Iraq: Amnesty International Report (Hansard, 27 April 2004)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)
My Lords, as CPA order 17 makes clear, investigations of wrongdoing are the responsibility of the country of origin of the individuals concerned. Her Majesty's Government take very seriously the allegations of torture, deliberate destruction of property and killing of unarmed civilians. When allegations concern United Kingdom personnel, in the first instance a senior officer considers whether the appropriate rules 685 of engagement have been applied. If he or she is not satisfied, an independent investigation is carried out. When UK personnel are found to have broken the law, appropriate disciplinary measures will be taken, including criminal proceedings when necessary.

§ Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that detailed reply. Does she agree that the use of collective punishment, such as the demolition of houses and the heavy use of retaliation against civilian insurgents, such as the use of tanks and helicopter gunships, is clearly contrary to the fourth Geneva Convention of which the United Kingdom is a signatory? Can she also tell the House whether the United Kingdom has asked for any review of the tactics being used at the present time against insurgent civilians, given that the experience of the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland, painfully learnt, is that restraint is very helpful indeed in gaining support and winning hearts and minds? Can she confirm that we are drawing the attention of our American allies to this somewhat more restrained approach?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I agree that the use of collective punishment and the disproportionate use of force against civilians are wrong. I agree with the noble Baroness unequivocally on both points. The noble Baroness asked me about reviews of tactics. The review of tactics or rules of engagement, call them what you will, is something to which this Government pay a great deal of attention. Your Lordships will know that our rules of engagement are referred the Attorney-General to make sure that they are consistent with our international obligations. Of course we believe that the United States of America has similar obligations. In preparing for this Question, I asked about the position of the United States. I am told that the United States has confirmed that all reports of detainee abuse by US personnel are taken seriously, that all allegations of mistreatment are investigated and that an investigation of six US personnel is currently under way. There have been two investigations in relation to United Kingdom personnel.

§ Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, does the Minister agree that all civilian deaths in Iraq are deeply regrettable and that every effort must be made to avoid them? But will she join me in paying tribute to our excellent. Armed Forces in Iraq, whose professionalism, restraint and experience have done so much to minimise Iraqi casualties and to help to improve their situation?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I agree with that unequivocally. I accept that the allegations in this report are very serious and that they must be investigated properly, in the way that I have indicated to your Lordships, but the fact is that some 60,000 British troops have served in Iraq in the past year. It is overwhelmingly clear that 99 times out of 100–999 times out of 1,000—the behaviour of our troops has been exemplary. I have visited the troops, both under General Lamb and under General Stewart. Whatever the seriousness of these allegations, which 686 will be dealt with properly and in the way that I have described, they must not obscure the record of the overwhelming majority of British troops who have been a credit to this country.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, does the Minister accept that policing by Arabic-speaking police officers and the disarmament of the civilian population are key issues underlying the present troubles? Can she give us any good news about those two points?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords. I do not entirely agree. It is not just a question of speaking Arabic. The noble Lord must understand the way in which Iraqi society has been riven by internal strife between Shia and Sunni and the terrible legacy that some senior officers of the Ba'ath Party brought to bear. I think that we all agree that the wholesale dismissal of members of the Ba'ath Party, not only in the police but in other parts of public life, was rather more thorough than it might have been.
The key to this is not just speaking Arabic; it is also proper training; for example, understanding that it is quite inappropriate for troops to take a dog into a Muslim house in search of weapons or whatever because it is wholly out of keeping with Islamic convictions. The noble Lord asked how the training is progressing. It is going well. It is going on in Jordan and in different parts of Iraq. There are now more than 50,000 police and we are seeing increasing numbers of people in the armed forces. There is no shortage of willing recruits among Iraqis to join the security services.

§ Baroness Northover
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the views expressed by former UK diplomats that, at the very least, the number of Iraqi casualties should be counted? What message does she think that the fact that they are not counted sends? In addition, can she say whether the terms of engagement of coalition forces in Iraq have been published? If not, will they be published?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, on the noble Baroness's final point, the answer is "no". We will not publish the terms of engagement. The noble Baroness will know that we never publish terms of engagement because to do so would endanger our troops. She will find that that point has consistently been made. The security of our own troops must come first.
On the point made in the letter from the 52 former diplomats, I wish that we could count civilian casualties. I genuinely wish that that were the case. We have done our best to count them but I am bound to say to the noble Baroness that the practicalities involved are very difficult indeed. Certainly during the early part of the engagement, it has not always been possible to know what civilian casualties there were on the ground. If the noble Baroness were to use her imagination, she would realise that one does not know who has been hurt by shells fired from several miles away. We do our best to count civilian casualties now.
687 I agree with the noble Baroness that this is very important. I wish that we could do more. I know that the Prime Minister is very concerned about this issue.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, would not the earliest possible transfer of responsibility for security to the interim authority that is to be set up in June avoid many of the incidents referred to in the report mentioned in the Question on the Order Paper? Is that not precisely what many members of the IGC want now, yet the Americans insist on rejecting it?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I agree that it would be a very good thing to transfer responsibility for as much security as possible but the key to the noble Lord's question is in those very words, "as much as security as possible". I know that the noble Lord's Iraqi contacts are extremely good and he will know that the Iraqis are the first to say, "Please do not take the security of coalition forces from Iraq too soon". It is enormously important that coalition forces stay.
The allegations in these reports are very serious but the majority of the allegations ate not about British personnel. We do not have the power to investigate other allegations but we urge countries whose nationals are accused to make their own investigations. The noble Lord referred to the allegations as though the report was full of them. It is not. It is full of general points with two specific allegations, which have been investigated. It is enormously important that, if people know about incidents that need to be investigated, we must know what those allegations are and have the specifics. Then we are able to follow up with the kind of investigations that I detailed in my first Answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams.