HL Deb 14 December 2004 vol 667 cc1317-22

Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 (c. 26)

1 The Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 is amended as follows.

2 In section 6, for the words from the beginning to "insert—" substitute "For section 12B of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 substitute—".

3 In Schedule 13 (repeals and revocations) insert in the appropriate place—

Constitutional Reform Act 2002 Sections (Removal from most senior judicial offices) to (Tribunals for considering removal).""

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 15 [Repeals and revocations]:

Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No.180:

Page 237, leave out lines 29 and 30.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, as a result of changes made by other amendments, both in Committee and on Report, Amendments Nos. 180 to 185 add additional references or delete defunct references to Schedule 15—the tables of provisions that are repealed or revoked by the Bill. The amendments have already been spoken to. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

11 p.m.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendments Nos.181 to 185:

Page 237, leave out line 35.

Page 239, leave out lines 6 to 12.

Page 239, line 12, at end insert—

"Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 (c. 41)"
Section 11(10).

Page 239, line 27, column 2, at beginning insert "In"

Page 240, leave out lines 1 to 36.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 186 to 188 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos.189 to 191:

Page 240, leave out line 40.

Page 241, leave out line 4.

Page 241. leave out line 17.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 192 not moved.]

Clause 106 [Extent]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No.192A:

Page 43, line 31, at end insert— () Part 3A extends to Northern Ireland only.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 107 [Commencement]:

Viscount Bledisloe moved Amendment No.193:

Page 43, line 38, at end insert () No order shall be made to bring Part 2 into force unless the Lord Chancellor is satisfied that appropriate premises are available which are ready for use as the Supreme Court or will he so ready when that Part comes into effect.

() In this section— appropriate premises" means premises built to a design which the Lord Chancellor has, after consultation with the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary, approved as being appropriate for use as the Supreme Court; built" includes altered or renovated.

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, with great glee, your Lordships have now come finally to the sunrise clause. There are two versions of it. After some negotiation with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, I am content to allow him to prefer his version. I think that both achieve the same result; namely, that there are two stages to the sunrise clause.

First, the Lord Chancellor—I thought that the noble and learned Lord was going to describe him as the "Lord Chancellor" and not as the "Minister" in his amendment—must decide whether to put forward plans which are, in his view, suitable for providing accommodation for the Supreme Court. He then has to consult the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary about those and, having done that, he may approve the plans. The plans are then implemented and, when the accommodation built in accordance with the plans is completed or nearly completed, he may then, and only then, bring the Supreme Court provision into effect. That seems to me to be a satisfactory form for the sunrise clause to take and, as I said, I am prepared to accept the noble and learned Lord's wording.

I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is intending to move Amendment No. 193B. If he is, I must point out to him that I am not sure whether he has the timing right because the matter would come before the House only when the premises were fully built and virtually ready. It would seem a little late at that stage for the House to say that it did not like them.

Surely if the matter is to be considered by the House, it should be considered at the stage when the plans are approved rather than when the building is completed, when the House could say, "Well, it doesn't seem to us, contrary to what the Lord Chancellor says, that it is ready", or, "It doesn't seem to have been built in accordance with the plans and is a totally different building". I do not think that that is a very useful function for the House, although it might well be useful for the House to consider the matter at the planning stage, when it would be able to see more realistically what the building would cost.

However, having formally moved Amendment No. 193, I shall withdraw it in due course in expectation of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor moving Amendment No. 193A. I beg to move.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart

My Lords, at this hour the words that spring to my mind are those of William Shakespeare in an early scene in Hamlet: But, look, the morn, in russet mantle clad, Walks o'er the dew of yon high eastward hill". An appropriate conclusion to our deliberations today is to say a most profound "Thank you" to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for the amendment that he is about to move and which has already been accepted by the mover of Amendment No. 193. It is a most welcome development, albeit to some extent a constitutional innovation, that the bricks and mortar should precede the creation of the new institution. Certainly that would not have gone down well in Scottish devolutionary terms.

Lord Kingsland

My Lords, I thought I would add my own Shakespearean contribution to your Lordships' deliberations, adapting the first lines of Hamlet's great soliloquy by saying, "To build or not to build, that is the question" that lies before your Lordships tonight. It is wholly relevant to the sunrise clause, which is before us in this group of amendments. I am perfectly content with the version proposed by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and my contentment is reinforced by the support from the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe.

I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for his advice on our drafting. I shall certainly take it into account when the matter re-emerges a few days hence at Third Reading. The reason why Amendment No. 193B has been tabled is to cater for a set of circumstances in which the preferred option of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor does not transpire to be a runner; and that, after careful reflection, the noble and learned Lord, or one of his successors, decides to promote another building, or indeed to build a new building, whose costs are out of all proportion to those envisaged with the current preferred option. In those circumstances, I should have thought it wholly appropriate for Parliament to look again at the matter through a delegated legislative procedure, along the lines suggested by Amendment No. 193B.

I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, that the earlier that Parliament has a chance to consider this matter the better. It may be that the planning stage, rather than the order stage, is the more appropriate moment at which to re-engage Parliament's responsibilities.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville

My Lords, I shall be extremely brief, particularly at this hour. Earlier today, a reference was made to the Scottish Parliament. I speak as a veteran of the building of the British Library. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, negotiated with Mrs Shirley Williams, as she then was, in a manner that he later described in his book about his life at the Treasury. He said that the arrangements at the Treasury had been so tightly drawn that, were there to be any setback in the economy during the construction of the British Library, there was not the faintest possibility of it being built before the end of the century.

In 1994, I appeared before Mr Kaufman's committee, which was investigating the delays. Towards the end of my examination, he asked me a sharp question: "Minister, you must know that someone is responsible for all this". Knowing that it would greatly curtail the proceedings if I answered in a particular way, I said: Mr Chairman, you must know that of course under ministerial responsibility it is I who am responsible". Since the British Library was finished in 1998, I can claim, in the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, "some small credit for a miracle". But the fact that that took 20 years is a sombre warning to the Lord Chancellor about what he has embarked upon. It is a perfectly admirable development that this sunrise clause has been built in, so that final developments will not occur until the building is complete.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, what a refreshing intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. The noble Lord has not spoken in this particular debate and because we have been at it for about seven hours we are all delighted to hear a new voice and see a fresh face. Unfortunately, he turned out to be the ghost of the British Library past, but we take his warnings on board.

I pay a heartfelt tribute to the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, for the work he has done on the sunrise clause. Although he was kind enough to call it my sunrise clause, in fact the inspiration for it and the major part of the drafting came from the noble Viscount. I am very grateful for that.

We all agree that we should have the sunrise clause. I oppose strongly Amendment No. 193B of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. The sunrise clause, as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said, is an important and sensible amendment. But the idea that Parliament should have a third look at this is not sensible. It would not be appropriate to have a Supreme Court built and for Parliament then not to give permission to go ahead. That is why we have to address the principle and look at the protections in place. On that basis, I invite the noble Viscount to withdraw his amendment and I will move mine.

Viscount Bledisloe

My Lords, accordingly, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No.193A:

Page 44, line 8, at end insert— (3A) An order by which section 14(1) comes into force at any time may not be made unless the Minister is satisfied that the Supreme Court will at that time be provided with accommodation in accordance with written plans that he has approved.

(3B) The Minister may approve plans only if, having consulted the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary holding office at the time of the approval, he is satisfied that accommodation in accordance with the plans will be appropriate for the purposes of the Court."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 193B not moved.]

In the Title:

[Amendment No. 194 not moved.]

House adjourned at twelve minutes past eleven o'clock.