HL Deb 24 June 2004 vol 662 cc1347-50

11.14 a.m.

Lord Hurd of Westwell asked Her Majesty's Government:

What arrangements they have made for British representation on the National Security Council in Iraq as provided for in the letters annexed to the United Nations Security Council resolution of 8 June.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)

My Lords, before I answer the Question, I express sympathy and condolence for those who lost loved ones or who were injured in the attacks in Baquba, Ramadi and Mosul this morning.

In his letter of 5 June to the president of the United Nations Security Council, the Iraqi Prime Minister designate, Dr Allawi, outlined how a consultation with the multinational force will work after 30 June. One means will be through the Ministerial Committee for National Security—the MCNS—composed of key Iraqi Ministers, which will set the broad framework for Iraqi security policy. The MNF commander and his deputy will be invited as required by the Iraqi Prime Minister. Currently, a British lieutenant-general, John McColl, is the deputy MNF commander in Iraq.

Lord Hurd of Westwell

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. I am sure the whole House will join her in the sympathy she has expressed for the victims of the latest upsurge of violence in Iraq.

A new chapter starts next week. As I understand it—and I think the noble Baroness has just confirmed it—the Security Council is the body in Baghdad which will tackle major military questions. The answer to these questions is crucial for British troops, whether or not they are actively involved, as we have seen in the handling of Fallujah and Najaf. Therefore, is it not reasonable to hope that, as the letter she quoted allows, Britain should have, in this new chapter, in one way or another, an influence on these matters which is in proportion to the effort we are making?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

My Lords, of course I agree that a new chapter starts on 30 June. It is quite right that, given the contribution we have made, we should have the consultation outlined in Dr Allawi's letter to the United Nations Security Council president and in the reciprocal letter written on behalf of the MNF by Colin Powell.

The noble Lord is quite right—the MCNS will be the main forum for deciding defence policy. As well as the Prime Minister, the body will include the Deputy Prime Minister, the Ministers for defence, the interior, justice, foreign affairs and finance. The MNF commander, his deputy and others are expected to be invited to serve on it. The noble Lord will also wish to know that there will be consultation at all levels in Iraq, from the region to the province.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, the Minister has given us some information about the composition of the MCNS, particularly the identity of the Ministers who will be serving as members. She also said that the multinational force commander and his deputy would serve on it. Will those individuals be there in a purely advisory capacity? If there is a difference of opinion on matters of security between the members of the committee who are appointed by the Prime Minister and those appointed by the MNF, how are those matters to be resolved, particularly with regard to the sensitive defensive operations referred to in the resolution?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

My Lords, let us be clear about this. The letters that were exchanged were put out by the Security Council's annexes to UNSCR 1546. They make it clear that the Iraqi Government are responsible for setting the broad framework of Iraqi security policy and that they will consult with the MNF on security policy and sensitive operational issues. The commanders will under no circumstances have direct control of the multinational forces. The whole point is that there should be proper consultation throughout the system and that there should be flexibility in that system—the very flexibility that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, thought was so sensible when we last discussed this on 7 June.

Lord Campbell-Savours

My Lords, is not the problem with this letter the fact that it excludes any consideration whatever by the people who will be on the new authority at the end of this month? Would it not have been far better if that letter had been drawn up after the authority had been created?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

No, my Lords, I do not think that it would have been. I think that it is far better to have clarity before the handover of power. Your Lordships have, quite rightly and properly, been asking about the relationship between the sovereign government of Iraq and the multinational forces. The exchange of letters which has been endorsed by the Security Council gives us exactly that framework within which to work.

I also draw to your Lordships' attention the very powerful statement on Iraqi defence which was issued on 20 June by Dr Allawi, in which he goes into more detail about how security arrangements will work. I shall ensure that a copy of the statement goes into the Library of your Lordships' House.

Lord Howell of Guildford

My Lords, does the Minister accept that some of use are getting a little uneasy about the way in which American reported pronouncements are already placing restrictions on the new Iraqi Government designate in a way that may undermine the important authority of Mr Allawi and his colleagues? How does she feel about the announcement that the immunity question will be decided by the Americans, that the public safety aspirations of Mr Allawi have been denied him, and that all ports and airports—there may be a reason for this—are to be under Allied/coalition or MNF control rather than Iraqi control? Does she not agree that it is important to get on quickly with having a British voice at the centre of these evolving security arrangements so that we can get some balance and not see the new Iraqi Government weakened before they have even started?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

My Lords, I counsel the noble Lord against reacting to every single reported statement of an American point of view. We are in daily contact with the Americans about all these issues and have a strong relationship with the State Department. However, your Lordships will be aware that there are many arms to the American administration. Perhaps the noble Lord is reflecting some of the other points of view emerging in the United States. I assure him that the British Government have a clear voice on these issues.

We discussed the question of immunity and the continuation of or adjustments to CPA Order 17 only yesterday. I was able to tell your Lordships that so far the Iraqis have not raised any fundamental problems over the immunities question. I suggest that when we can see the full picture of everything that has been agreed on 30 June we will be able to take up any points of detail on the basis of facts rather than speculation.

Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde

My Lords, does the Minister agree that Lieutenant-General McColl, although a soldier, is certainly well placed and experienced to carry out this function, having done such a marvellous job in Afghanistan in bringing together the security services and the civilian population? Does she agree that the appointment is a particularly good one?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

Yes my Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lady Dean emphatically. Lieutenant-General McColl took up his post in April this year. I hope that he will complete his tour of duty, which will end towards the end of this year. As my noble friend said, he is very experienced and is an exemplar of the way in which the British Army have conducted themselves in Iraq. That is why they have won so many friends among the population of Iraq.

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