HL Deb 14 November 2003 vol 654 cc1736-43

11.35 a.m.

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 3rd November be approved [31st Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the draft order we are considering today, about Internet-related numbers, was published by the Government for extensive public consultation in March and April of this year. The consultation closed on 30th April and five responses were received, mainly from the industry. The industry was supportive of the decision to exclude Internet-related numbers from the definition of "number" in the Communications Act.

The order is to be made under Section 56 of the Communications Act 2003. Noble Lords will recall that the Communications Bill received Royal Assent on 17th July this year after more than a year of parliamentary scrutiny. The Communications Act puts in place a new regulatory framework covering electronic communications, broadcasting and media ownership under the regulation of the new Office of Communications, Ofcom. The new framework aims to create better, more flexible regulation, including more emphasis on self-regulation, and it gives Ofcom wide powers to address anti-competitive behaviour in the sectors that it covers. The scheduled date for Ofcom to launch formally is 29th December this year, when the second commencement order will effect the transfer of the functions of the existing five regulators in broadcasting and communications.

I shall now explain the purpose of this quite straightforward order. It concerns how Ofcom is to regulate telephone numbers. The effect of the order will be to take Internet-related numbers outside the scope of Ofcom's regulatory powers.

Oftel has regulated numbers in the UK since 1994 through operators' licences, but there has not been an explicit statutory basis for its regulation of numbering. In line with an earlier recommendation of the Trade and Industry Select Committee, the Government gave the new regulator for media and communications, Ofcom, explicit statutory authority in respect of numbering under the Communications Act 2003.

The Government have given Ofcom powers to regulate the allocation, transfer and use of telephone numbers. However, we do not consider that it would be appropriate for Ofcom to regulate certain types of numbers, for example, Internet-related numbers, which are currently regulated by industry bodies such as the world-wide Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) and its British associate, Nominet. Given that these numbers are effectively subject to effective self-regulation, we do not consider that they need any additional regulation from Ofcom. This is in line with the Government's policy of regulating only in those areas of the Internet market where it is necessary to do so.

Therefore Section 56(7) of the Communications Act gives the Secretary of State the power to exclude by order any description of numbers from the numbers to be treated as telephone numbers under the Bill. Such an exclusion order would have the effect of excluding certain types of numbers for the time being from the scope of Ofcom's regulatory powers. The Government have framed the legislation in this way so that Ofcom can regulate numbers such as ordinary telephone numbers where regulation is necessary, but not numbers such as Internet-related identifiers—Internet addresses and domain names—that the Government do not for the present consider it sensible or necessary for Ofcom to regulate.

The definition of "telephone number" is set out in Section 56(10) of the Communications Act. The House should note that the definition of "number" is extremely wide, extending to any data used to identify the destination, source or routing of any electronic communication, selecting a service available on an electronic communications network or identifying a communications provider for the purposes of transmitting an electronic communication. Thus, evans@parliament.uk is a "number'' within the meaning of the Act.

The Government considered using a definition of telephone number in the Communications Act which excluded Internet-related identifiers. However, it proved difficult to achieve a satisfactory definition of the types of numbers we want to be regulated by Ofcom and the types we do not. As a result, it was decided to use secondary legislation to exempt Internet identifiers from the definition of "number". This approach also preserves flexibility for the future. Therefore this order excludes from the numbers to be treated as telephone numbers the following: Internet domain names, Internet addresses and identifiers based on domain names or Internet addresses.

We have not tried to define any of these terms because there is a wide degree of understanding about what they cover, whereas it has proved difficult to secure wide agreement on anything more specific.

Responding to the consultation I mentioned at the start of my speech, some of the operators asked about whether Ofcom plans to regulate intra-network routing codes within the BT network and the private network numbers. Officials at the DTI met with the operators to explain that Ofcom had no current plans to regulate such categories of numbers. If it was considered necessary to regulate these numbers at any point in the future, under the provisions of the Communications Act Ofcom would have to carry out a full public consultation on any extension of the areas of regulation in numbering, and any decision to extend these areas would be subject to a right of appeal. As I have said, such intervention would be subject to public consultation in accordance with the Communications Act. The operators were reassured that there were no plans for Ofcom to regulate these categories of numbers. I can repeat today that there are no plans for Ofcom to regulate these types of numbers.

We shall shortly be making a commencement order to enable Ofcom to be fully up and running on 29th December. This order needs to be in force on the same date to distinguish the types of numbering Ofcom will be able to regulate from those which it will not.

This order makes certain that both Ofcom and the industry have complete clarity in the future regulation of numbering in the UK. I commend the order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 3rd November be approved. [31st Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Evans of Temple Guiting. )

Baroness Miller of Hendon

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very clear explanation of the purpose of the order and for the helpful discussion that we had yesterday. Not only has this answered in advance many of the questions I might otherwise have had to ask, it has also shed considerable light on what he described as a quite straightforward order—which, indeed it is—but one which deals with what we both, as non-technical people, agree is a somewhat complex problem.

