not consider it to be.

§ Lord Laird
I totally accept what the Minister said; I expected that response. I simply make the point as an 1378 Ulster Unionist that it seems to me that for us in Northern Ireland to be out of step with the rest of the United Kingdom is not an admirable situation. I do not care about the difficulties of whether foxes have read the legislation, as my noble friend Lord Maginnis of Drumglass said. It is an issue of principle: one cannot commit cruelty to animals on the basis of a sport. It does not matter whether that occurs in Northern Ireland, in Wales or in England; it is wrong.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, that it is possible to have "crack" in Northern Ireland without being cruel to animals. I have "crack" in Northern Ireland—I do not refer to the drug but to excitement, fun and banter—on a regular basis, but that does not involve indulging in blood lust against small animals. That cannot be right, whether it is here or in Northern Ireland. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, it might help Members of the Committee if I pointed out that Amendments Nos. 82 to 85 were de-grouped, so will come with the remainder of the amendments tomorrow morning.