"Flying Scotsman" (Hansard, 22 March 2004)

§ Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an unpaid interest as a member of the Railway Heritage Committee.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what assistance they are giving to the National Railway Museum in its bid to acquire LNER Gresley A3 Pacific "Flying Scotsman" for the national collection.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey)
My Lords, I start by wishing my noble friend a very happy birthday.
The Government have not been asked for assistance by the National Railway Museum with its hid to acquire the "Flying Scotsman" for the national collection. However, I understand that the museum has applied for a grant to the National Heritage Memorial Fund.

§ Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer and, indeed, for his kind wishes. He will know that the "Flying Scotsman" is viewed by the British public as an icon, a national treasure and an extraordinary feat of British engineering. It is almost unthinkable that it could be sold abroad or, worse still, finish up on the forecourt of a pub car park.
Is my noble friend aware of how well the NRM appeal is going? So far it has received over 2,000 contributions in little more than two weeks ranging from £5 to £50,000. I ask the Minister to do two things. First, can he give an undertaking that the DCMS will defer an export licence for an overseas overbidder, if that is the outcome of the tender process, to give the NRM more time to see whether it can match the bid? 458 Secondly, the Minister referred to the National Heritage Memorial Fund, which I understand meets tomorrow to discuss the bid. Will he give every encouragement for support by the fund to be as generous as possible?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Faulkner is right about the support for the campaign to keep the "Flying Scotsman" here. I understand that in that regard the National Railway Museum receives more than 100 letters every day. As to whether we support the grant, the arm's length principle requires that awards by the National Heritage Memorial Fund are made independently of government by the trustees of the fund, who will make their decision after receiving expert advice.
As regards an export licence application, my noble friend made a good case for saying that this is a suitable subject for meeting the Waverley criteria. It has a close connection with our history and national life. I am sure that as a railway enthusiast he would say that it is of outstanding aesthetic significance, and it is of outstanding significance for the study of art, learning and history. However, that does not mean that I can anticipate what decision will be taken about an export licence application if and when it is made.

§ Baroness Buscombe
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it is imperative that the "Flying Scotsman" remains in the United Kingdom, the country where it was built and where it remains a powerful symbol of our heritage?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, as always, the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, makes a very good case.

§ Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, as someone who was born and brought up by the Great Western Railway, I acknowledge that this locomotive has some value. However, will the Minister acknowledge the great value that the railway heritage industry brings to this country in terms of education and the training of craftsman, and to the tourism industry? Although there are "anoraks" connected with the industry, there is a very serious purpose behind the Question.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, as befits someone brought up by the Great Western Railway, the question of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is to a wider gauge—perhaps the Brunel gauge—than the Question originally asked. However, I am sure that there can be no objection to the general statement that he made.

§ Lord Monro of Langholm
My Lords, I appreciate the Minister's response. However, will he bear in mind the relevance to Scotland, where there is a particular enthusiasm for the engine, especially for pulling tourist trains? Perhaps he will drop a hint to the Scottish Executive that it might put some money into this.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I would not dare. However, on the other hand, the National 459 Railway Museum has stated that if it does succeed in acquiring it, the engine will not be kept just at York but will be shown at Shildon in County Durham and will be available for other sites in the country. No doubt that would include Scotland.

Lord Berkeley
My Lords, my noble friend gave the House great confidence when he said that this locomotive would need a licence for export. Is that the same kind of licence that would be required for a Constable painting or any other work of art? Can he confirm that the criteria used to evaluate what should be allowed to be exported and what should stay are the same, and will be the same for any other works of art one might mention?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, in this case the criteria would be that it is more than 50 years old—the "Flying Scotsman" was built in 1923; that it is worth more than £65,000—I think it would meet that criterion; and that it has not been previously exported or imported. The "Flying Scotsman" has been around Canada and the United States but I understand that it has always been under UK ownership. Therefore, my understanding is that it would qualify.