National Offender Management Service (Hansard, 16 June 2004)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, some of the organisational reform involved in establishing the national offender management service, along with the sentencing proposals in the Carter report, will require legislation. Subject to other priorities in the Government's legislative programme, we are planning to introduce a Bill as soon as possible.

Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply. Does she agree that the independent Prisons and Probation Ombudsman has been doing an extremely good job providing very wise advice and judgments? Does she also share the view that the repeated promise to put the ombudsman on a statutory footing would strengthen his role considerably and ought to be brought forward in legislation very soon without necessarily awaiting the full legislation for the Carter report?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that the ombudsman is discharging his duties in an exemplary way, but whether it would be right to include that in statutory form needs further consideration.

§ Lord Ackner
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that the package of proposals justifies doing 744 away with the Prison Service and Probation Service, as suggested on page 43 of the report? Further, does she recognise that the judicial roles identified on page 42 cannot really be described as in any way new?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we are not doing away with the Prison Service and the Probation Service; rather, we are forming them into a new entity which we hope will enable them to work even more effectively than hitherto, particularly bearing in mind the new structural change brought about by the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The judicial role will remain that which it has always been and one which we are proud that this country has had the benefit of for a long time.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, is the Minister aware that a major restructure of the Probation Service took place in 2001, only three years ago? Serious concerns were expressed in your Lordships' House when this matter was considered, on the basis that the Home Office seems to have an insatiable appetite for controlling everything centrally. Does the Minister consider that the National Association of Probation Officers and the probation service boards have been given adequate time for consultation? According to their representations, they are very unhappy. Will she also take into account not only the scrutiny of Parliament, but the opinions of these organisations when bringing proposals before this House?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that an appropriate opportunity will be provided for consultation. Indeed, a wide range of consultation has already been undertaken. Noble Lords know that we have held two formal public consultations on the Carter reforms. The government document, Reducing Crime, Changing Lives invited responses on a number of critical issues, and we have now published a second consultation seeking specific comments on whether the model of the new national offender management service will provide a rational and cost-effective means of delivering the NOMS reforms, whether the regional offender management boards should be chaired and so on. That is a real opportunity for consultation.
I do not agree with the noble Lord that we have an insatiable appetite for centralisation. In fact, the result of NOMS will be a higher level of local accountability, while the regional managers will have a real opportunity to make a difference.

Lord Acton
My Lords, will the proposed legislation affect the position of the Chief Inspector of Prisons and her inspectors?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, it will have no effect on their independence or their ability to advise the Government on what they deem appropriate better to manage the system.

§ Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that there is a great deal of 745 disquiet among those in the probation service that this amalgamation will erode the skills they have developed in working in the community with offenders? Can she give an assurance that those skills will be preserved in the new structure?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I have heard and understand that anxiety, but it is my pleasure to say that we believe it to be totally unfounded. We will have to rely even more keenly on the skills and aptitudes of probation officers. We have increased their number by 5,000 and we intend to have a further 2,500 in the next two years. We need these officers as never before.

§ Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, if the transition to NOMS is handled well, it could mark a step forward for justice. However, the problem is that the Government are handling it so badly that they have created uncertainty and lack of trust in what may happen. Can the Minister explain why, in advance of any parliamentary scrutiny or legislation, appointments are already going ahead and piloting of the regional system is being undertaken in the north-west?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that the creation of this service could be a very good development. However, I do not accept that it is being dealt with badly by the Government. We have taken extensive opportunities to consult. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that we have had meetings with the relevant trade unions, that 10 road shows attended by Martin Neary have been held in the English regions and Wales for 3,000 prison and probation staff, along with numerous sentencers. So I do not accept that this process has not been handled appropriately. We are already seeing the benefits of the changes, as well as a welcome change of view and acceptance that this will inure to the benefit of the system and of justice.

§ Lord Corbett of Castle Vale
My Lords, can my noble friend explain in detail the attitude of the trade unions representing staff working in the two services, and what was the Government's response?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, anxieties have been expressed about precisely what these changes will mean and what kind of structure is to be put in place. Those are proper concerns which the Government are seeking to address. The precise form of any changes has not yet been settled and we will continue to consult all the appropriate stakeholders to make sure that we get this right.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, the noble Baroness has just mentioned consultation. What consultation has taken place with the chaplaincy services and how, in the changes they are implementing, the Government can avoid the danger that unacceptable variations will occur in the level and scope of spiritual care of prisoners between one region and another?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, first, the consultation process has been open to all. I cannot tell 746 the noble Lord today precisely how many chaplains have participated, but I can certainly confirm that on my visits, chaplaincy issues have been raised. These matters will be taken into account. I shall be more than happy to write to the noble Lord about specific consultation in this area.