Illegal Meat Imports (Hansard, 28 October 2003)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey)
My Lords, full-year figures are published by Defra in the Annual Review of Controls on Imports of Animal Products in July of each year. The figures published by Defra for total seizures of imported goods by all agencies in 2001–02 were 2,053, and in 2002–-03, 7,819. As regards convictions, and further to my Written Answer of 24th September (Official Report, 6/10/03; col. WA 34), Customs and Excise has not recorded any convictions for illegal meat smuggling since 1lth April.

§ Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that, on 19th June this year, some 33 tons of illegal meat were seized in the Tower Hamlets area? Bearing in mind that, in answer to a Written Question I tabled in March of this year, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, stated that: We have made clear that prosecutions are an important aspect of deterrence which we would like to see used where there is clear evidence of a serious breach in the rules".—[Official Report, 4/3/03; WA 106.], why have the Government no stomach for prosecuting the illegal importation of meat?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, of course I agree with what was said by my noble friend Lord Whitty. In order to prosecute, one must demonstrate a proven intention to break the law and the person to be prosecuted must be available to the United Kingdom courts. A balance has to be struck: are we to use the time of Customs and Excise officers in prosecutions or will we deploy it on greater detection? From the point of view of public health, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, would agree that it is better to use the resources available on detection.

§ Earl Peel
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether Customs and Excise officers are still relying on sniffer dogs to detect illegal meat imports? Further, given the potential for yet another outbreak of foot and mouth disease, which caused such great hardship in the countryside—never mind the enormous cost to the Government—can the Minister say whether a feasibility study into the potential use of modern surveillance equipment has been undertaken? If not, why not? If it has been undertaken, can the Minister tell the House the results of that study?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, if, in using the word "rely", the noble Earl, Lord Peel, suggests 131 that we rely entirely on sniffer dogs, then the answer is no. Of course we do use sniffer dogs and, indeed, more sniffer dogs are in training. However, the training period is long and there is strong demand for sniffer dogs also for use in. for example, drug detection. Sniffer dogs are not the only method of detection used. We have four new mobile teams involved in the detection of illegal meat smuggling and we rely very heavily on intelligence. Further, we have run publicity campaigns at airports of entry.
In response to the second question put to me about a study made into electronic techniques, I shall have to write to the noble Earl on that.

§ Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on answering a question which his colleague, John Healey, could not respond to in the House of Commons on 10th September. The noble Lord has also provided us with some statistics. Those statistics were produced in the July report and a long time has elapsed since then. The original Question concerned enforcement methods. Can the noble Lord tell us how many enforcement officers are being used? Further, if people are importing illegal meat, what are the penalties for so doing and why have there been no arrests?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I have already answered the question of arrests in my response to the supplementary question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick. As regards the number of people involved in detection, I have referred to the four new mobile teams. Of course, Customs and Excise officers at airports are not engaged only on the detection of illegal meat smuggling. They are involved in a whole range of activities and therefore it would not be possible to give a figure for the number of "full-time equivalents"—I think that that is the correct term— engaged in this work.

§ Lord Woolmer of Leeds
My Lords, as regards statistics, how many recorded cases have there been in each of the last three years of problems caused to public health by the illegal importation of meat or other animal products?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, that information is not recorded centrally. Data on food-borne illnesses, at least to human beings, would be recorded by individual National Health Service trusts. No cases have been notified to Customs and Excise.

§ The Lord Bishop of Hereford
My Lords, it is very good news that the number of seizures has increased and is to the credit of Customs and Excise. How many of the seizures in the past year were of concealed commercial imports and how many were of meat carried by individuals trying to bring it illegally into the country?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I do not believe that there are such figures because a hard and fast line cannot be drawn. I do not believe that you can 132 distinguish between someone bringing in meat for their own consumption, or for the consumption of friends and members of their community, and someone bringing in meat, for example, for use in a restaurant. It is an unknowable statistic.

§ Baroness Byford
My Lords, is not the Minister concerned that it is total chaos out there? The figures are dreadful, rising from 2,053 seizures in 2001 to 7,819 seizures in 2002–03. His answer that there have been no convictions will be of no consolation to anyone. I hope that he will at least acknowledge that. The Minister said that it is quite difficult to obtain convictions in this country. What action are the Government taking in co-operation with their colleagues in the countries overseas from which these illegal meats are being brought in? They must surely follow the trail backwards. Is any equivalent work being carried out in those countries overseas?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I do not agree that it is total chaos out there, to use the noble Baroness's words. The Government are providing £25 million for the years 2003– 05 to tackle illegal imports of meat, other animal products, plants, plant products and foodstuffs. Customs and Excise has received its fair share of that and I have described the methods it is using. Above all, it is a matter of intelligence, and that is the area in which Customs and Excise is collaborating with Defra to ensure that the kind of people who are most likely to import illegal meat from certain parts of the world—the noble Baroness would not wish me to go into detail—are apprehended wherever possible.