HL Deb 14 July 2003 vol 651 cc628-30

3.5 p.m.

Lord Goodhart asked Her Majesty's Government:

Why they believe that the disclosure of information relating to occasions on which Ministers have reported to their private secretaries potential conflicts of interest under the Ministerial Code of Conduct would be contrary to the public interest.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, under the terms of the ministerial code, Ministers are required, on appointment to each new office, to provide their Permanent Secretary with a full list in writing of all interests which might be thought to give rise to a conflict. The Government believe that personal information provided by Ministers to their Permanent Secretaries which should not otherwise be made public—for example, in the register of Members' interests—should be treated in confidence. However, the full detail of what has been disclosed and how it has been dealt with must be disclosed on request to the ombudsman. The notice issued prevents her making it public but she is able to express publicly any concerns that she has about what has been done. The decision to issue a notice in this case was taken on the grounds that the release of such personal, private information to the public would not be in the public interest.

Lord Goodhart

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Wicks committee which recently proposed that there should be a register of ministerial interests open to the public. Members of Parliament and Members of your Lordships' House have to make disclosure of any interests which might be regarded as conflicting with their parliamentary duties and have to declare further interests during the course of debates, and those declarations are duly recorded in Hansard. What is the public interest in concealing from the public the occasions when Ministers have recorded in writing to their Permanent Secretaries possible conflicts of interest and the action taken by them as a result? Is it not doubly important that Ministers who, unlike ordinary Members of either House, have genuine decision-taking powers should be required to disclose conflicts of interest that might affect their duties as Ministers?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, paragraph 115 of the ministerial code requires Ministers, on appointment to each new office, to provide their Permanent Secretaries with a full list in writing of their private interests. This is a new requirement, introduced for the first time in July 2001. These declarations can be of an extremely personal nature—for example, providing details of an individual's mortgage arrangements, bank account details and so on. If there is no conflict, why should that confidential matter be disclosed in relation to the Minister? The ombudsman is able to look at the relationship between the Permanent Secretary and the Minister in that regard, so he or she can check that there has been fair play. All that has happened is that a notice has been served on the ombudsman making it impossible for her to make public what is disclosed to her. That seems to be the appropriate way of ensuring proper disclosure and proper protection for the Minister.

The Earl of Northesk

My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord confirm that the Parliamentary Ombudsman, in her own words, had no choice but to discontinue her investigations into this matter and others because of a lack of co-operation? Where is the Government's much vaunted transparency and accountability given this shoddy state of affairs?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I can confirm that that is what she said. The effect of the certificates issued was simply to keep confidential private information about Ministers that was not required to be published in any other context—for example, in the register of Members' interests. That material was disclosed to the ombudsman and she was able to make such comment as she thought fit without disclosing the contents of that information.

Baroness Wilcox

My Lords, can the Minister tell us when the Government intend to revise the ministerial code, especially in the wake of informed criticisms from distinguished, recent, past Ministers from his own Benches in another place?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I refer to the amendments introduced immediately after the last election in 2001. They refer to a heavy requirement on Ministers to provide their Permanent Secretaries with a full list in writing of their private interests. I do not believe that any amendment is required to that.

Earl Russell

My Lords, is it an accurate summary of the Minister's first Answer referring to the ombudsman that it has been disclosed; that it has been disclosed and that it has been disclosed? Is that not the sort of procedure that whets the appetite of any professional journalist?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, it would not be an accurate account of my first Answer. The right balance to strike is proper confidentiality, but making sure that there is proper monitoring of the processes. That is what the arrangements allow for.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil

My Lords, not having any prospect myself of ever becoming a Minister again, perhaps I may ask the noble and learned Lord if he would not deplore the tendency to sew suspicion and to make it obvious that Ministers are mistrusted? One of the problems in our country is that we have destroyed, or are on the way to destroying, trust.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I join with the House in expressing our deep great regret that the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, will never be a Minister again, which is a great loss to the nation. As far as the second matter is concerned, the greater the trust in Ministers and other politicians the better for the nation.