Fisheries: Net Mesh Sizes (Hansard, 3 November 2004)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty)
My Lords, the appropriateness of mesh sizes varies between fisheries. Eighty millimetre mesh would be appropriate for some fisheries. However, if mesh net sizes are too small for the fishery, juvenile and under-sized fish may be caught and then have to be discarded. EU mesh sizes are due to be reviewed next year.

§ Baroness Byford
My Lords, I hope that the Minister is as appalled as I am that this practice is continuing. As I understand it, fishermen using the 80 millimetre nets are allowed to fish for 22 days a month, whereas those using the more environmentally friendly 110 millimetre mesh nets are allowed to fish for only 17 days. In addition, 90 per cent of the catch caught by fishermen using the smaller mesh size is made up of juveniles, which have to be discarded. Is it not time that the Government did something about this, because discarding 90 per cent of a catch is totally unacceptable?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the mesh size is dependent on the fish which are being sought. In mixed fisheries, it is somewhat difficult to set an entirely appropriate mesh size. For example, in the case that probably gave rise to this Question, sole and plaice are often caught together, and although 80 millimetre mesh nets are appropriate for sole, they are not appropriate for plaice, which is a larger fish. Therefore, some fishermen go for the higher mesh size and do not have the problem of catching smaller or juvenile fish which they have to discard. The number of days' fishing is, of course, a measure to conserve stocks.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, when are we going to withdraw from the common fisheries policy, which is designed to allow the greed of our European partners to destroy our fishing industry? How can the 302 discarding of immature fish, which have not had a chance to breed and which get caught in the 80 millimetre nets, be consistent with conserving fish stocks?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, we are not withdrawing from the common fisheries policy. I know that certain noble Lords and certain political parties think that that is an option but, frankly, they are in cloud cuckoo land. We are dealing with a situation in which we know that the common fisheries policy has not been the most appropriate, but a common fisheries policy of some sort is necessary. We are just at the point where, in view of recent agreements, the common fisheries policy is taking conservation seriously—some would say for the first time—and this would be absolutely the worst time to withdraw from it.
On discards, if the appropriate mesh size is used, there will be only limited discard. The problem is that in mixed fisheries there is sometimes a move to go for the lowest common denominator. Where that also relates to limitation on fishing days, the fishermen can be hit twice over. As I said, the question of the size of the mesh is being reviewed next year.

§ Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is quite a subjective subject, because we are discussing unknown quantities of by-catch? Will he indicate whether trawler skippers in the UK and other countries in the EU keep records of the quantity of by-catch? Do these exist within the UK? Will he consider going to his EU colleagues to discuss whether this needs to be tightened up, which I believe it does, within the whole of the European Union?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, it is certainly a complex matter, particularly in mixed fisheries. The records of by-catch are systematically kept only if they are landed. While individual trawler skippers may well keep records of roughly the amount they discard, these will not be systematic. It may be that tighter records are necessary but frankly you cannot be absolutely precise in terms of fishing practices. That is why it is more appropriate to specify and enforce mesh sizes appropriate to the predominant species of fish that is being caught and to have measures to restrict fishing in order to preserve stocks.

§ Lord Eden of Winton
My Lords, will the noble Lord go a little further regarding the answer he has just given? Since it is clear that a number of fish species are in danger of extinction, can he say to what extent there is co-operation from the fishing industry? Secondly, what action, if any, is being taken by countries such as Russia and Spain to restrain the hoovering up of the seabed and indiscriminate slaughter of all marine life through the practices that they adopt?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, certain fish stocks—including cod, most dramatically—are undoubtedly in danger. 303 That is why the EU fisheries policy has brought in quite severe restrictions on the number of fishing days on which we can fish for cod and other species in that category. For some other species, however, the stocks are relatively flourishing. The rules on landed fish and the type of net will apply to anybody fishing within EU waters. It is of course true that the enforcement of these rules is not 100 per cent. The Government are keen on ensuring that the rules reflect conservation needs and that they are enforced in all EU countries.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, can the Minister tell us how many people are employed in checking the nets the fishermen are using?

§ Lord Whitty
No, my Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord, but there are two issues here—the enforcement onshore and the degree to which there is surveillance at sea. The latter is bound to be fairly random, but onshore there are relatively tight controls on the nets that go to sea.

§ Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I declare an interest as patron of the National Lobster Hatchery in Padstow in Cornwall. As the Minister well knows, my family have been in the fishing industry for about 400 years so I hope that he will not assume that my next question is all about cloud cuckoo land. What we are doing down in Cornwall is ranching and seeding for future generations. We hope that the Government will encourage that. I am concerned about the continued use of these cod-end nets. What are Her Majesty's Government doing to protect the inshore fishery—that is the inshore fishery not the British fishery—and the future of my National Lobster Hatchery among many others which are trying to use modern methods around our coastal waters? We are finding ourselves increasingly invaded by discarded fish or by other partners in the Community who do not seem to worry about the rules quite as much as we do.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the Government greatly encourage the development of fish stocks and fish breeding in the inshore as well as deep-sea fisheries. It is important that the rules adopted by the EU on the conservation of deep-sea fish do not lead to side effects hitting inshore fisheries. Again, that is an issue of enforcement both by the UK and other member states.

§ Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, does the Minister agree with this EU policy when 90 per cent of some catches is discarded? If not, what are the Government doing to protect our marine environment?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the Government are taking many measures to protect the marine environment. The level of discard to which the noble Lord refers occurs in the relatively limited but nevertheless deplorable circumstances when the net size is not appropriate to the fish caught. Therefore, I do not agree with the outcome, but it is not part of the policy. The policy is to set the mesh size appropriate to the fishery and to limit the degree of fishing so that stocks are not endangered.