European Union Legislation (Hansard, 10 May 2004)

§ The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos)
My Lords, figures are not held centrally for all legislation. About half of all legislation with a significant impact on business, charities or the voluntary sector is introduced to implement European Union decisions with the proportion varying considerably from one policy area to another.

§ Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for that reply which is slightly different from that on the Cabinet Office website which states that 50 per cent of all major legislation starts in the EU. Is it not a remarkable admission that 50 per cent of major laws—and presumably an even higher proportion of minor laws—are made in the EU? Does the Minister agree that the relevant figure might become 60 or 70 per cent in a few years' time? Given that much EU legislation cannot be amended and cannot in practice be rejected by Parliament, how can it seriously be disputed that parliamentary proceedings are increasingly becoming a charade, and that because so much legislation is coming from Europe, the EU is acquiring the characteristics of a government?

§ Baroness Amos
My Lords, the noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with him. As regards 2 the degree to which the legislation of individual departments comes from the European Union, the position in December of last year with respect to the Home Office, for example, was the following. During the 2002–03 Session it sponsored five Bills of approximately 868 pages. One of the Bills predominantly implemented EU requirements, another partially implemented EU requirements. The situation differs depending on the department. The 55 per cent figure related to Defra. The figures were very different for other departments. With respect to the noble Lord's point about amending or rejecting EU legislation, he will know that significant negotiation is conducted by our Ministers and others, usually in Brussels, before we reach the point where we agree anything.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, how many of the regulations to which the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, referred stem from the Maastricht Treaty to which he gave such strong support? As an alternative to the suggestions that he made, has my noble friend had any serious proposals to amend the present situation other than that Britain should leave the European Union?

§ Baroness Amos
My Lords, my noble friend is, of course, quite right in the sense that the party opposite negotiated the Maastricht Treaty. A significant proportion of regulations came out of that treaty. With respect to the current proposals for a constitutional treaty, our proposal is to negotiate because we believe that Britain's role is at the heart of Europe. So far as I understand it, the alternative being offered by the Leader of the Opposition is withdrawal from Europe.

§ Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, following the perfectly proper question of the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House at least reassure us that in the current negotiations the Government really will support proper blocking powers for national Parliaments against inappropriate and excessive EU legislation; in 3 other words, that they will adopt the red card and will not let us down on this matter as well as on some of the other red lines which they claim to defend?

§ Baroness Amos
My Lords, I do not know to what the noble Lord refers when he says that we have let ourselves down with respect to any red lines. The Government published a White Paper in which they made clear our red lines. My right honourable friends the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have made it absolutely clear that those red lines will remain. We have been absolutely clear about the areas where we see some extension of qualified majority voting and those areas which have to retain unanimity.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, does the Minister accept the figures regarding the percentage of British legislation that is shaped by international obligations such as those under the World Trade Organisation, the United Nations or other international and UN agencies? Does she further accept that even if Britain were to leave the EU, we would still be bound in our domestic legislation by a whole series of international obligations of this kind and that the experience of the one administration that has set out to declare that it is outside and above international law—the Bush administration—has not been entirely happy in disregarding its obligations under international law?

§ Baroness Amos
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point. Of course, a great deal of our legislation is shaped and influenced by international obligations that go beyond the European Union. One of the difficulties in answering this Question is that when you begin to look at the shaping and influencing of legislation, it is sometimes much more difficult to pin down than is suggested by the way in which the Question is framed. The noble Lord is right to draw our attention to the fact that even if this country were to leave the European Union, which, of course, I and my party do not want to see, we would remain bound by some of its provisions.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will the Government now consider collecting these figures centrally? If they are not collected centrally, how are we to have an intelligent argument about what influence the European Union has on our legislation? My second question is the following. Since most of this legislation is automatically translated into British legislation, is there any longer a need for a House of Commons of 659 Members and a House of Lords of nearly 700 Members?

§ Baroness Amos
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon is, as usual, robust. With regard to collecting that information centrally, individual departments keep the information on the proportion of legislation that is introduced to implement EU decisions. It would be helpful if I reiterate the point that it would be wrong to see the issue as an imposition of regulations from outside. We 4 take a very active part in collective decision-making in the EU and information on that is kept by individual departments. The size of the House of Commons is a matter for the other place, but it is important that we have MPs representing the constituencies that there are. The size of the House of Lords is a matter that your Lordships may wish to look at and think about in terms of the future of House of Lords reform.