Fire Service (Hansard, 29 January 2003)

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the Government are committed to modernising the Fire Service along the lines of Sir George Bain's independent review. We intend to restore a power for the Government to direct pay and conditions in the Fire Service. That means that we shall be able to impose a settlement if it proves necessary to do so. We hope that it will not. The Government will respond in full to the Bain review in a White Paper later this year.

§ Lord Renton of Mount Harry
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. As we have all done, I studied carefully the Statement made yesterday by the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Prescott. I welcome Mr Prescott's Pauline conversion. Although it has taken a long time, his decision to seek emergency powers to settle the pay for the Fire Brigades Union is right.
However, will not the legislative process take at least some weeks? Given that the Armed Forces are now stretched to the limit, would it not be sensible, if a negotiated settlement has not been reached within a week or two, to consider seeking a court injunction for emergency powers to stop the strike?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the issue of court injunctions is entirely a matter for the Attorney-General. It must be right that he gives that matter independent consideration. We welcome the noble Lord's support for the measures announced yesterday. Although it is true that they will take some weeks to introduce, we intend to ensure that they are in place in 1125 weeks rather than months, so that they can have some bearing on the outcome of this most unfortunate and regrettable dispute.

§ Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, the Minister will know that the employers supported the Deputy Prime Minister's Statement yesterday. That is not surprising, given that the negotiation has been tripartite and confusing. Is the Minister aware that the Bain review recommends, that the Local Government Association … take steps to develop the contribution of elected members on fire authorities and to ensure that they give stronger leadership in the future"? Does not the Deputy Prime Minister's Statement indicate a centralising approach? How does it square with Sir George Bain's recommendation?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, there might be some merit in what the noble Baroness said if it were not that Sir Jeremy Beecham, who is after all the chairman of the Local Government Association, gave the Deputy Prime Minister's announcement yesterday his fulsome support. That speaks volumes about where the employers are: they are at one with the Government in seeking to resolve matters and entirely agree with the steps that the Government announced yesterday.

§ Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, if the Government are fully committed to a solution along the lines of the Bain report, would they not be well advised to suggest to the local authority employers that they give notice that if there are any further strikes, all the striking firemen will be dismissed and offered immediate re-employment individually on Bain terms, and that any subsequent vacancies will be filled by recruitment? After all, President Reagan did something similar more than 20 years ago with the air traffic controllers in the United States and it worked extremely successfully.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that is an interesting notion, but I doubt that it bears much relation to the reality of the situation. Obviously we must protect fundamental rights; the right to withdraw labour is one of those rights. On the other hand, we have a duty to ensure that public safety is paramount and protected. That is why the Deputy Prime Minister yesterday announced what I consider to be a balanced and measured set of proposals to try to bring a conclusion to this unfortunate and regrettable dispute.

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a long history of politicians and governments getting involved in trade union negotiations? Although the Government must pick up the tab, trade union negotiations are best conducted between employers and employees, who must live with each other at the end of the day.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that is what the Deputy Prime Minister has been seeking to encourage 1126 during the past few months. He has prosecuted his case extremely well. It is absolutely right that employers and unions must sit round a table to hammer things out. The measures announced yesterday are an encouragement to that process.

§ Lord Dixon
My Lords, will my noble friend not take too much notice of advice from those on the Opposition Benches on dealing with trade union matters? I served for many hours with the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry. during the passage of the Trade Union Act 1984. His claim to fame then was as chairman of the Association of Conservative Trade Unionists. I suggest that my noble friend takes more notice of the point made yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about the official solicitor. Many of us know what happens when governments try to impose conditions on striking workers.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, my noble friend speaks volumes about how we ought to try to proceed in these matters: with care and caution to ensure that the unions and employers work together to conclude effective collective solutions. That is the best way forward; that is what we are trying to encourage; the Deputy Prime Minister wants matters to proceed in that manner.

§ Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords—

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords—

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the noble Baroness has given way at least twice. I think that it is her turn.

§ Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, is there really a sense of urgency in trying to sort this lot out? The Deputy Prime Minister's Statement yesterday gave one the feeling that action was being taken, but in his Answer the Minister said that a White Paper considering the Bain proposals would be issued later this year. The Bain proposals have been published for weeks now. Why have the Government not yet done something about them? There must be squads of people who could conduct the analysis and prepare a White Paper, which would make it much easier to set the pay of British firefighters in future.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, it is right that we try to hasten the conclusion of the discussions to resolve the pay dispute. The modernisation package is a longer-term issue and the proposals that will no doubt be made in the White Paper must take into account the finer detail of what was, after all, a comprehensive report. I have no doubt that that will happen, but we must concentrate our efforts on settling the pay dispute. As part of that, Bain, modernisation and the White Paper will be part of a whole package.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, has the Minister noted the reservations expressed by the 1127 general secretary elect of the Trades Union Congress, the general secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union and the general secretary of Unison? In the light of those reservations, do the Government plan to meet the TUC and other union officials who are concerned about yesterday's announcement?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I understand that there are regular liaison meetings about all those issues. No doubt they will have a bearing on the outcome. Of course we take careful note of what is said in public debate on the matter, but the Government remain resolute in seeking to ensure a proper solution to the tire dispute. We urge the FBU to get round the table with the employers, return to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service and ensure that proper negotiations are conducted so that this unfortunate dispute can be drawn to a conclusion.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, does the Minister agree that time is of the essence and that if disruption continues the Government will have no option but to bring forward emergency legislation? If not, does the noble Lord agree that arbitration independent of the Government would be a far more acceptable means of resolution than any imposed by decree of the Government?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, we have an adequate arbitration system through ACAS and the Government are happy to rely on that. It has worked effectively for many years. It certainly worked effectively when the party of which the noble Lord is a member was in government. We shall rely on that process and hope that the FBU and the employers will use it to ensure a satisfactory outcome to the current dispute.