§ 3.2 p.m.
§ Baroness Seccombeasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether, on enlargement of the European Union, access for eastern Europeans to Britain's benefit system can be restricted by introducing a qualifying period.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey)No, my Lords. From the date of accession, people from the acceding states who move to the United Kingdom or any other member state will be subject to the same qualifying rules for social security benefits which apply to all EU citizens. Discrimination on grounds of nationality will not be permitted.
§ Baroness SeccombeMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, why was not the Government's research and analysis on this sensitive matter published before the accession Bill was before another place? Can we be assured that all the facts will be available before we debate it next week? Can he say on what basis the Government decided not to impose a two or seven-year qualifying period?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I cannot be responsible for the fact that Mr Letwin, and indeed apparently the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, have misunderstood the facts, which have always been clear. Right from the beginning there has never been any doubt that member states cannot impose a qualifying period for social security benefits. I understand the confusion in some people's minds between that and the ability to work, where a qualifying period is possible, but it is not our responsibility that some people insist on misunderstanding the position.
§ Earl RussellMy Lords, will the Minister confirm that this point was exhaustively covered during the discussions on the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill? Will he further confirm that, according to 292 Eurostat statistics, British benefits are below the European average and are therefore not quite so attractive as some may hope and others may fear?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, the combination of the noble Earl's elephantine memory and his involvement in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act, neither of which I share, lead me to believe that he must be right on the first point that he makes. As for benefits, I am sure that the thrust of what he says is right. However, clearly there are differences in different benefit levels in different member states. To generalise, I think, would be unwise.
§ Lord HigginsMy Lords, I remain absolutely astonished at the noble Lord's versatility on these issues. However, as concern was expressed in another place about a lack of information on these issues, may I inquire what further information will be provided with regard to the cost of social security benefits? Can he tell us now which social security benefits will be available to those coming from eastern Europe to this country and which will not?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I am grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. Of course he will know that I am here because my noble friend Lady Hollis has an appointment with her eye consultant this afternoon. I am sure that we all wish her well.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, on the question of costs, I am sure that all the information will be available. On the question of which social security benefits apply to all EU citizens, I referred in my initial Answer to the qualifying rules. Of course the qualifying rules include the habitual residence test which was introduced, in 1994, into income support, housing and council tax benefit and, from 1996, into income-based jobseeker's allowance. That is specifically to deal with those whose main purpose in coming to the United Kingdom is to claim benefits.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourIf I may, my Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord a question on a particularly sensitive issue. In the eastern European countries there are large numbers of Romany people, many of whom have a hard time in their home countries and for whom free movement westwards in the European Union may prove very attractive indeed. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government are taking account in assessing their future benefit costs of the possible increase in the number of asylum seekers who may come from that quarter?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyYes, my Lords, of course we are doing that. At the same time, however, the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, will be aware that there has been very considerable pressure, particularly on the Czech Republic, Slovakia and, indeed, 293 Hungary, to improve the conditions of Roma people in their countries as part of the process of accession to the European Union. There have been some successes in that area, although I am sure nothing like enough yet.
§ Lord HigginsMy Lords, perhaps I may join the noble Lord in wishing the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, well in the light of the circumstances that he described.
Do the Government have any estimate of the total cost to the British taxpayer in, say, each of the next five years of the changes envisaged under the accession treaty?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, we do not have an estimate of the cost, but there are estimates of the numbers concerned. Research carried out by the former Department for Education and Employment estimated a range of between 55,000 and 278,000 migrants from the new member states per year across the whole of the European Union after accession. Extrapolating down, and bearing in mind the fact that 80 per cent of those nationals from the new member states are in Germany and Austria, the total flows to the United Kingdom could be in the range of 3,000 to 14,000 per annum. It will be seen, therefore, that the costs are not going to be extravagant.
§ The Countess of MarMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that we should not always regard migrants as a burden on our society and that many of them come with great entrepreneurial assets and make a great contribution? I think particularly of those who came from East Africa and the Indian subcontinent who have proved to be invaluable to our country.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I agree very strongly with that. I think that these people from the acceding countries should be welcomed and treated as friends. Indeed, it is for exactly that reason that the United Kingdom has decided not to seek a qualifying period for citizens of those countries to come here as workers. It will be known that some of the member states are imposing qualifying periods. We, like five other members states, have decided not to do so. We believe that it is to our economic and social advantage to have those people in this country. That view, I may say, is shared by the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress.