HL Deb 06 July 2004 vol 663 cc703-16

Section 55 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (c. 41) (late claim for asylum: refusal of support) shall cease to have effect."

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I speak to Amendment No. 8 which inserts a new clause. I introduced this amendment in Committee. I did not bring it back on Report in the hope that it would encourage the Home Office to look again at the unfair effects of Section 55 of the 2002 Act on genuine asylum seekers who become destitute when they are unable to make claims "as soon as reasonably practicable" or in any case within three days of arrival.

Many people, in and outside Parliament, now accept that this clause is a thorn inserted into asylum legislation without proper scrutiny, that it sits uneasily with the European convention, that it lacks credibility as a deterrent, and that it should be removed from the Bill as soon as possible.

The Court of Appeal judges in the case of Limbuela et al on 21 May—mentioned already by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—had these points in mind when they upheld a High Court decision in favour of three asylum seekers who had been denied support under Section 55. The majority opinion was that the Secretary of State could deny support only if he, has in place realistic arrangements for meeting his responsibilities under the Convention".

This decision has prompted a welcome, but only provisional, change of policy. That is now visible in the way that NASS interprets the human rights duty under Section 55(5). The latest guidance, which I have in my hand—a 39-page document—produced only on 25 June, states that NASS must provide support, unless it is positively satisfied that the individual does have some alternative source(s) of support available to him/her … Failure by NASS to provide support where no other source of support is available may lead to a breach of the applicant's rights under Article 3",, of the ECHR . That is a quote from paragraph 6.2 of the IND policy bulletin 75.

5.30 p.m.

Alternative support is not always there. Local communities, assisted by churches and voluntary agencies, do a remarkable service to the public in looking after destitute people, including asylum seekers. I have no doubt that the Home Office would like that to continue, especially when local authorities are cutting services. I hear that there are threats of those services being cut in cities such as Leicester.

Research by the Greater London Authority shows that despite the efforts of local communities, which we all applaud, 29 per cent of people denied support under Section 55 in London last November had to sleep rough. That was a rise of more than half on the previous recorded tally of rough sleepers in London. Furthermore, we know that something like half—a disproportionate number—of those rough sleepers are women. Incidentally, it was unfortunate that in Committee the Home Office brief said that the Greater London Authority's research was based on a very limited sample. In fact, its survey covered 1,999 people in total, of whom 14 per cent, or 283 people, were asylum seekers reporting that they had been denied support under Section 55.

Under the revised NASS rules, we can assume and hope that only a small number will now be left destitute. The Minister may very well say that we should stop worrying about them. That in itself suggests that the whole purpose of Section 55 has now been undermined and that the Government should recognise that by simply removing the clause. However, we shall have to wait to see what the Minister says now and what the effects of the new guidance will be between now and the Government's further appeal against the decision. It will not look good on the record if policy is shown to be inconsistent as well as discriminatory.

Finally, I remind the House of three further points, in the unfortunate absence of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, whom we all wish were here today. These are points that arose in Committee. First, I am grateful to the Home Office for confirming through a Written Answer to my Question HL 2729 that a claim made after three days is no less genuine than one made on arrival. I do not personally like to use the word "late" because it carries a stigma. That Answer shows to me how arbitrary Section 55 is, although the provision for three days is often described as a concession.

Secondly, I am reassured by another government Answer to my Question HL 2728, showing that it is impossible to prove statistically that Section 55 of itself has caused a reduction in applications for asylum. That surely weakens the case for Section 55 as an effective deterrent.

Thirdly, Section 55 escaped parliamentary scrutiny from the outset. I am sure that the Minister knows that it was never even debated in another place, despite the efforts of his honourable friend Mr Neil Gerrard. The section is still capable of wide interpretation by the Government, even if we leave it alone, through the various non-statutory methods which are open to it. That is why so many people are opposed to the section, are concerned about its use in future and would like it to be repealed. I beg to move.

Lord McNally

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the noble Earl, and to thank him for his good wishes to my noble friend Lord Russell, which we will pass on.

In the end, the noble Earl's analysis is right. As it now applies, the measure is neither a deterrent to asylum application or a saving of public money. What is left is something that the Minister referred to earlier. It is part of the package of gesture politics that the Government have assembled, although whether it is intended to deter asylum seekers or to appease the Daily Mail, no one is ever quite sure. Whatever it is intended to do, the clause would contain a particularly mean-minded piece of legislation if we were to let it go through. We support the amendment.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly, as I have spoken on this matter before and I am sure that noble Lords will remember each and every wonderful syllable that I uttered. It is absolutely right that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, should introduce this amendment today, because of the timing and the Court of Appeal case. It is right to give the Government the opportunity to make further comment on the opposition to the clause. I appreciate that the Minister may have some difficulties of a procedural nature if the matter is going to appeal, so I do not know how much he will be able to assist us today. However, this was the right parliamentary opportunity for the noble Earl to seize.

I have told the noble Earl in the past week that I am not able to support his amendment as such. We on these Benches have in the past made it clear that we believe that the policy objective should be achieved, provided that that happens within the legal system. We are concerned to see what has happened in the Court of Appeal. Obviously, we now look forward to seeing a resolution of that question, and would naturally accept whatever the Higher Appellate jurisdiction decides.

Baroness Park of Monmouth

My Lords, I rise to support very strongly the noble Earl's remarks.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, I support my noble friend's amendment. Of course we all understand that the Government want people to apply for refugee status when they arrive or, if they cannot do that, within three days. But surely the Government could go a little further than that; surely they could say that cases with merit will be considered, especially if there is some reason for the individual person delaying his application. There should be some little let-out of that kind, should there not?

Lord Avebury

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Russell has been mentioned, I draw attention to the fact that he moved an amendment on the clause in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill on 24 October 2002. The matter was taken up by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which in its 23rd report of Session 2001–02, HL paper 176, concluded that there was a significant risk that the new clause would lead to a violation of Article 11.1 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. There was a threat of violation of Articles 3 and/or 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

It is worth reminding ourselves of that exchange in October 2002, because we frequently refer to the JCHR. There are always good reasons why the Minister of the day rejects its findings, but it is our watchdog in the matter of human rights. We should pay a little more attention to what it says, otherwise there will be more cases in which the Government have to answer to the Court of Appeal, like the one that we are discussing at the moment. If we had paid attention to my noble friend Lord Russell and to the JCHR then, we would not be faced with the difficulties that the Government have encountered with Section 55 in the Court of Appeal.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, before I start, I reiterate not only on my own behalf but on behalf of others as well that we hope to see the noble Earl, Lord Russell, back in his place as soon as possible.

I know this is totally out of order, but in this place there are no rules, so you can get away with it. Regarding the earlier debate we had on Zimbabwe, unfortunately we do not collect information on the voluntary returns on a country-specific basis, but I have asked officials to see whether they can obtain a figure from the International Organisation for Migration, and I will naturally follow that up in writing for noble Lords who have been present today.

Read literally, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was including me in his term "gesture politics". First, the package is not gesture politics and, secondly, I assure him that I would have no part in sucking up to the ragbag people who run the Daily Mail. Sincerity is a zero sum on this issue. We cannot prove that any part of the changes in the Immigration Rules and procedures in the past few years has been the only or key part, but we know the total effect of the changes of the package of which Section 55 is a part has been a halving in the number of asylum claims since the autumn of 2002. Therefore, while we cannot be precise about the individual components, we see no justification for disturbing the package that has been put together. We cannot be absolutely certain that the signals sent back down the supply chain of people traffickers on one part of the package are translated to another part of the package to get the right effect. Nevertheless, it is not gesture politics; the package was designed for a purpose. We still claim, and rightly so, that the whole issue is proportional to the situation the country found itself in.

The central point about Section 55 is that we were not prepared to use taxpayers' money to support people who make speculative asylum claims, or indeed anyone who has some other means of support. I freely admit that not every person who claims asylum also claims financial support, but the number of speculative asylum claims was high. We think Section 55 has been effective in tackling that kind of abuse to send a signal to those who are simply economic migrants: first, that there are other ways and, secondly, that if they use the speculative route they will not be supported at the taxpayer's expense.

I am pleased and grateful that the noble Earl has brought these amendments forward. It is the right and proper thing to do. However, I am obviously fairly constrained in what I can say, because this year the Court of Appeal gave its judgment in those three test cases concerning the application of Article 3 of the ECHR in cases where support had been refused under Section 55 and dismissed the Government's appeals in the individual cases. In giving guidance on the issue, the Court of Appeal was divided as to the correct approach, as indeed was the High Court before it. In his minority judgment, Lord Justice Laws points out that the relevant principles in this area are "more than usually elusive". Clearly, these cases raise issues of general public importance and legal complexity.

The Home Office maintains that Section 55 strikes the right balance between fulfilling our obligations to genuine asylum seekers and protecting the system against abuse. We have therefore sought, and been granted, leave to appeal to the House of Lords against the Court of Appeal judgment of 21 May, although I understand that this will not be heard by the Appellate Committee of your Lordships' House until much later in the year. In the mean time, we have issued new interim policy guidance, to which the noble Lord referred, and we will continue to make decisions in line with the judgment expressed in the Court of Appeal.

Section 55 is a tough policy. It was designed to be, in order to face a serious issue. The section has been kept under close review since it was introduced, and, where appropriate, has been amended, as demonstrated by the change of approach announced by the Home Secretary on 17 December last year, whereby in general a person who applies within three days of arrival in the UK would be considered to have applied as soon as reasonably practical. Quite why they could not have applied when they reached our shores at the port, heaven only knows, but that is the issue everyone always asks about—"Why not?". There are good reasons why some people cannot apply immediately, but within three days we think they ought to be able to.

There are already a number of safeguards built in to protect vulnerable people, and those with care needs continue to be supported by local authorities. Moreover, it is open to anyone who may receive a negative decision under Section 55 to request reconsideration of their case. Emergency accommodation will be provided in what we believe are seriously arguable cases in the small proportion of reconsideration decisions that cannot be made on the same day. Each case is considered on its merits. Where the period is longer than three days, people's circumstances will be fully taken into account. We fully accept that, in some cases, three days may not be reasonably practicable.

There is little evidence of a rise in rough sleeping as a result of Section 55. Rough sleeping on the streets of London has been cut by about 70 per cent since the Rough Sleepers Unit—now the Homelessness Directorate of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister—was set up. A count is taken, but we have no evidence that Section 55 has caused a rise. Both officials and outreach workers are out on the streets on a regular basis, not just on the nights of the counts, and I have spent one night with them—although I cannot really claim that it was a night, as I knocked off just after midnight. I had to be introduced as Jeff, a researcher from Birmingham, because if I had been introduced as the Minister no one would have talked to me. I did not find any asylum seekers, but that was just one evening for a few hours. The point is that we monitor the situation of rough sleepers because, having achieved a 70 per cent reduction, we want to go the whole hog.

We accept and freely admit that there were some initial problems with the operation of Section 55, and, where required, we have made changes. The recent Court of Appeal judgment does not alter our view that the policy has been effective or that we have sufficient provisions in place to protect people who are vulnerable. We certainly do not consider that it would be the right to abolish Section 55 altogether, bearing in mind that we have given notice of appeal to the highest court in the land, and that is where it will be decided. In the mean time, we will operate the policy in line with the judgment given down by the Court of Appeal. I hope I have made the position clear. The provision is not totally flexible, but it call be reasonably practicable for the period to be over three days because we judge each case on its merits.

5.45 p.m.

The Earl of Sandwich

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, said that Section 55 was continuously under review, and the Minister has confirmed that today, which is very welcome. I accept and welcome his flexible approach, and the fact that every case will be looked at on its merits, possibly even after the draconian three days.

This is not a party political matter, and it is partly for that reason that I am speaking from the Cross Benches. Many others are involved in this, and, if it came to a vote in a future Bill, I hope that vote would be free. This matter causes a lot of concern outside this House, among voluntary organisations and those working with asylum seekers. I was tempted this morning to press my amendment to a Division, although of course it would be only a protest vote. But the numbers outside this House are more convincing evidence than those inside it. We will just wait to see what the effects of the Bill are.

