HL Deb 02 March 2004 vol 658 cc541-3
Lord Astor of Hever

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether, following the early withdrawal from service of HMS "Ark Royal", they are confident that there will be no gap in aircraft carrier capability should a future carrier be delayed into service.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach)

My Lords, before I answer the Question, I hope that the House will forgive me if I mention briefly Lord Vivian who, in the old days, would be asking the Question. He was my Front-Bench Opposition counterpart for all of the time that I have been in this job. He performed his job in a fair, gentlemanly and really gallant way. The noble Lord would never take any unfair criticism of the Armed Forces, in which he served with such distinction. The House will very much miss him.

The decommissioning date for HMS "Ark Royal" has not been brought forward. On current plans it remains towards the end of 2013. The Government's intention is that there will be no gap in our aircraft carrier capability and that the future aircraft carriers will replace the Invincible Class ships, as expected, in a phased replacement programme. The target in-service date for the first future aircraft carrier remains 2012.

Lord Astor of Hever

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for those gracious and generous word about my noble kinsman Lord Vivian. He worked tirelessly and effectively to represent the best interests of the Armed Forces. As the Minister said, the House will miss him.

Regarding the Question, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Any gap would have serious consequences for the retention of naval and aviation skills, manpower and recruiting—and complete subordination to allied forces in operations. Can the Minister assure us that HMS "Ark Royal" and HMS "Illustrious" would be kept on in the event of delays?

Lord Bach

My Lords, I give an assurance that we will never allow the position to develop whereby we do not have the aircraft carrier protection and force that we require. So I can give the noble Lord that assurance.

Lord Boyce

My Lords, would the Minister add to his answer by giving us an assurance that there will be a carrier air group to go on board the carriers—the ships? In other words will the Sea Harrier be able to run on, or will the new aircraft be available to ensure that there will not only be no gap in hulls but also no gap in carrier air group?

Lord Bach

My Lords, I can also give the noble and gallant Lord that assurance. When the new aircraft carriers come on stream, it is essential that there is air group available because it is a crucial part of the force that it represents.

Lord Tomlinson

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that, although his answer is welcome, if the public expenditure policies of the Conservative Party were put into effect it would imply a public expenditure cut in the defence budget of about £1.5 billion? If it proposes to defend the defence budget, that would mean even greater public expenditure cuts elsewhere, unless the right honourable Member for Folkestone changes his mind on public expenditure policy as rapidly as he changes his mind on participation in the Butler committee.

Lord Bach

My Lords, having listened for a number of years to Opposition spokesmen who always genuinely ask for more resources for defence, it was a shock to the system to hear the right honourable Oliver Letwin announce his spending plans. I confirm that there would be a reduction in defence spending by having a standstill. I look forward to hearing in due course, perhaps later than sooner, where the Conservatives' defence cuts will be.

Lord Redesdale

My Lords, I wish to associate noble Lords on these Benches with the comments made about Lord Vivian. He cared deeply about defence and the Ministry of Defence.

I know that an overrun is unlikely in our wonderful age of procurement, as we have not seen overruns in other fields such as aircraft or radios. However, if there was an overrun in the carrier programme, would that mean that we would have to rely on the American or French carrier fleet to plug the gap in our defence capability?

Lord Bach

My Lords, it would not mean that at all. We have successful aircraft carriers and we will continue to have them. I look forward to hearing where the Liberal Democrat cuts in defence will come. Will they involve an aircraft carrier or two?

Lord King of Bridgwater

My Lords, following the answer given to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, will the Minister confirm who will provide air cover on the carriers in advance of the time that the new carriers become available? There has been a suggestion that if the Sea Harriers are withdrawn it will be provided by frigates. However, there is now a suggestion that the frigate fleet may be reduced significantly. Will the noble Lord clarify the point he made about air cover for the carriers?

Lord Bach

My Lords, the noble Lord need not concern himself too much on that. We will always make certain that our carrier fleet is protected. While the existing carriers are still in operation, the GR7s and GR9s will take on the role that the FA2s maintained so well for so long.