Secondary Schools (Hansard, 8 January 2003)

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
asked Her Majesty's Government:
What assessment they have made of the standards in non-grammar schools in local education authority areas where selection for secondary schools takes place.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Baroness Ashton of Upholland)
My Lords, the department has not undertaken this comparative assessment. However, we are aware of research by others which suggests that at GCSE pupils who attend non-selective schools in selective areas are out-performed by those who had similar key stage 3 results and attend comprehensive schools in non-selective areas. We continue to note any conclusions that are reached.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords. I thank my noble friend for that reply. As she is aware, for many years the Labour Party and Labour governments have said that selection at 11 years of age is wrong for a number of reasons. Indeed, she made that remark herself not too long ago in the Chamber. One of the main reasons is that often those who are not selected are quite capable of undertaking what we might call the "grammar school course". What happens to those children? Can she confirm that in some areas of the country parental choice is the only criterion of a system that is manifestly unfair? Is it not a serious misjudgment that a child's education and progress should be so handicapped when the Government's frequently stated policy is cast aside?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, the Labour Party and the Government have been very clear in ensuring that we do not wish to see further grammar schools. I reiterate what I have said previously in your Lordships' House. Our concern in this matter was of the number of children not allowed to pursue the quality of education that was offered within the grammar school system in days gone by. What we now have is a schools system where every child is moving towards being able to achieve his full potential and in many schools is already able to achieve his full potential. We want to ensure that every school gives the best opportunity to every child. It is true that in schools where we still have selection in certain areas we offer that opportunity. It is also true that our own figures show that in comprehensive schools children from the brightest groups do better than they do in grammar schools.

§ Lord Pilkington of Oxenford
My Lords, is the Minister prepared to congratulate Kent County 1013 Council on providing a variety of schools? It has a selective system that caters for children of different abilities—vocational, academic and so on. Are the Government prepared, as they award Beacon excellence to grammar schools and some of the Kent vocational schools, to accept that that is an alternative? Is the Minister prepared to accept Professor Jesson's evidence, which has been seriously questioned in a number of academic journals?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, as the noble Lord has referred to Professor Jesson, I shall do the House a service by reporting on what he actually said. He was commissioned to look at the structure and performance of secondary education in Kent. The major findings of his report were that grammar schools in Kent and Medway do less well and are performing at lower levels than other grammar schools in the country and that secondary modern schools show similar, if less pronounced, characteristics.
In looking at whether I should congratulate a local education authority, I think it is absolutely pertinent to ask whether we think that we can support that education authority to achieve better outcomes for all its children. That is entirely what the department would wish to do. So I am quite clear that if Professor Jesson's research is correct—I have no reason to believe otherwise—we need to support Kent to ensure that it is able to do the best it possibly can. I am sure that all the political leaders and officials in Kent are very keen to do that. Indeed, I know that they are.

§ Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, in view of the research done by David Jesson and others, does the Minister agree that the best system is a good comprehensive school in which the special needs of children at both ends of the ability spectrum are well catered for and well resourced?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, as I said, we know that children at the upper end of the band do better—marginally better—in comprehensive schools. We also know that, generally, a well delivered comprehensive education delivers for all the children. That is a cornerstone of the Government's policy, so I agree with the noble Baroness that it is important that we offer that breadth and quality of education to every child.
There are still some grammar schools. We have made our policy towards them clear with the parental ballot, and we still believe that that is the right way to go. We work with all schools to ensure that, whether one lives and raises a child in a selective or nonselective area, the quality of education that the child will receive is the highest that it can be.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the most extensive and detailed research done in Great Britain and Northern Ireland is that done by Dr Marks'? Dr Marks concludes that selection is better for all pupils, not just those selected to attend grammar schools. The average advantage is about 25 per cent at GCSE. 'The good overall performance of the selective 1014 system is, in part, due to the good performance of pupils at the widely underrated secondary modern schools. That is most evident in Northern Ireland, where the system is entirely selective. There, education results are well ahead of those in the rest of the United Kingdom—by 30 per cent, at least.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, Dr Marks provides important evidence. In part, that is why, in my Answer, I said that we continued to note conclusions. There is different evidence, and, often, the issue is whether the evidence can be used to make genuine comparisons. I mean no criticism of any of the research by that, but, often, when we examine the research, it is difficult to see the comparators in the way that noble Lords might want.
It is clear that the provision of the highest quality education must be paramount. From the evidence that we have, we believe that we provide that best through a comprehensive system that is high quality and looks to meet the needs of all children. That is what we will continue to do.

§ Lord Pilkington of Oxenford
My Lords, Professor Jesson has a knighthood, so he has done rather well. However, the Minister did not answer my question. Professor Jesson's research has been seriously questioned in at least three academic journals. Is the department aware of that questioning?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords., we continue to consider all research and the questioning of all research. That is why I said that we look to ensure that the comparators are equal. We know that Professor Jesson examined 15 selective areas, although we would recognise only 10 of those as being within our criteria. That is an important point.
I am more concerned about Ofsted reports, which help us to ensure that we have high quality education. In view of this debate, noble Lords will understand why that is an essential part of our evaluation of schools.