I thank all the noble Lords who have taken part and supported this amendment. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for speaking on this occasion, and because she has said that the Conservative Party is going to give this matter much more thought, which is also very welcome. The Government have moved, albeit under pressure from the judges and, I hope, from some of us. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12 [Refugee: back-dating of benefits]:

Lord Rooker

moved Amendment No. 9:

Page 14, line 35, leave out "paragraph 63" and insert "paragraphs 62 and 63"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 9, I wish to speak briefly also to Amendments Nos. 10 and 11.

These amendments make minor consequential changes to the regulations applying in Northern Ireland to ensure consistency with the other regulations referred to in Clause 12. Clause 12 expressly revokes the regulations that set out the current back payments system established under the powers contained in Section 123 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. We discussed that scheme at some length both in Committee on Recommitment and on Report. As I say, these amendments make purely minor consequential changes to the regulations applying to Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, these government amendments give me an opportunity to make a special appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. Would he be so kind as to use his influence in the Home Office on a Northern Ireland matter? What is happening at present is that small numbers of asylum seekers are being imprisoned in Northern Ireland, sometimes for rather long periods. This is something which makes the management of Northern Ireland prisons, which is already extremely difficult, rather more complicated than it need be.

I suggest to the noble Lord—perhaps he will discuss this with his colleagues both in the Home Office and in the Northern Ireland Officet—that there is a fairly simple solution; namely, to commission a housing association in Northern Ireland, of which there is quite a range, to provide accommodation that is semi-secure, under curfew, or under whatever restrictions the Government wish to impose, so that these people can be held in a known place while their cases are considered rather than having them in prison. I hope that that appeals to the noble Lord's good nature.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, certainly, it is news to me that asylum seekers are being held in prison as asylum seekers anywhere in the UK. I did not know about that situation in Northern Ireland. I shall ensure that the matter is taken up by my ministerial colleagues in the Home Office who have policy responsibility for the matter. I am but their mouthpiece here, but nevertheless it is a matter for which I am answerable as a government spokesman. I shall ensure that we try to achieve a satisfactory solution to the point raised by the noble Lord.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Rooker

moved Amendments Nos. 10 and 11:

Page 14, line 36, leave out "paragraph 49" and insert "paragraphs 48 and 49

Page 14, line 47, at end insert—

"( ) Regulation 11(1) and (2) of the Social Security (Immigration and Asylum) Consequential Amendments Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 (S.R. 2000 No. 71) (which make similar transitional savings) shall cease to have effect."

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Avebury

moved Amendment No. 12:

Page 15, line 4, at end insert— ( ) No such order shall be made unless the Secretary of State is satisfied that the amount of benefits paid to or on behalf of the refugee while his application was under consideration or under appeal was equivalent in total to the amount a person would have received by way of income support and housing benefit for the same period and for accommodation of the same value.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, as the Minister may perhaps have gathered, this amendment is designed to resolve the arguments that we had several times during the course of this Bill, as well as on the asylum support regulations a week ago, on the value of the NASS full support package for asylum seekers waiting for their cases to be decided, and whether or not if it comes to less than they would have received on income support, the Government are in breach of their obligation under Article 23 of the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees to, accord to refugees lawfully staying in their territory the same treatment with respect to public relief and assistance as is accorded to their nationals".

We have said all along that asylum seekers do not get the same treatment as our own citizens, and in 2002 the Government conceded that the voucher scheme constituted inferior treatment not only because the vouchers could be cashed only in certain shops, but also because, as the then Home Secretary Mr Jack Straw frankly acknowledged that, the support that we are providing will be equivalent to the 90 per cent. of income support that is otherwise available to asylum seekers."[Official Report, Commons, 16/6/99; col. 472.]

