HL Deb 21 October 2003 vol 653 cc1504-6

3.16 p.m.

Lord Grocott

My Lords, with permission, I should like to make a short Statement about future business. As the House will know, the Committee stage of the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill was left unfinished this morning. The intention is that it will be resumed on Thursday morning. That means that the Report stage of the Anti-social Behaviour Bill will then follow whenever the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill is completed. The Report stage of the European Union (Accessions) Bill is rescheduled to next Monday, first business.

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I thank the Government Chief Whip for making that brief Statement and doing it so speedily at the first available opportunity so that everyone can rearrange their diaries. We all appreciate the trouble the Government have got themselves into on the timing of legislation and that is another reason to welcome this announcement.

It is worth reiterating that we accept that the Government have the right to secure their business, but last night we sat until five o'clock in the morning, which was seven hours beyond the recommended cut-off of 10 o'clock in the evening. In all conscience we should not have allowed that to happen. I know that the noble Lord agrees that the current problems do not result from actions in your Lordships' House, which is simply doing its job. That is what it is for and that is what it must do. I hope that the noble Lord will recognise the co-operation he has had from the usual channels in what has been an unusually busy Session. After all, good will is a valuable parliamentary commodity never wisely lost.

I hope that both the Government Chief Whip and the noble Baroness the Leader of the House can be assured of our support if they take a much firmer line with departments and business managers in another place to ensure that such a bottleneck of major and controversial legislation does not arise next Session. We cannot continue to sit at five o'clock in the morning.

Baroness Williams of Crosby

My Lords, I, too, welcome the brief Statement from the Government Chief Whip and say in particular that we appreciate that he has done his best to try to meet the problems which the House confronts. I remind him and the House that those problems do not arise only under one government: governments of both parties have consistently found themselves trying to get through more legislation than this House can handle.

Having said that, it is the case that many, many Peers are now being kept for extraordinarily long hours which the 10 o'clock rule suggested would not happen. It is also worth reminding the House that members of our staff, who often have to be here within a few hours of the moment at which the work of the House ceases, are carrying a huge burden night after night as well as those Peers who are trying to help with legislation.

There is one new factor: as the Commons now timetables all the Bills that pass through it, far more legislation comes to this House without having been fully debated in the other Chamber. The House is therefore faced with the dilemma of whether to undertake the job of thorough scrutiny, which it believes to be its main purpose in life, or to abandon that job in the interests of maintaining reasonable hours. The House should not be faced with that dilemma.

I wish to raise two matters that the Chief Whip might consider. The 10 o'clock rule may not be as effective as trying to reach a particular amendment. It tends to make people feel that they can continue for longer than they might otherwise. Secondly, will he consider closer liaison with his colleagues in the other House so that the allocation of Bills between the two Chambers, and the whole weight of government legislation, could be considered to the benefit of both Houses at a very early stage—that is to say, very shortly before the new Session begins, rather than at the end of the old Session, when we are dealing with an almost impossible load of legislation?

Lord Grocott

My Lords, I am pleased to say that I agree wholeheartedly with many of the comments made by the shadow Leader of the House and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. I repeat on the record and with feeling that I am passionately in favour of this House sitting at sensible hours. It does not aid the Government, the scrutiny of legislation or, as the noble Baroness mentioned, the unfailing goodwill and support of the people who serve us so faithfully in the House. We must bear in mind their interests as well.

I welcome warmly the comment by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that the Government have the right to have their legislation considered—I would expect no less from him. We should remind ourselves that this is a revising Chamber; it does not exercise a veto over government legislation, as I think we all agree. I am sure that all of it will be properly considered.

It is within the power of this House to find the remedy to our problems, which is relatively simple: to find a proper balance between work done on the Floor of the House and that carried out in Committee. We have not yet found that balance in working practices. Floor time is precious; it should be used for major debates and the consideration of major parts of government legislation. It is far more appropriate that detailed consideration take place in Committee.

If humanly possible, I avoid the ritual of abuse between the two Houses that can develop sometimes. It is not helpful from either side. Although the House of Commons timetables its legislation, I venture to suggest that, even should the Official Opposition came into government after the next election—I fervently hope that that will not happen—I would look forward to seeing them abolish the timetabling system. I would be extraordinarily surprised if they did that. Despite the timetabling in the House of Commons, it spends far more time considering legislation in detail precisely because it goes to a committee. If we did that here, we would consider legislation much more effectively, finish at a sensible time and have sensible Recesses.

I thank fervently the 47 Peers who were present at 4.15 this morning—eight from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Benches and a splendid 39 from the Labour Benches, to whom I express special thanks.