§ 3.12 p.m.
§ Lord Peyton of YeovilMy Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice, namely:
Whether Her Majesty's Government will repeat the Statement already given elsewhere by the Secretary of State for Transport on the decision not to proceed with the Crossrail project.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, the Government's decision remains as I stated in the Answer that I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, on 28th April. The Government continue to support Crossrail. There has been no decision not to proceed.
§ Lord Peyton of YeovilMy Lords, one has to be very grateful for that reassurance—the noble Lord is really saying that there was absolutely nothing in the report in The Times which indicated that the project is likely 951 to be postponed until 2020. I should just like to ask him whether he is aware of how grateful your Lordships were for the nugget of information that he released in the course of his Answer—that, after all the talk, reports, consultation and consultants, a final business plan will be available in July. However, what I should really like to know is this. Why was he not in a position to add something of what must have been in the Secretary of State's mind?
I should like, if I may, to introduce into this air of timelessness an air of topicality. In view of the report today that the Prime Minister is prepared to support the Olympic Gaines for 2012, he should be aware of the fact that although he can have Crossrail without the Olympics, he cannot have the Olympics without Crossrail.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I repeat what I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby. The Government cannot be responsible for the way in which journalists interpret what they hear or what they think they hear. Let me explain what happened. On the day after I answered a Question about Crossrail in this House, the Secretary of State was addressing the Social Market Foundation on a totally different subject. On the way out, he was waylaid by journalists, quite legitimately, and he made five points about Crossrail: that the Government supported it in principle; that it would cost £10 billion to £15 billion to build; that we would have to consider how to fund it; that if London and the South East continued to grow, we would need an east-west link; and that no decision had been made on whether a hybrid Bill was required.
Not a single thing that I said was in conflict with anything that the Secretary of State subsequently said. Even if something that the Secretary of State said was in conflict and I had known about it in advance, looking back at the time when the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, was Minister of Transport and then Minister of Transport Industries, would he have been happy to have his junior Ministers—the noble Lords, Lord Heseltine and Lord Kelvedon, or Lady Young and Lord Sandford—giving advance notice of things that he was going to say the next day as Secretary of State?
§ Lord MarshMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the interesting thing about why the Secretary of State did not give advance notice is that he did not have the faintest idea that he was going to say it? As the Minister rightly says, the Secretary of State came out of a conference on a totally different subject, spoke to an experienced journalist and made the off-the-cuff comments which were picked up. Does the Minister agree that it is not surprising that such a statement on a £15 billion project—which is itself an integral part of a £110 billion project—had a degree of sensitivity about it? Perhaps the Minister could have a chat with his colleague about taking these matters a bit more seriously. Secondly, as I asked him on the previous occasion, is he still satisfied with the way in which the management of these interdependent, massive projects is being carried out?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, in his second question the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, is going way beyond the subject of the Private Notice Question. Perhaps—in order to be helpful to the House as always—I was being a little too helpful about what the Secretary of State said. The important point as regards this Private Notice Question is that, the day after I answered Questions in the House, the Secretary of State said nothing which was in conflict with what I said and made no new announcement of the kind which is not implied but stated in the Question.
Lord BerkeleyMy Lords, I think that I was the only Member of your Lordships' House who was at that conference and heard the Secretary of State. It might be helpful if I say that, although the subject was discussed, nothing that was said would contravene what my noble friend said in the House a day or two before. The only question was whether some finance could be raised from other sources such as gains in property value. I am very surprised to hear the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, which indicates that the Secretary of State is reported to have said something completely different after the conference.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyPrecisely, my Lords.
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, is not the reason why my noble friend Lord Peyton gets so exercised about these matters that, time after time, particularly as regards the Department for Transport, we see announcements being made outside Parliament, very often when Ministers themselves have not been properly briefed? What is the noble Lord doing to ensure that this House is properly informed before statements are made in public outside?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has any evidence of statements being made outside by the Department for Transport before Parliament has been informed and on which Ministers are not properly briefed. I have no doubt that he will let me know.