Defence Exports Scrutiny Committee (Hansard, 10 June 2003)

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
asked Her Majesty's Government:
What proposals they have to establish a defence exports scrutiny committee.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of Turville)
My Lords, during the passage of the then Export Control Bill, the Government were unable to accept my noble friend's proposal for a defence exports scrutiny committee to undertake prior scrutiny of export licence application. The Secretary of State has therefore not put forward any proposals, but inter-departmental discussions are taking place to see whether we can take additional steps to achieve greater accountability and transparency in the export licensing process.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, the discussions have gone on for 12 months and nothing has happened. Does my noble friend recall that 311 elected Members of Parliament in another place supported the Motion calling for the committee to be set up? Why can we not have more rapid decision-taking on such matters?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, the discussions have been taken forward by the Cabinet Office. We should be able to report on them in the summer.

§ Lord Redesdale
My Lords, do the Government believe that there should be wider scrutiny of the global defence trade? Do they have any policy on the offset trade that is part of most arms deals today?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, as I said, we are keen to see greater transparency and accountability in the process. That is why we are having the discussions. Offset is a different issue that needs to be considered in a different way.

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords. the Minister talked about greater transparency, which I am sure that everyone wants in all kinds of deals. However, does he agree that there would be a risk to the commercial confidentiality of potential purchasers as 118 well as of exporters? It would need to be handled very carefully to make sure that they did not take their business elsewhere.

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, when we turned the proposal for a defence exports scrutiny committee down during our discussions on the then Export Control Bill, we gave three main reasons why we did not think it appropriate. The third was that there was a danger that it would give rise to legal difficulties, cause delay and possibly compromise confidentiality without necessarily improving the quality of decisions. That was a key consideration.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, do the Government accept that the record is somewhat depressing? Have we not seen too often weapons and ammunition that we have exported used against either civilian populations or even our own military forces?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, everyone agrees that the control of arms is extremely difficult. However, I do not think that our record is depressing. On the whole, there has been very close control in what are difficult circumstances.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, are any defence export orders outstanding for Indonesia? In view of the fact that the Indonesian Government have refused to give an undertaking that it will not use the Hawks and Scorpions with which we supplied them in the past in the civil conflict in Aceh, will the Government not consider some means whereby Parliament can scrutinise the orders outstanding for that country?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, I am not aware of what discussions are taking place, and I will write to the noble Lord on that point. However, I should point out that the discussions are confidential until an export licence is given or not.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, my noble friend will know that the Quadripartite Select Committee in another place, which has a great interest in such matters, recently produced a further report. What does he think of its latest findings on the recommendation that was made last year?

§ Lord Sainsbury of Turville
My Lords, I am afraid to say that I have not read the report in great detail. I will go back and read it very carefully and give my noble friend an answer.