When the vouchers were scrapped in 2002, they were replaced by cash amounting to 70 per cent of income support, and the payment of utility bills and household costs continued, as before. So the value of the total package must have remained at the 90 per cent of income support declared by the then Home Secretary, unless for some unexplained reason the utility and household costs for people on income support had increased from 20 per cent to 30 per cent of their expenditure. That seemed to be the claim of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, when he said: The calculation has been made that the discount, the 30 per cent— that was the first we had ever heard of it— is approximate to the value of housing accommodation which is fully furnished and has all the necessary utensils and furniture in place."[Official Report, 14/3/02; col. 1017.] But there was never any attempt to justify this astonishing increase from 20 per cent to 30 per cent in a period of less than three years. When the matter came under closer scrutiny on 15 June and again last week, first the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and then the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, contented themselves with repeating the bare assertion, without giving any of the underlying arithmetic.

When the Joint Committee on Human Rights examined the matter, it said: The Government has not provided Parliament with the detailed evidence which demonstrates that the value of the benefits in kind provided to asylum-seekers is equivalent to the value of the back-payments being abolished". The Government did not provide any evidence and they still have not done so, though it was not the back payments themselves that were at issue; it was whether the total package was equal to 90 per cent, 100 per cent, or some other percentage of income support. The noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, has acknowledged at last, in a letter dated 25 June, which I did not receive until the day after the previous debate on this clause, that the package is not worth 100 per cent after all, and that the assertion made on at least three occasions was wrong. The JCHR ought now to consider, in the light of that admission, whether there is a significant risk of a breach of Article 23 of the Refugee Convention or Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights in conjunction with Article 1 Protocol 1. The noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, now tells me in this letter that the value of the package is, on average only 4% lower than income support levels". I made it 7 per cent, and I gave the details of the calculation, which the noble Baroness has not done, but whether it is 4 per cent or 7 per cent, asylum seekers are worse off by that amount than British citizens on income support levels.

Ministers have also stated, incorrectly, that putting asylum seekers on level terms with those on income support means that they should not be eligible for payments other than bare NASS support. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, did not respond when I pointed out last Tuesday that people on income support have access to other discretionary payments which are not available to asylum seekers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, in this letter, acknowledges that UNHCR has been critical of the Government's proposals in Clause 12, but she now advances a novel interpretation of the convention, which she has not discussed with the UNHCR, which is under international law the guardian and interpreter of the convention. She has not discussed it with the JCHR either, and its conclusions on Clause 11 were based on the assumption that the Government's previous statements about the arithmetic of their proposal were correct. The noble Baroness now says that short-changing asylum seekers by 4 per cent is, sufficient to meet the requirements of the Refugee Convention". I have taken advice on this, and, as I hope the noble Lord will be aware, the UNHCR has explicitly contradicted the noble Baroness's assertion—"a very unusual, if not unprecedented, occurrence. In its letter to me of 2 July it says: UNHCR does not consider that provisions which have 'broadly the same material effect' are sufficient to meet the standards required by the 1951 Convention … UNHCR considers 'same treatment' in Article 23 to mean exactly equal material benefits. This accords with the common usage of the word 'same' as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary. Equal treatment is fundamental to the spirit of the 1951 Convention, and there can be no degrees of equality".

Clause 12 puts asylum seekers in a benefits regime inferior to that required by Article 23 of the convention, and the Government must not deliberately enact a measure which makes the UK non-compliant with an important requirement of international law. This would be especially heinous, considering that we are members of the executive committee of the UNHCR, with a responsibility to set an example in upholding the standards set by the convention. This amendment would give us the breathing space that is needed to undertake proper consultations and to redesign the NASS package, so that it provides asylum seekers with the same treatment as our nationals and not something which falls short of that obligation. I beg to move.

6 p.m.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, there was one phrase used by the noble Lord which I wish he had not used. My response to it is this. The British taxpayer is forking out over £1 billion a year for asylum seekers. To say that we are short-changing asylum seekers is just the kind of thing that plays into the hands of those friends at the Daily Mail, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord McNally—because they will twist it. To say that we are short-changing asylum seekers, when we are spending over £1 billion by way of taxpayers' support, is extravagant language in the extreme and sends out all the wrong signals regarding the policy we are trying to address.

On the other hand, the noble Lord is right to come back on the issue at Third Reading. I have no complaint about that. However, we are not prepared to accept the amendment.

In the letter dated 30 June which he wrote to my noble friend Lady Scotland the noble Lord made a number of points, and I am grateful to him for making these known before the debate. He has not yet received a written response from the noble Baroness, and I do not say that the response is winging its way from the Home Office, but it is being put together. I will now try to answer those points.

The first point the noble Lord makes is about the arithmetical equivalence or otherwise of the benefits available to asylum seekers in NASS accommodation, as compared with UK nationals. As has been said in the exchange of letters, the Government's assessment is that the difference is on average 4 per cent. In the debate on 29 June on the Asylum Support (Amendment)(No. 2) Regulations, the noble Lord set out a calculation which concluded that the difference is 7 per cent for a married couple with no children.

The Government will happily set out the assumptions by which they have arrived at the figure of 4 per cent. I will not go through them line by line, but the Government do not wish to make a point of disputing the noble Lord's detailed calculations. It so happens that we have used slightly different assumptions and have come up with a slightly different conclusion.

At the risk of falling foul of the noble Lord, I have to make the point clear. The fundamental difference between the Government and the noble Lord is not whether the answer is 4 per cent or 7 per cent. The question is whether any difference is acceptable at all. That is implicit in what the noble Lord said, and I see that the noble Lord agrees with me. In the Government's view, a difference of 7 per cent, such as is estimated by the noble Lord, is acceptable. However, we do not say that the numbers add up exactly. Our argument is that the two regimes are broadly the same in material effect. We are not arguing about the percentages.

I also make the point that access to income support opens up another avenue completely. I said at an earlier stage of this legislation that, in the long run, it might have been cheaper not to have had NASS support in the first place. However, I repeat that we are running a system that is costing over £1 billion in support of asylum seekers.

The noble Lord also said in his letter that we have ignored asylum seekers who have opted for subsistence-only support, and those denied any support at all by virtue of Section 55 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002. Neither of these groups will have had any support in kind from NASS. If those in accommodation are out of pocket to the tune of 7 per cent, those on subsistence only will be out of pocket to the tune of 30 per cent, and those denied support altogether to the tune of 100 per cent. We have not ignored these cases.

In so far as Article 23 may be relevant, the Government's view is that it requires only that the treatment of refugees and nationals be broadly the same in material effect, not identical. Mainstream benefits are intended as a basic safety net to ensure that the poorest have a roof over their heads and sufficient money on which to live. Asylum seekers on subsistence-only support will have this.

Applicants who do not claim as soon as reasonably practicable after entering the UK are still able to access National Asylum Support Service support in the usual way, if they do not otherwise have means of support available to them.

In Clause 12 the Government are proposing to abolish a discredited and retrospective system of back payments, which rewarded time spent stringing out the asylum process. I have explained today how advisers sometimes become involved in that process. We are seeking to stop that.

In Clause 13 we are replacing this with a new, forward-looking system of refugee integration loans. The Government are satisfied that this is within both the spirit and the letter of the Refugee Convention, and we hope that it will result in a better deal for refugees.

As I have said, a proper response to the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will be on its way but I hope that, in the light of these explanations, the noble Lord will not press his amendment.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, the argument is not one solely between myself and the Minister. The argument is between me and the UNHCR on the one hand and the Minister on the other. The Minister has to satisfy the UNHCR that he is in compliance with Article 23 of the Convention.

He says that it is okay to short-change the asylum seekers by 4 per cent or 7 per cent and, as he says, we are not arguing about the exact figure because we can attempt to reconcile the arithmetic "off-line", as it were. I stick by the figures I gave and I have told the colleague of the noble Lord where the figures came from—the Government's own statistics. If his calculation comes up with a slightly different figure, we will not argue about that detail. However, the noble Lord is now saying that to be in full compliance with Article 23 it is sufficient to give the asylum seekers something less than equal treatment with British citizens. That is not what the Convention says and not what the UNHCR's interpretation of the Convention confirms—which the noble Lord has seen.

Although we will not take this any further this evening on the Floor of the House, I can assure the noble Lord that he has not heard the last of it. It will be necessary for him to satisfy not just the UNHCR representative in the UK but UNHCR headquarters in Geneva.

