HL Deb 29 June 2004 vol 663 cc133-6

3.12 p.m.

Baroness Hanham

asked Her Majesty's Government:

When the Bill on the powers and responsibilities of the regional assemblies will be introduced.

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, we will introduce a Bill to establish elected regional assemblies when one or more regions has voted in favour of establishing an assembly in a referendum. Our intention is that there should be referendums in the three northern regions this autumn. We will publish a draft Bill in July when Parliament has approved the date of the referendums.

Baroness Hanham:

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. In view of that response and as it is expected that the referendums will take place in the autumn, does the Minister not accept that to publish the powers and responsibilities of the regional assemblies some time in July, which will be probably less than a week or two before the Summer Recess, and with Parliament sitting for only two weeks in September, means that there will be very little time for this House to consider those powers and responsibilities? Can he give an assurance that opportunities will be presented to the House to discuss the powers and responsibilities in the draft Bill in good time before the start of a referendum campaign?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I understand the point made by the noble Baroness. I am sure that there will be plenty of time for debate following the referendums. As regards time for debate before the referendums, clearly that is a matter which should be properly discussed through the usual channels. No doubt there will be sympathy for that discussion.

Lord Renton:

My Lords, how many millions of pounds will these regional assemblies cost our people, and are our people not already well represented in the House of Commons, county councils, district councils and in other ways?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. In the end it will be for the people to decide. That is the purpose of the Government setting out a programme which enables people to vote in the regions on whether they wish to have a regional assembly. The Government take the view that regional government is of benefit, and no doubt many people agree with that.

Lord Alton of Liverpool:

My Lords, will the Minister return to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham; that is, that there should be proper parliamentary scrutiny of the Bill and proper debate in both Houses before these questions are put to a referendum? There is great anxiety in the north-west of England about the nature of the powers that will be given to the regional assemblies. Does the Minister not agree that those issues should be explored in this place and another place before they are put to the people?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, in the six and a half years that I have been in your Lordships' House I have never noticed its failure to take these matters seriously and to scrutinise in great detail Bills that come before it. I am sure that there will be ample opportunity for proper scrutiny of the powers and functions of the regional assemblies. I understand that the Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister has announced its intention to hold an inquiry into the Bill and will examine how it may work. I am sure that that and other opportunities within the parliamentary timetable will exist for adequate scrutiny.

Lord Newby:

My Lords, there are those of us who, like the Government, are keen to see the referendums reach a successful conclusion but our campaigns are being hobbled at the moment. We do not know what proposition we shall advocate to the electorate in the regions because we do not have a draft Bill. Does the Minister accept that to say that the question of whether there is adequate debate is up to the usual channels strikes many of us as completely unacceptable? Until we see a draft Bill we cannot have any kind of debate, far less any assurance, on the basis on which these referendums will be fought.

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I do not hear people say that the usual channels do not work. Obviously there will have to be discussion there so that there can be debate before the referendums take place. I do not agree with the noble Lord's assessment that there is a hobbling of the opportunity for debate generally. In the White Paper, Your Region, Your Choice, the Government made clear the way in which they wish to address these matters. I am sure that there will be ample opportunities for thorough debate on what I think we all agree are important issues.

Lord Elton:

My Lords, does the Minister recall the question asked by my noble friend Lord Renton; namely, what will these assemblies cost the people who are represented by them? What calculations have the Government made of that?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I do not have costings that I can provide today to your Lordships' House. I am happy to go away and see what figures exist. We have made plain our intention in this policy area. We spelt it out very clearly in the White Paper. In the end it is for the people to make the choice, and that is as it should be.

Lord Shutt of Greetland:

My Lords, what are the Government doing to excite the people that there will be something really worth while in these regional assemblies?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I rather thought that the noble Lord was quite excited by them. Perhaps he can help us with this. We have been undertaking an information campaign over the past year or so, and I understand that there has been a very interested response. People are participating in public meetings and gatherings to discuss what might happen as a result of successful referendums. I am sure that any words the noble Lord can say to assist in that process will be gratefully received.

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe:

My Lords, if there is concern about the time available to address this legislation, will my noble friend convey to the usual channels that this House would be willing to meet exceptionally in the mornings to do that?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I think that the usual channels have probably heard those words already.

Lord Renton of Mount Harry:

My Lords, what will be the difference in powers between those regional assemblies that are elected and those that are not elected, such as in the south-east of England where I assume they will continue to exist? What powers will the non-elected regional assemblies continue to have?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, the non-elected regional assemblies will no doubt continue as they are. The elected regional assemblies will have a wide range of involvement in issues such as sustainable development, economic development, housing strategy, jobs, skills, and planning. We have made clear our proposition on this and it is for the people to make a judgment.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville:

My Lords, does the Minister agree with his noble friend Lord Rooker that the existence of regional assemblies that are not sustained by legislation and the ones that may be if the referendum is successful is an Orwellian state of affairs?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, the noble Lord puts me in a difficult position. I think that I shall have to settle for agreeing with my noble friend Lord Rooker.

Baroness Hanham:

My Lords, in the light of these exchanges, can the Minister confirm that he has no idea when the Bill will be published? Can he also confirm that it is not the usual channels which will decide when the Bill is published? It is the usual channels which, presumably, will be given an indication as to when the matter is to be debated. Can he further confirm that if there are to be regional referendums in the autumn there is now insufficient time for this House and the other place to consider in the normal processes of Parliament the Bill that is to be introduced?

Lord Bassam of Brighton:

My Lords, I simply do not agree with the noble Baroness. I made it plain that we intend to publish a draft Bill this July. It is for discussion whether there should be debate around the draft Bill in your Lordships' House. I hope that there is, but that is something for the usual channels to sort out. Following publication of the draft Bill there will be ample opportunity for scrutiny.