Wind Power (Hansard, 6 July 2004)

§ Lord Willoughby de Broke
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether wind power requires a conventional power back-up.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of Turville)
My Lords, all forms of generation require some degree of back-up to cater for unexpected interruptions. The fact that wind power is intermittent has implications for the level of back-up required, but work undertaken by the National Grid Company following the energy White Paper indicates that the electricity system could manage with the increasing reliance on wind generation implied by our renewable targets and aspirations. The back-up could be provided either by conventional or non-intermittent sources of renewable energy such as hydro or biomass.

§ Lord Willoughby de Broke
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Are the costs of that full-time fossil fuel back-up currently factored into the costs of wind farms? Does he agree that having full-time fossil fuel back-up generation in place for wind farms means that no matter how many wind farms we build, we will still not attain our emissions target?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
Yes, my Lords, that is factored into the cost. Where wind power provides up to 10 per cent of the renewable target, that back-up has little effect on the cost. If one reached the probably 659 extreme position of 20 per cent of the renewable target being met by wind, one would begin to need to factor in the cost of the back-up, but that would probably come to about 0.5p per kilowatt hour. I see no reason why that should prevent us meeting our emissions targets.

§ Lord Tanlaw
My Lords, will the Minister advise us once more about the situation in south-west Scotland? That is the best area for wind generation, yet the Ministry of Defence consistently opposes any form of wind farm being sited there. Therefore, how are the Government going to meet their target for renewable energy if the ministry continues to cause delay in planning applications for wind generators?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, the answer is exactly the same as it was on the previous occasion. The MoD and the Civil Aviation Authority, via the wind energy and civil and military aviation working groups, are working to resolve the planning issues to make certain that wind turbines are properly sited.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, in view of the relatively small contribution that wind power is making to electricity generation and to the back-up required, is it not time for the Government to reconsider extending the same kind of incentives to other ways in which emissions can be reduced, such as combined heat and power—the Minister will not be surprised to hear that from me—clean coal technology and the recovery of methane from coal mines?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
No, my Lords, if that were the right course of action, the Government would have taken it.

§ Lord Lang of Monkton
My Lords, is it the case that wind power is inefficient and unreliable, having only a 30 per cent load factor, and that it is also environmentally unattractive, intrusive, noisy, harmful to wildlife and ruinous of our countryside? Against that background, would it not be more sensible to place more reliance on the more efficient, reliable and durable source of nuclear power?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, I repeat what I said previously. It is quite extraordinary to refer to wind turbines as environmentally unattractive and promptly suggest that the environmental solution is to have nuclear power. Whatever one's view is about nuclear power, there are considerable and very real environmental issues involved. As far as the cost is concerned, the load factor is taken into account in the calculations, which still show that the market is making the right judgment, which is that, as of today, the cheapest source of renewable energy is almost certainly wind power.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of academic studies which tend to show that when fossil fuel power stations are ramped up—to use 660 the current expression—when the wind does not blow, that almost entirely negates the benefits of wind power when the wind blows? Does he agree with those studies or not?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, I am not aware of those studies. I would be very surprised if that is the case. As far as I am aware, it is quite clear that you can have back-up, particularly if it is gas-fired conventional generation, which very quickly can provide the necessary back-up. That in no way negates the benefits. I find it hard to see how it can, given that it is intermittent, negate the benefits of the renewable.

§ Lord Dixon-Smith
My Lords, have the Government made any calculation of the point at which the expansion of wind power will require the expansion of stand-by generating capacity to deal with the fluctuations which might arise from that wind power?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, it depends on making judgments about a whole series of issues, such as the geographical dispersal of wind farms, and so on. But as I indicated, up to about 10 per cent of energy from wind turbines has very little impact. If 20 per cent of energy comes from wind turbines, a significant amount of plant margin is needed. But, as I explained, it is only about 0.5p per kilowatt hour that increases the cost.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is there not a real danger to security of supply by relying on wind turbines as part of the spare capacity? Unless we are going to waste power station output by keeping them running— but not feeding to the grid because there are windmills—we are in fact saving nothing, but also putting security of supply at risk. Will the Minister not listen to the growing dissent about the construction of wind farms as being unacceptable environmentally and useless so far as productivity is concerned?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, I think the noble Lord is unaware that one can turn the back-up on and off as required.

§ Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, does the Minister agree that tidal power is constant and reliable? Is he confident that his department is doing all it can to bring tidal power forward?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, clearly tidal power is another very useful source of energy, but it remains very expensive. Research is under way on how to bring that into an area in which it will make economic sense.

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that his right honourable friend 661 the Prime Minister said this morning in a Select Committee that one of the reasons for not committing to nuclear at this stage was because it was more costly than other sources of energy?
Does the Minister therefore disagree with all the authoritative reports that say practically the opposite? They include, for example, the Royal Academy of Engineering, which mentioned that when you consider even the decommissioning costs of nuclear it is less expensive than wind power, because with wind power one has to pay not only for the installations and the subsidies but also for what the Minister referred to in response to the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke.

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, of course the Prime Minister was right. That is an article of faith for all junior Ministers. I shall explain why he is right. He is right because at the moment there are very few data which give the cost of nuclear power to date—there are practically no up-to-date— nuclear power stations being built in the West, although there have been some in South-East Asia. There are very few data about which one can confidently say that they give the current costs of nuclear power.

§ Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, have the Government taken any steps to arrest the anticipated reduction in electricity generation from nuclear and fossil fuel sources?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, that is what the whole renewal programme is about. It is to provide alternative sources to fill the requirements as we go forward.

§ The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, far be it from me from this Bench to add to the wind unnecessarily a wind that blows where it will, according to the Holy Scriptures. Does the Minister acknowledge that the sheer volume of questions on this and similar subjects which has arisen in this House over the past year indicates quite a widespread anxiety about the combination of reliance upon intermittent sources and increasing quantities of gas imported over very large distances? It indicates an underlying concern about security of energy supplies in the future.

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, that is entirely right. There clearly is anxiety in this House about this question of energy security. That is an important area for this country as we move into a world where we are an importer of energy. It is right that this House should consider this matter very seriously. Equally, it is for the Government to point out what action we are taking.