House of Lords: Access (Hansard, 30 October 2003)

§ The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, the House of Lords is committed to improving access for those with mobility problems and to meeting all its obligations under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. To that end, a survey of the Palace for access and facilities is under way and the report is due in January 2004. Its recommendations will be considered by the Administration and Works Committee and by other bodies, including English Heritage.

§ Lord Addington
My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, will he tell us what consideration 426 has been given to the large number of small flights of steps that are part of this building, and to those who have the sort of difficulty in moving that means that they need a stick or crutches—either permanently or temporarily? If those people are not taken into account, we cannot really say that we have a uniform access plan.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I hope that, where possible, ramps have been installed that should assist those with mobility problems. I know that there was a recent case of access difficulties to the staff restaurant. A temporary ramp was installed, which is now being or will shortly be replaced by a permanent one.

§ Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, we on these Benches want as much as possible to be done for those with mobility problems. What practical constraints are imposed on the House authorities because this building is listed Grade I?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, there are constraints. For example, it was at one time proposed during the restoration of Nos. 6 to 7 Old Palace Yard to install a lift. That was not allowed by English Heritage. So there are constraints as a result of the listing of this building.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, has the Chairman of Committees taken into account that ramps are helpful to wheelchairs, but not to calipers and sticks, which require a succession of shallow steps? I declare an obvious interest.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, we all admire the way the noble Lord manages to get about. I of course take his point on board. I should hope, if noble Lords have problems or suggestions, that they would not wait for a Starred Question to be tabled but would come to see me about them directly; we will always try to do our best.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, what progress is being made in respect of our lovely chapel, St Mary Undercroft?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, provision of a lift to enable those with mobility problems to have access to the crypt was included in the most recent summer works programme. However, English Heritage asked for the proposed access point to be changed. After investigation by the designers, revised details for listed building consultation were provided to Westminster City Council. The agreed period for its decision expires on 9th December. We understand that agreement is probable and we hope to proceed with installation of a lift soon thereafter.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, will the Chairman of Committees confirm that when the refurbishment of Fielden House is complete it will be fully accessible?

§ The Chairman of Committees
Yes, my Lords, I am pleased to give that assurance.

§ Lord Imbert
My Lords, could other able-bodied Members of your Lordships' House be asked politely 427 not to park in the disabled parking space near Peers' Entrance, because that prevents a disabled Member from coming here?
I have another point that may sound trivial but is even more serious. Could able-bodied Members be asked not to use the disabled toilets on any floor? A disabled person has no choice and, if the toilet is occupied, must go up or down a floor I declare an interest in that, having gone down a floor only to find that toilet also occupied by an able-bodied Member of your Lordships' House.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I have great sympathy with the noble Lord and hope that no noble Lord who does not need to would use the disabled toilets nor any of the disabled parking places. If there is a requirement for more disabled parking places, they can of course be provided.

§ Lord Tebbit
My Lords, may I make three brief points? First, English Heritage is too frequently used as an excuse for people to avoid taking on their responsibilities. Secondly, lifts need not be ugly and distasteful; they can be installed well and unobtrusively. Thirdly, there are stages at which it becomes absurd to provide full access for disabled people—let us take the clock tower as an extreme case. We must not destroy what people value in this building in an artificial effort to make everywhere absolutely accessible for a minority.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, on the latter point, we could not possibly make everywhere accessible, for the reasons given by the noble Lord. On the point about English Heritage, I fear that the House has an obligation as a major listed building to take account of what it says.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, will the Chairman of Committees tell us what arrangements are made for access by disabled people to the galleries of your Lordships' House?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I fear that I am not entirely sure of the answer to that; I shall have to investigate and write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Ackner
My Lords, six months ago, I would not have thought that I would have been involved in asking questions on this subject. First, I should like to say how extraordinarily helpful are the staff to all those who have a disability, and how immensely helpful are one's colleagues. However, there is one area in which access could be improved: the steps up to the lift by what were once the Lord Chancellor's premises. The steps there could support a ramp, which some people could use—at present, me; but I expect that soon that will not be possible.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House would join the noble: and learned Lord in thanking our excellent staff for all that they do to assist all of us—not just those of us with mobility 428 problems. As for the particular points he raised, I shall have to look into the matter; I shall do so after the end of this Question.

§ Baroness Darcy de Knayth
My Lords, does the Lord Chairman agree that huge progress has been made, and of a very high standard, regarding access for wheelchair users? We need to think more about the ambulant disabled getting to places as quickly as possible, given the distances to be covered. Thanks to the electric wheelchairs that we are now allowed, we can cover the distance in the right amount of time.
Secondly, are there any plans for sorting out any problems that the visually impaired may have for getting around this place?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness; I agree that a lot of progress has been made. As far as visually impaired people are concerned, there was a proposal for a kind of colour coding, but it would not be a practical solution. Rather than providing special facilities it is much easier if, every now and again—after all it is a fairly rare event— people are guided by members of the staff, who are always willing to do so.