HL Deb 24 March 2003 vol 646 cc457-9

2.51 p.m.

Baroness Walmsley asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have any plans to amend the remit of the heavy goods operator's licence to enable overall traffic impact to be taken into consideration.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, we believe that local authorities are best placed to deal with planning and local traffic matters, and that their current powers are sufficient. They may also object to traffic commissioners against applications for goods vehicle operators' licences. When deciding such applications, traffic commissioners have wide powers, including the consideration of the suitability of the operating centre itself and any exit or entrance leading from a public road. We have no plans to amend the existing licensing system.

Baroness Walmsley

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer, but is he aware that once a licence has been granted, the local authority has no power in the matter? Will he accept that we have a democratic deficit, as the law does not allow elected representatives of the local community to have any say in proposals to vary the terms of a licence? For example, is he aware that, in the town of Alsager in my area, the town council is being told that it has no power at all in the matter, even though a recent proposal to vary the terms of a licence will actually double the heavy goods traffic on the B road through the town?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, surely an issue of that kind should be dealt with by the local authority's own powers. It can make traffic regulation orders to stop heavy lorries using unsuitable roads by imposing weight or dimension restrictions. That is how a local authority can avoid an addition of heavy traffic. It should not and could not be done through the heavy vehicle operator's licence. Of course, there is a provision for a review of such licences every five years and, on those occasions, local authorities have the same say. I should add that local authorities can appeal to the Transport Tribunal against decisions of the traffic commissioners.

Lord Bradshaw

My Lords, is the Minister aware that although the regulations allow the traffic commissioners to take into account the question of exit and entrance to a road, they cannot take into consideration the suitability of the road because it is the public highway and assumed to be suitable? Would he consider amending the powers of the traffic commissioners so that they may take into account the whole of the route over which a lorry will pass? That is what affects people, and that is the matter about which people are complaining.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, what noble Lords are asking for is a duplication of controls. The traffic commissioners obviously have responsibility for the technical aspects of vehicle operation. They also have responsibility for the operating centre, which is where the vehicles are kept, leave from in the morning and go back to when they have finished work. However, everything else that the noble Lord wants can be controlled by traffic regulation orders, which are the responsibility of local authorities.

Surely a liberal democratic party ought at least to believe in local autonomy, and say that the issue should continue to be under local democratic control rather than under the control of appointed traffic commissioners. I am astonished at the idea that the situation should be called a democratic deficit.

Lord Bradshaw

My Lords—

Noble Lords

Oh!

Lord Bradshaw

My Lords, matters are in fact under the control of local authorities, but it is up to the police to enforce them. They have to follow a lorry for the whole distance restricted, which is absolutely impossible given that police resources are at present so overstretched.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I did not hear a question.