HL Deb 27 February 2003 vol 645 cc416-8
Baroness Perry of Southwark

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they consider that an amendment is needed to the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 to remove the exemption of the Church of England from the provisions of the Act.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, Section 19 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 exempts organised religions in the case of employment that is restricted to one sex to comply with doctrine or to avoid offending the religious susceptibilities of a significant number of the followers of that religion. There are currently no plans to amend Section 19. However, we shall continue to keep the law as it applies to the Church of England under review, in the light of developments in European Union law.

Baroness Perry of Southwark

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply; it was not entirely unexpected. Does he agree that it is extraordinary that, in a country that has a good record on anti-discrimination legislation, the national Church—the established Church—is still able to deny to women the right not only to be promoted but to hold any of the many posts that are still advertised with the words "No woman need apply".

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I am interested in the noble Baroness's question. Her original Question went wider than the question of the employment of women priests, and I took it to relate to the employment status of all priests, men or women. The details of the spread—if that is the right word—of unemployment of women priests are a separate issue, which was resolved in the Church of England by the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure 1993.

The Lord Bishop of Blackburn

My Lords, will the Minister join me in sending greetings to Archbishop Rowan Williams at this moment of his enthronement in Canterbury Cathedral?

Noble Lords

Hear, hear.

The Lord Bishop of Blackburn

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the standing committee of the House of Bishops of the Church of England has indicated to the General Synod on more than one occasion that it agrees that there should be a review of the arrangements made by the legislation on women priests, once the Synod has received the final report of the working party of the House of Bishops on women in the episcopate and has decided what action to take on it? Does he agree that, in reviewing those arrangements, the Church will have to take account of the need not only to ensure fair and proper treatment for its women priests but to consider the position of those—including many women—who cannot, at this time, accept that ministry in conscience?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I am happy to join the right reverend Prelate in extending greetings to the new Archbishop of Canterbury. We look forward to welcoming him to the House on, I think, 12th March.

We are aware of the working party. It has wider terms of reference and covers issues such as freehold. I understand that there is an undertaking to report to the Synod and to have decisions made not later than 2006.

Baroness Richardson of Calow

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is rather odd that the Church of England "by law established" should be from law exempt? Will he urge the Government to lean more heavily on the Church of England to consider the experience of other Churches—not least those in the Anglican communion—of the leadership of women?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, as an unbeliever, I am the last person to comment on issues between and within the Churches in this country. As far as the Government are concerned, the issue is not the internal organisation of the Church of England, established by law or not, but whether the conditions under which priests in any Church, whether women or men, are engaged—I cannot use the word "employed"—conforms to our legislation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Richardson of Calow, knows, the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 deliberately excluded the Churches, and we have no plans to change that status.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, there is still political involvement in the appointment of bishops, although it may not last for ever. Bearing that in mind, does my noble friend agree that the comment on the "Today" programme this morning by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford about seeing the appointment of the first women bishops within five years is welcome? If they were appointed earlier than that, many of us would welcome it.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I have two alternative answers to that. The first is that it does not follow from the Question on the Order Paper, and the second is that it is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill

My Lords, I was partly responsible for the exemption in Section 19 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 as a matter of policy. I am surprised by the Minister's Answer, to which I listened carefully. Does not the Equal Treatment Amendment Directive of 2002 require the Government to make regulations? Will it not be necessary, in order to comply with the directive, to narrow the broad exception in Section 19 in respect of employment and occupation in the Church of England, as elsewhere? Will the Government consult on the regulations with regard to that issue?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the Sex Discrimination Act implements the Equal Treatment Directive, but it is true, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, said, that there have been amendments to the directive. The amendments cover a wider range of occupations, and we are taking legal advice on the matter. It is not yet clear whether the wider range of occupations covers the occupations relevant to the Question. If it appears that legislative changes are necessary, we will, of course, consult widely, as the noble Lord would wish.