Commissioner for Public Appointments (Hansard, 16 November 2004)

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, first I should like to take this opportunity to place on record the Government's appreciation of the fine work undertaken by Dame Rennie Fritchie in this important area.
As part of its 10th inquiry, the Committee on Standards in Public Life is looking at public appointments issues, including the work and role of the commissioner. The committee expects to report at the turn of the year. In these circumstances, we have asked Dame Rennie if she would be willing, exceptionally, to extend her appointment to the end of July to allow us time to consider the committee's findings before making any long-term decisions about future arrangements.

§ Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that in the years since the commissioner began her duties, there has been an impressive increase in public confidence in the independence of the appointments process? Can the Minister assure your Lordships that any future arrangements for public appointments will maintain at least that same guaranteed independence from ministerial interference as the present commissioner has achieved? Will he also confirm that pressure to encourage diversity in appointments will be maintained, particularly for chief executive and chairmanship roles?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I certainly agree that there has been a great improvement in public confidence in public appointments which are covered by Dame Rennie's post. Again, I pay tribute to Dame Rennie for the importance of that work and her part in it.
I also agree with the noble Baroness's latter comments and observations. It is very important that we keep the pressure up in terms of encouraging diversity. Progress to date shows that there have certainly been improvements 1299 since 1997 which build on the improvements that had accrued before that time. We now have a process of appointments which ensures that we are moving towards a more equal representation of men and women in public appointments, a pro rata representation of ethnic minorities and an increased participation of those with disabilities.

§ Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, is not the real problem the very limited remit which Dame Rennie Fritchie has been given? I agree with the other comments the Minister made. However, I remind him—and I gave his office notice of this question this morning—of the controversy that surrounded the advertising for the chair of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. This appeared to be in breach of the Treasury rules that no new appointment of this kind should be made before the relevant Bill has had its Second Reading in another place. So why did Dame Rennie Fritchie say to me that although the wording of the advertisement made it "completely clear" that the position was for a chairman post, the issue that I raised of the propriety of the advertisement was, a matter which falls outside my remit"? What is the point of having a public appointments commissioner if an issue of propriety such as that cannot be within her remit?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for providing advance notice of his question. I am not in a position, unfortunately, to provide him with a full answer, although I am happy to ensure that we do so.
On the noble Lord's point about the commissioner's remit, the Government believe that the current powers of the commissioner are effective. The commissioner's role is to monitor, regulate and report on ministerial appointments, and I think that the current commissioner does an excellent job. It is worth reminding ourselves that her code of practice is, after all, mandatory for all departments, and she has a well established complaints procedure. Those provide a robust test. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, paid great tribute to the way in which Dame Rennie has conducted herself, ensuring that the Government are kept on their toes and accountability is in place.

§ Lord Sheldon
My Lords, following last Friday's debate on the ageing population, will Dame Rennie Fritchie, or her successor, be taking account of the point that appointments in most cases will not be age-related but will be based on a person's suitability for the position that he or she seeks to occupy?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, public appointments have to be made on merit. No doubt Dame Rennie will take note of the comments made in that very important debate. I shall play my part in drawing them to her attention.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, does the Minister recall the outrage and indignation on the Labour Benches when it was reported that Mrs Thatcher's reaction to a 1300 particular public appointment was, "Is he one of us?"? Has he read Dame Rennie's comment in her annual report that says: I was concerned to discover in the course of the last year that four Departments were routinely shown shortlists privately to Ministers during the appointments process … I was particularly concerned that the unrecorded involvement of a Minister at such a late stage in the appointments process could be interpreted as political interference or personal preference"? Is not Dame Rennie right? Can the Minister assure us that that practice has ceased? Will he also assure us that when the Government do get round to appointing somebody to succeed Dame Rennie, it will be somebody with her independence of mind, which is what this post really needs?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on the importance of independence of mind. Dame Rennie's work tells us just how important that is; the way in which she has conducted herself says a lot for that post and the important role that it plays.
I am aware of the debate in Whitehall about the level and role of ministerial involvement in appointments. After all, Ministers are held to account for those appointments. I am also aware of the comments to which the noble Lord has drawn my attention; we have had this debate before. For that reason, the Committee on Standards in Public Life is looking at that issue. There are issues of concern, and a debate is taking place about the level of involvement and the appropriateness of Ministers having their attention drawn to particular shortlists at a particular time in the process. We recognise the importance of that issue. There is a debate to be had, and we await with interest the committee's findings.

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, I am interested to hear about this debate in Whitehall. Will the Freedom of Information Act allow the rest of us to join in the debate about the very serious accusations made by Dame Rennie, to which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has drawn attention? Can we also expect that the welcome extension of her term of office will mean that the Government will be in a position to say what they will do about these accusations before she retires so that she can deal with them?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I rather hoped that the noble Lord would congratulate the Government on the way in which they have conducted themselves with regard to public appointments. After all, it is our Government who have ensured that we have the transparency that we currently enjoy, which enables the noble Lord to make the point he makes across the Dispatch Box.

§ Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, can the Minister explain why, having politely been given notice of a 1301 question by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, he is not in a position to answer the very serious matter raised in the question?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I accept that the noble Lord has made a serious point. It is for that reason that I want to be in a position to provide a thoroughly well researched response.