§ 8.21 p.m.
§ Lord Williams of Mostyn rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 19th December 2002 be approved.
§ The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the main purpose of the order is to enhance and extend the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland and to reorganise public audit of the health 758 service and local government there. The order introduces three main measures. First, the Comptroller and Auditor General is made auditor of health service bodies in Northern Ireland, and those engaged in local government audit are transferred to the employment of the Northern Ireland Audit Office. Secondly, the Comptroller and Auditor General is given power to access documents from third parties relating to statutory audits or value for money studies of public bodies. Thirdly, the Comptroller and Auditor General is made statutory auditor of a number of executive NDPBs of which he was not formerly the auditor.
§ There was extensive public consultation in Northern Ireland. The results indicate support for the proposals. The provisions were the policy of the Northern Ireland Executive. Prior to suspension—this echoes what was said earlier—the former Audit and Accountability (Northern Ireland) Bill had passed the second stage of its passage through the Assembly. The Bill received a unanimous welcome from all speakers in that debate, including the chairmen of the Finance and Personnel Committee and the Audit Committee. The chairman of the Audit Committee spoke also in his capacity as a member of the Public Accounts Committee. Those committees had already had opportunity to have input into the proposals, and had done so.
§ The order's provisions generally are largely in line with the United Kingdom Government's response to the recommendations of the Sharman report. Where it differs marginally from those provisions, it does so only to reflect the concerns of the Northern Ireland Executive, Members of the Assembly and its committees. The provisions will enhance the key principle of the independence of public audit. I commend the order to the House.
§ Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 19th December 2002 be approved.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
§ Lord GlentoranMy Lords, in welcoming the order, I shall quote the comments that David Trimble made in Committee in another place. He said:
We maintained greater per capita expenditure on health in Northern Ireland than that in England and Wales … Unfortunately, although expenditure is higher in Northern Ireland, output is poorer. We have longer waiting lists and are not achieving the same level of health care as in England and Wales".I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal will not tell that to the noble Lord. Lord Hunt. Mr Trimble goes on:Consequently, I welcome the extension of the powers to increase the effectiveness and the efficiency of the audit in order to give us better tools to improve performance".—[Official Report, Commons Second Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, 29/1/03; col. 11.]If that is what audit is about, the best tools that we can have are welcome.
§ Lord Shutt of GreetlandMy Lords, I support the order. My noble friend Lord Sharman is behind it. He is a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, as I am. Therefore, it must be right. Clearly it is important that we have up to date audit and accountancy in Northern Ireland and I am happy to support the order.
§ Lord Maginnis of DrumglassMy Lords, my party welcomes the order. We regret that something as important as this and the other orders have to complete their stages through Orders in Council rather than by Bills.
The order is a response to the Sharman review and has clearly been tailored to meet those circumstances peculiar to Northern Ireland. It extends the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General, bringing new bodies within his remit. In particular, echoing what the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has said, we welcome the provision for all National Health Service bodies to come within the Comptroller and Auditor General's bailiwick. That is patently sensible, given the substantially increased amount of public money going into the health service.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, indicated that there is greater per capita expenditure on health in Northern Ireland than there is in England and Wales, although we still lag behind Scotland. Unfortunately, however, the output is, as David Trimble indicated, significantly poorer, with longer waiting lists and patients not receiving comparable health care to that available in Great Britain.
One questions why, with extra money being ploughed into the health service, we are not seeing a substantial increase in the quality of services. That is not be interpreted as criticism of all those who work in the health service. Those at the coal face are aware of the structural problems that need to be addressed. A more efficient and effective audit is but one measure that may begin to ensure that money is better spent.
I welcome the inclusion of some 13 non-departmental public bodies within the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit. The largest of those, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive with its substantial annual expenditure of around £750 million or £760 million, has long been the victim of protection racketeers. Between the Comptroller and Auditor General and the new Criminal Assets Bureau one would look forward to meaningful changes affecting both the housing executive and other such agencies.
The power to obtain information is important in so far as it will now take the audit beyond the public sector and into the private and semi-private sectors. Strengthening the Comptroller and Auditor General's powers is therefore vital to the long-term rehabilitation of our society. I welcome the order and look forward to the Minister's response.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, notwithstanding the previous convictions of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, I commend the order to the House.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.