Child Protection Strategy (Hansard, 1 March 2004)

§ Baroness Walmsley
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they plan to inform their child protection strategy by the experience of the European countries which afford children protection from assault in the home equal to that enjoyed by adults.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, the Government have no plans at present to remove the reasonable chastisement defence, as we believe that the law as it stands on physical punishment of children reflects the right balance between protecting children and allowing parents to make their own choices about discipline in the home. The Government are aware of the experience of other European countries, and we take this into account in the ongoing monitoring of our current policy.

§ Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. Will she accept that in those countries that have given children equal protection, along with a lot of public education and help for parents, the benefits have been enormous, including a reduction in the number of prosecutions of parents and a reduction in the number of compulsory interventions from social services? Public opinion is now overwhelmingly in favour of the policy. In the 10th report of the Joint Committee on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, it was proposed that the UK Government review the experiences of those countries that have given equal protection to children. Do the Government intend to act on that recommendation?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, when one looks across at our European colleagues it is interesting, as the noble Baroness rightly said, to look at the implications of the changes they have made and what we can see happening in issues around children—it is an important part of the work that we do. In response to her final question about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, we keep a watchful eye and we are consistently in conversation with our colleagues in different European countries about their experiences. It is hard to look for causal relationships in these areas, as one would expect. None the less, it is interesting. As the noble Baroness said, public opinion in different countries has led to different initiatives being taken. In this country, there is a reasonably strong view that the position of the Government is correct.

§ Lord Laming
My Lords, would the Minister do everything that she can to remind the front-line services that the Children Act 1989 places a duty on services to put the well-being of children in a paramount position? That means listening to the child rather than to the wishes of the adults in the child's life.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I could not agree more strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Laming. It is absolutely critical that we recognise that nothing that I have said suggests in any way that we should be anything other than ever-watchful for abuse of children under all circumstances.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, could the Minister please try to use her influence to persuade the Government to make use of the Children Bill to bring forward legislation that totally complies with the European Court of Human Rights and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which have both criticised the Government's attitude about hitting children? Surely she could do something to get us in line with the rest of Europe.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I look forward to the introduction of the Bill. I surmise that it will not be me who brings forward this issue on our deliberations, but it will arise in the course of our debate. I look forward to those debates.

§ Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, could the Minister tell the House how out of line we are with the rest of Europe? Apart from the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, which European states that belong to the convention system give this lesser protection to children in the home?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I will answer the noble Lord's question the other way around, because I am more clear about those countries that have decided to remove this. In the past 25 years, Austria, Croatia, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Latvia, Germany, Cyprus, Iceland, Denmark and Israel have banned the use of corporal punishment on children. I gather that Belgium added a new clause to the constitution confirming children's rights to moral, physical, psychological and sexual integrity. The latest information that I have concerns the last meeting, at which the UK Government were present in Strasbourg, and where there was a great deal of debate.
Again, I bring your Lordships' attention to the fact that we are not discussing this Government's belief that we should do anything other than protect children from abuse. Talking about what can happen to a child in a loving relationship and discipline in the home is different from discussing what is abuse of children.

§ The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, can the Minister say how the Government are promoting positive parenting and helping parents under stress set proper boundaries for their children? How are they are encouraging health visitors to get messages across? How are the Government involved in the Sure Start project?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I am delighted to raise the issues that the noble Earl has mentioned. It is a critical part of the Sure Start programme to enable parents to get the support and advice that they need on issues of discipline, listening to their child and understanding children's behaviour. That forms part of it. I would be the first to say that we need to do more, but it is an integral part of what we want to achieve.

§ Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, if the Minister is in favour of listening to children, is she aware that the overwhelming majority of children are in favour of removing the defence of reasonable chastisement?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, as a mother, I was thinking of what my children would say on this subject. The noble Baroness made an important point about the need for government, and all of us, to listen to what children are saying. I go back to the point that I made earlier. I am not talking about children who are in any way abused. I am talking about recognising that in the home, in a loving family, there are different modes of discipline. We should be cautious and careful about the way in which we go forward on this issue.