It is a matter of principle. It is the difference between the noble Lord, who says that something which is roughly equivalent, but is less than full equal treatment by 4 or 7 per cent, complies with the Convention, and the authorities of the UNHCR, who say that equal means equal. It is a matter we will not resolve this evening, but I am sure that the noble Lord will hear a great deal more of it hereafter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 13 [Integration loan for refugees]:

Baroness Anelay of St Johns

moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 15, line 24, at end insert— ( ) shall enable the Secretary of State to specify that a loan shall be made by instalments,

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I hope that I can be very brief on this. It may also be for the convenience of the House, given the time we have needed to discuss such important matters this afternoon, if I indicated that I do not need to move Amendment No. 14. I have notified the Front Benches and the ensuing speaker.

Amendment No. 13 gives the Government the opportunity to carry out a commitment they gave at a previous stage of the Bill when, on 28 June at col. 44, the Minister said that the Government were intrigued by the proposal of this amendment; that they would look at it, and come back with further clarification at Third Reading.

The Clause enables the Government to provide an integration loan to refugees, which will replace the backdating of benefits. The question I asked was whether it would not be convenient for the Secretary of State to have the power, in making a loan, to be able to make that loan by way of instalments rather than in one lump sum, particularly if a fairly large sum of money were involved.

I am therefore seeking that the Government put that clarification on the record. I beg to move.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, I, too, greatly look forward to hearing the Minister's reply. After reflecting on this matter it seems that we do not yet know the nature of the loan scheme or how much it will cost the taxpayer. It will be fairly expensive. However, it could be, without in any way incommoding a refugee, that much money could be saved if it was possible to pay a certain amount of the loan and then proceed later with other sums by instalments. As my noble friend said, a person's circumstances may change and we hope that many refugees, having received a loan, will find a job and begin to earn—perhaps well and will not need the further loan instalments. Will it be possible to incorporate this provision in the loan scheme?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, yes, certainly; although I should make clear it that this will not cost the taxpayer anything in terms of new money, because the refugee integration loan will be funded from the abolition of the back-payments scheme. This is not new, extra money it is already being paid by the taxpayer. When we discussed this matter on Report I thanked the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for her helpful suggestion that the loan could be made in instalments. We still consider that to be a suggestion which we should like to see carried through to the operation of the loan scheme.

We have now had the opportunity to confirm our original impression that we believe it is possible to make provision for the loan to be paid by instalments through the present drafting of the clause by conferring a discretion on the Secretary of State. There is one caveat. If the Secretary of State makes a loan by instalments it should not circumvent either the provision prohibiting the making of two loans to one person or any provision made for a minimum or maximum amount of a loan. We think that is right. If the Secretary of State makes a loan by instalments, it should be one loan that does not exceed any specified maximum amount, made in staged payments over time. It should not be a route that enables more than one loan to be made to any person or a way to enable a loan to be made in excess of the specified maximum amount. That will be in the regulations.

During the debate at Report stage the noble Baroness explained that paying the loan by instalments would enable payments to be halted if there was a sudden change for the better in the fortunes of the applicant, given that the loans will be based on need and individual circumstances. The provision to confer a discretion on the Secretary of State or the amendment would not by themselves achieve that objective. However, we have considered this again and would suggest that it might be best achieved by making a provision under subsection (3)(d) for the loan to become repayable in full in specified circumstances, of which sudden affluence could be one.

This matter will return to the House for detailed examination when we have a scheme to present to Parliament. I should like to thank the noble Baroness for her suggestion.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister's helpful answer, not only regarding this matter but for his explanation of how the Government could work the loan proposals into the existing skeleton of Clause 13 with, perhaps, regulations coming later.

The explanation that he gave regarding the use of subsection (3) (i), which confers a discretion on the Secretary of State, went a long way to reassuring me about some of the concerns that I expressed on Report on recommitment. I shall look carefully at Hansard, but the Minister seemed to say that the Government would not be trying to obviate or get out of the provisions in the rest of subsection (3)(a) to (h) by using the discretion provided for in subsection (3)(i). The Minister has satisfied me on more than one point and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 17 [Retention of documents]:

[Amendment No. 14 not moved.]

The Countess of Mar

moved Amendment No. 15:

Before Clause 19, insert the following new clause—