The complexity can be illustrated by the fact that in doing my own research for today, I discovered that in addition to my parliamentary e-mail address, I personally have not one but two domain names of my own which I hitherto thought were ordinary e-mail addresses. It seems that I am a dot.com —or, in fact, two dot.coms. Never mind that the addresses are exclusively mine, I have to keep a written note of what they are in case I am asked for them.

It is a welcome fact that Ofcom will regulate telephone numbers under Section 56 of the Communications Act 2003. That section is headed: The National Telephone Numbering Plan". If there had been such a regulator and such a numbering plan in recent years, perhaps we would not have been put to the trouble of two changes of telephone numbers in as many years, and perhaps London would have had a less confusing and arbitrary distribution of prefixes of north and south of the Thames rather than the imaginary inner and outer London. In the road where my house is, my telephone number begins with "07" whereas, a few doors away, my neighbours' begins with "08".

It is right that Ofcom should not have the power to regulate Internet-related numbers and domain names, although I noted the caveat in the Minister's speech when he said that this would apply "for the time being". The practical point is that much of what happens on the Internet is regulated on a voluntary basis by the industry, and especially by the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers based in the United Slates of America, as is so much of the Internet.

The United Kingdom associate, as the Minister has told us, is Nominet. If the Government or the regulator unreasonably tried to control that, it is quite likely that the whole name-allocating operation would be moved abroad and totally out of British jurisdiction.

I have some straightforward questions for the Minister. The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers—ICANN—was set up in California to enable the United States Government to move the management of the Internet domain name system into the private sector. Is the Minister able to tell us quis custodiet ipsos custodes—or, in this case, who manages the manager? If, as I suspect, it is the Federal Communications Commission, what input will Ofcom have with it if problems arise here. Indeed, what degree of supervision will be exercised, and by whom, over ICANN's British associate, Nominet, bearing in mind the Minister's subtle warning that the current arrangement, as I have already quoted, is "for the time being"?

Control of domain names is, to some extent, control of domains—and control of domains is a means of controlling Internet crime, which most certainly is not the responsibility of what really amounts to a self-regulating registry. Can the Minister give us a progress report on what the Government are doing to tackle Internet crime?

While Ofcom is currently to be divested of power to control domain names and Internet numbers, will the Minister please tell us what steps are being taken to protect children from unsuitable Internet content?

One of the problems experienced by potential owners of Internet sites is what is called cyber squatting— namely, the speculative registration of e-mail addresses and domain names by people who hope that the business with a genuine commercial interest in the name can be blackmailed into ransoming it back. It is probably right that those with technical skill and practical experience of the field are better placed to inhibit this type of modern piracy than what are essentially administrators. I say this with no disrespect to Ofcom and the regulator and his staff, who have more than enough to do taking over no fewer than five other regulatory bodies in just six weeks]" time, as the Minister has told us, on 29th December.

A few days ago, we debated spam. Only yesterday, Microsoft announced that it was designing software to counter what are called pop-ups and pop-unders, those irritating adverts that appear, unasked for, on our screens when we are on the Internet.

The Internet, all forms of electronic communication and telephone technology are evolving with bewildering speed, almost from day to day. It is welcome that, in the field we are discussing today, the Government are prepared to relinquish direct control of a commercial activity via one of their agencies, and are prepared to let the industry, using its technical know-how and ability to react speedily to any situation, regulate itself.

Finally, may I apologise to the House for my voice, which, inside my head, sounds like a squeak? We support the order.

Lord Razzall

My Lords, it might be useful if, in what would otherwise be a rather dry topic, someone could explain the substance of the order. It concerns whether or not the noble Baroness can have as her e-mail address "doreen@miller.net" or whether the Minister can have as his "matthew@evans.net". Probably in both cases they cannot. Perhaps they ought to change their names to "Razzall", which is a lot easier to register as a domain name than either "Evans" or "Miller".

The order is about what happens if there is confusion over "matthew@evans.net" or "doreen@miller.net", who regulates it and what happens if they want to use that name and cannot, or they think they can use that name and somebody else is using it.

I am entirely supportive of the Government's decision that this should not be regulated by Ofcom at present. There was an implied criticism from the noble Baroness that this was for the moment. I believe that it has to be for the moment because the current position under which this is regulated by the American organisation ICANN is regarded as not very satisfactory. I believe that the American Government regard the operation of ICANN as unsatisfactory and have put ICANN on notice that if it does not get its act together and improve the operation of the existing regulation, they will take steps to ensure that some other form of regulation is put in place. Obviously, the organisation is based in California and cannot be regulated by us, but it is important that the Government keep their flexibility. Will the Minister undertake that the situation will be kept under review and that, if the progress of reform of ICANN is not successful, the Government will recognise their obligation, not necessarily via Ofcom, to ensure that there is a better system of domain names in the UK?

The Earl of Erroll

My Lords, I did not realise that the debate would spread so widely. I begin with the subject of regulating Internet domain names and addresses, ISP addresses and ICANN. The Internet has grown up as a self-regulating network around the globe. It came out of an American Department of Defense initiative to make it possible to communicate after a nuclear attack, and expanded into the academic environment. It is organised and run by a lot of very good well-meaning people, so to those who like regulating and controlling it is slightly anarchic, in that it has simply developed—but it works.

I would hate to see the Internet suddenly subject to huge amounts of government regulation from different governments fighting power struggles for control over the Internet. It works, and we should let it get on with it, so I am delighted to see this statutory instrument saying that we are not going to interfere in it. It is a very good thing that we do not do so—I thoroughly approve of it.

I should tell the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who is worried about e-crime and all that sort of stuff—

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting

My Lords, I believe that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, may be referring to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller.

The Earl of Erroll

Sorry, my Lords, I am going mad.

I belong to a parliamentary group called EURIM that worries about e-crime and things like that. We are always looking for parliamentary monitors and people who are interested in such matters, so the noble Baroness might like to come along and find out about it. We are about to publish a paper on e-crime, what people should be doing about it and the implications for Parliament—what Parliament might do to help.

ICANN and other organisations have tackled cyber-squatting, and done a lot of work in that area; it is not as easy as it used to be. If there is a very good reason to do so, a domain name will be removed, and that has been so for a couple of years.

The bit of the regulation that interested me was that it covers only the Internet. I could not quite understand, given that Ofcom has said that it will not interfere with private network numbers, why it did not simply have another statutory instrument to say so. There is a statutory instrument saying clearly that it is not going to do so on the Internet and it has been said, verbally, on consultation, that it will not interfere in other areas —areas that could cause problems with equipment manufacturers as well as operators, because there will be internally allocated addresses on private networks. Why would it be thinking of regulating in that area? If it is really not thinking of doing so, why not say so publicly in a statutory instrument, which after all can always be reversed? I could not work out the thinking behind separating the Internet non-regulation from private network non-regulation. That was the only aspect of the legislation that struck me; otherwise, it is an excellent statutory instrument.

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting

My Lords, I should say that, however the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, feels, there was nothing wrong with her voice when she spoke so eloquently on the order.

I start with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, about what the order does. Perhaps I should restate that this is an order about telephone numbers, which says that the Internet is excluded from Ofcom's responsibility. We are not really talking about domain names, or whether "Miller" or "Evans" can be used. It is a fairly narrow order.

I do not believe that the noble Baroness was making a criticism when she said that the provision was what the Government were doing for the moment. The few words that she so cleverly spotted underline the Government's approach to the Internet. I hope to give the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, the assurance that he wants. We believe, as many other governments do, that the system should be unregulated for the moment, but that we must keep our eye on what is happening.

The front page of this morning's Herald Tribune, for example, has a news story about new technology. It states that new technology that is, being evaluated by phone operators in Europe. Asia and the United States promises to achieve what regulators and competition have so far failed to: drastically reduce mobile phone bills. The technology, which could be introduced next year, would allow people to scrap the separate phones they now use at home and at the office and instead rely on one portable phone and one number, regardless of where they are". in the world at the time. With that sort of development in new technology, it would be most unwise for any government to look at the scene and decide that they must regulate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, asked who managed the manager—who managed ICANN. It is a self-regulatory body, but the governmental advisory committee provides a framework for governments to give policy advice to ICANN in areas of public interest. Membership is open to all governments; in practice, some 80 have nominated representatives, and about half of those regularly attend meetings. The DTI represents the UK on the governmental advisory committee, so there is supervision on a regular basis.

The noble Baroness also asked who supervises Nominet. The organisation is subject to UK laws. In addition, as a membership organisation, it is directly answerable to many of the key UK stakeholders. Nominet is a self-regulatory body and, if it fails, the Government will have to step in—but there are absolutely no signs that it is failing.

The noble Baroness asked for a report on what the Government are doing to combat Internet crime. The Government apply UK online law in the same way as we apply offline law. The Obscene Publications Act 1959 applies to material published in the UK on the Internet, and the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 extends the laws on obscenity to cover material available on computer terminals. That is another area where we are vigilant and ensuring that, within the area of self-regulation, things are not going awry.

The noble Baroness asked what steps were being taken to protect children from Internet crime. As I have said, laws apply whether online or offline, but the Government recognise that there are particular problems with the international facet of the Internet and strongly support the measures taken by the industry to tackle potentially illegal material. The Internet Watch Foundation is a group set up and funded by the UK Internet service providers. It operates a successful hotline to which people can report potentially illegal material, and child pornography in particular. We are keeping a very close eye on the matter.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked why the order excluded Internet-related numbers but not other numbers not within the national telephone numbering plan. The Internet is very different from the ordinary telephone system, so unless there was a major regulatory shift, there would be no cause for Internet-related numbers even to be considered as telephone numbers for the purpose of the Communications Act. Numbers such as intranet network routing codes, on the other hand, are sufficiently similar to regulated telephone numbers for it to be possible that they might also need to be regulated at some time in future. As I have said, Ofcom has no plans to regulate them, and we would consult widely over a long period if we considered that they might need to be regulated.

I hope that answers all the questions. I am grateful to noble Lords who took part in the discussion. I commend the order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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