Export of Live Horses for Slaughter (Hansard, 4 May 2004)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty)
My Lords, following the failure to agree new rules for live animal transport at the Agriculture Council on 26 April, the UK will continue to operate its existing legislation, including the minimum-value rules, although, as is well known by horse welfare organisations, those rules do not actually ban the export of horses for slaughter.

§ Lord Higgins
My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing us up to date on these matters. Of course, it is disappointing that it has not been possible so far to continue the minimum-value legislation, which is surely the best way of ensuring the prevention of the provision of live horses for slaughter. What objections are being made in the course of the negotiations with regard to the continuation of the minimum-value legislation? Does he agree that, although the improved conditions for the transportation of animals should be welcomed, horses are a special case and are unlikely to be looked after as well as they should be if their owners know that the horses will be slaughtered at the end of their journey?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the negotiations were on animal welfare and transportation legislation generally rather than on horses. The negotiations did not break down on the issue of horses, but related to hours of transportation, space, stalls and other issues on which there was no consensus in the Agriculture Council. The minimum-value regulations are British, not European, but they could have been modified by the provisions, which would have brought great animal welfare benefits.

§ Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, will the Minister take note of the plight of Welsh mountain ponies, which are quite used to the weather that is beating on the roof here at the moment? They are declining because they are of very little value off the hill. One of the problems is the cost of horse passports, which is often more than the value of the pony. The ponies are sold at markets. Unscrupulous dealers buy and export them, and they are slaughtered on the Continent. Many of us feel that that is totally unacceptable. Not only that, these ponies do not qualify for single farm 982 payments. Will his department do something about the cost of these passports or even abolish them, or ensure that these ponies qualify for single farm payments?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am glad that as I stood up the Welsh weather declined. The noble Lord has brought his weather with him. The passport system for Welsh mountain ponies is a matter for the devolved administration. Within England, we have made special provision with regard to passports for those responsible for Dartmoor and New Forest ponies. I suspect that the Welsh authorities will look at that. Again, the administration of single farm payments in Wales is not a matter for me.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is not much point in us being goody-goodies when the rest of Europe is exporting its horses under extremely cruel conditions, together with an export market of horses for the meat trade in South America? Does he agree that we need a uniform effort on behalf of all the nations involved in this disgusting trade to get together and have one law for everybody?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, certainly, as far as Europe is concerned, that was our intention and that of the Commission when we proposed these regulations. It is greatly to our regret that the Agriculture Council failed to agree the legislation, which would have improved the welfare conditions of horses and other animals throughout Europe.

§ Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, rightly referred to "this disgusting trade". Does the Minister agree that it is equally disgusting whether it involves the export o Clive horses or any other mature animal? The objection is to the cruelty inflicted on animals of any kind if they are transported in this way.

§ Lord Whitty
Yes, my Lords. There are two different aspects to consider. The first is welfare at the point of slaughter. When animals, including horses, are slaughtered within the UK, we try to enforce the very best welfare standards, which is not always the case if they are exported. There is also the manner of transportation, on which we were trying to tighten legislation for all animals in the discussions that failed last week.

§ Baroness Byford
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that the derogation has been allowed to continue. Will he tell the House exactly where the negotiations broke down? In the light of the breakdown, will more stringent rules on policing the transport of animals within the European Union be put into place?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, because of the Agriculture Council's failure to agree the provisions, neither the tighter rules nor their enforcement will be put into place. The issues on which there was disagreement included maximum transportation hours, the space 983 assigned to animals, and, of particular relevance to horses, the detailed regulations on stalls. So a number of items could not be accepted by some member states and the negotiations broke down.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, will the noble Lord tell us which member states those were?

§ Lord Whitty
Broadly speaking, my Lords, the further south you go, the more likely they are to object. Of course, that will be complicated after last weekend—probably, the further east you go, the more likely they are to object as well.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, does the Minister agree that even the heavens are crying because of the fate of the poor horses?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, previously I blamed the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for bringing his weather with him, but maybe it was an intervention by the Almighty. Certainly, a lot of cruelty is involved in the horse trade across Europe. However, that applies also to other animals. It has to be recognised that the UK does permit the slaughter of horses for human consumption and there is an industry here. The important point is that the welfare provisions are of the best at the point of slaughter and the point of transportation.