§ 3.10 p.m.
§ Lord Aveburyasked Her Majesty's Government:
What matters were discussed between the Baroness Amos and the leaders of Angola, Cameroon and Guinea during her recent visit to those countries.
§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)My Lords, during her visit to Africa on 25th to 28th February, my noble friend Lady Amos met President Conte of Guinea, President dos Santos of Angola and President Biya of Cameroon. She discussed the disarmament of Iraq in accordance with UNSCR 1441 and the latest proposal for a second resolution. She also discussed a range of other matters, including regional issues. The noble Baroness returned to the region last night to continue discussions with the three countries concerned in the light of the evolving situation.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, did the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, make it clear to her interlocutors that, when we say that we must reserve our position in the event that a second resolution proves unattainable, in plain English that means that Britain intends to go to war irrespective of what happens in the Security Council? What sort of an example do the Government think that that sets to those countries in terms of the collective maintenance of world order?
Secondly, the noble Baroness said unprompted yesterday that she did not believe that her noble friend Lady Amos would try to induce support for a new resolution through unwarranted pressure. What kind of pressure or inducement does she think we ought to exert? Have any assurances been given to those countries that we would soft-pedal on their performance in relation to transparency, corruption and good governance? In particular, have we said anything to Angola about getting her back into the good books of the IMF without signing up to a full transparency programme?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord's question, no, she did 1236 not. The premise of that part of the question is incorrect. The noble Lord, because he has taken part in our discussions on the matter, will know that the Government are pursuing a case for a second resolution in the United Nations. As I explained to noble Lords only yesterday, those negotiations continue.
In response to the second part of the question, my noble friend would never suggest soft-pedalling on parts of human rights issues in return for anything. Nor, if I may say so before I am asked the question, would she dream of saying anything about the withholding or increasing of aid or such inducement. The fact is that my noble friend is pursuing the issue on the force of argument that the Government believe to be wholly correct.
§ Lord ReaMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Security Council is equivalent to a jury in the settlement of international disputes? Am I not right in thinking that it is a punishable offence to attempt to influence a jury member?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, again, I do not agree with the premise of the question. The Security Council is not equivalent to a jury. If it were a jury, the situation might well be as the noble Lord says. But we are dealing with partners. We are co-sponsors of a United Nations Security Council resolution. It is entirely right that we argue our case as clearly and coherently as we can without any unwarranted pressures brought to bear, as I said yesterday, but relying on the strength of our argument, which is very strong.
§ The Earl of ListowelMy Lords, did the Minister's noble friend find time to raise with President dos Santos of Angola the need for a coherent public health strategy to prevent HIV/AIDS becoming rampant in Angola as it has done in the rest of southern Africa? Does she not agree that it would be a tragedy if effective interventions now were overlooked because of other immediate priorities such as Iraq or demobilisation and demining?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I cannot say whether my noble friend raised that issue. There are a number of humanitarian issues with all the countries concerned. The United Kingdom has aid projects, some directly with Angola and Cameroon, and with Guinea through the UNHCR. All those matters are important. In her work through NePAD, my noble friend engages on the question of HIV/AIDS in Africa.
§ Lord Howell of GuildfordMy Lords. further to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, if, despite the undoubted persuasive powers and assiduity of the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, which all noble Lords admire, a second resolution proves unattainable, can the Minister confirm—this is very important—that any action that unfortunately necessitated force would be within international law, 1237 that it would be authorised under UN Resolution 1441, and that that is the advice that Law Officers have given the Government?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, as the noble Lord will know, I shall not comment on what Law Officers may or may not say. I shall confirm what I said yesterday: any military action undertaken by Her Majesty's Government will be legal.
§ Lord JuddMy Lords, in her discussions with those governments and others has the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, raised the issue of the interpretation given yesterday by the Secretary-General of the United Nations that to take military action without the authority of the Security Council would raise profound issues about the legitimacy of that action?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I am sure that the matters that my noble friend is discussing will touch upon the legality of any action in the event of there not being a second Security Council resolution. I am also sure that my noble friend will discuss the shortcomings of Iraq, a point that some noble Lords have overlooked in putting questions to me. The main point of my noble friend's visit is to pursue the purpose of the second Security Council resolution. We are talking to our partners on the Security Council. I am bound to say to noble Lords that I think that it would be entirely irresponsible were my noble friend not out there pursuing the case at this difficult time.