Parliament Square: Protests (Hansard, 15 June 2004)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, it may be open to the local authority to take action under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which makes it an offence for anyone who does not have a waste management licence to deposit waste on land. We shall shortly be 623 consulting on developing police powers and ensuring that police are empowered to act effectively and proportionately in this area.

§ Viscount Tenby
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer, although I hope that she does not mind me saying that it is unsatisfactory in certain respects. Does the noble Baroness agree that the right to demonstrate is fundamental in a mature democracy? If one of the prime sites for this purpose—in this case, the south side of Parliament Square—is occupied by one group and one individual for very many months, what chance do other legitimate groups have to make their protests known as well? Will the Government get their act together and get all the interested parties together to solve this mess as a matter of urgency?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree that in a mature democracy there must be a proper right to demonstrate. Noble Lords will know that the protest that has been taking place across from the House has proved rather difficult, not least because they have all—if I can use the noble Viscount's words back to him—got their act together and are working in concert. Noble Lords will know that Westminster Council sought an injunction in 2002. A decision was made in that regard that limited the effect. The Metropolitan Police has kept the position under review. There is a loophole, and we will look to see how it can be filled. The Government's act is intact.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, it would be helpful if the noble Baroness would be good enough to make clear what the Government's attitude is to untidiness and mess in the wrong places. Are we to believe that the Government accept a decent part of the natural regime over which they preside?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, the noble Lord knows well that the Government do not like mess. That is why we do not make it.

§ Baroness Billingham
My Lords, will the Government be supporting the initiative of the London Borough of Camden on fly posting, for example, which seems to be a significant way forward in reducing litter on our streets?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, Camden has taken advantage of the legislation that has been made available. It is a good example of what we can do when we work properly and with initiative.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, all charity ties apart, I find the whole thing disgusting and shameful. Why cannot it be moved to Speaker's Corner at Marble Arch, which is the right place for such things?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I understand the sentiments of the noble Baroness, and a number of laws have been put into place to address 624 this issue. The noble Baroness will also know that those who wish to subvert the law are very skilful, and we must keep on trying to be one step ahead of them.

§ Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the need for more police powers. If two noble Lords are alarmed, harassed or distressed, why does she not use the powers under last year's Antisocial Behaviour Act to get the police to move these people on, thereby demonstrating the Government's commitment to free speech and freedom of assembly?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, it is not two Members of the House of Lords who need to act in concert but two individuals. One of the issues is that this concerns one individual, not two.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, is that the loophole to which my noble friend referred?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, there is a difficulty because in the case that was brought against this individual in 2002, the judge declined to grant an injunction. The judge said that the obstruction for which the individual was responsible was not unreasonable and that the council had to take that into consideration before taking action against him. Noble Lords will know that we introduced stringent measures in the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, many of which were resisted by the Benches opposite. We hope that they will be successful in dealing with such issues when two or more people behave in the way that we now wish to change.

§ Viscount Bridgeman
My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that until new legislation is introduced the Government will continue with a sessional order, which will at least serve as an annual reminder that new legislation has not yet come into force?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, sessional orders will, of course, continue. I did not promise legislation. I said very clearly that we have to look at police powers to see whether they are currently sufficient and, if not, to consider what we need to do to augment them. We shall certainly do that.

§ Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, speaking in a purely personal capacity, do the Government recognise that a balancing factor is involved in these issues? Many visitors to this country are extremely impressed to see that people can express a profoundly unpopular position as close to Parliament as they do.

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we have taken that matter firmly into account. The noble Baroness is right: any new legislation would need to take into account the rights to freedom of expression and assembly under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights. However, I am sure that the noble Baroness will acknowledge that there is a question of balance and proportionality. That is what we are trying to achieve.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, equally as bad as the litter in Parliament Square is the noise pollution from the 625 use of loud-hailers. It is clear from a Written Answer that was sent to me that local authorities have the power to ban the use of loud-hailers. Why has this not been done?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, local authorities are given such powers in order that they may exercise their discretion and act upon them. We still have local government—we are proud to have local government—and we hope that local government will discharge its duty and not wait for central government to do so for it.

§ Earl Attlee
My Lords, for how many years have the Government failed to deal with this problem?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we have not failed to deal with it; we have dealt with it robustly, as have the authorities which are seized of the issue. What has happened in relation to the placards opposite is that individuals have taken advantage of the small chinks that currently exist and exploited them. We have been criticised in the past for being too active in this area.

§ Lord Swinfen
My Lords, is not the individual concerned obstructing the public highway?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, he is not. A route has been woven around each piece of legislation. I understand that an individual has been arrested on another matter but I cannot talk about that because it is sub judice. However, I can tell the House that a clear look is being taken at all the legislation to ensure that we have as much as we can conceivably create to make the net as tight as it should be.