Lords Sitting of 22 October 2002

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford.

The Lord Chancellor: Leave of Absence
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Irvine of Lairg): My Lords, before business begins, I take the opportunity to inform the House that I will be making the Keynote Address at the Records Management in Government Conference, in Bristol, on Thursday 24th October, when the House will sit. Accordingly, I trust that the House will grant me leave of absence.

Information Technology Practitioners
Baroness Sharp of Guildford Baroness Sharp of Guildford asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether the numbers currently being trained in information technology systems support in the United Kingdom are adequate.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I can confirm that the supply of specialist information technology practitioners is forecast to meet foreseeable demand. The specialist ICT labour market, however, is dynamic and subject to fluctuation. We continue to monitor it closely and to work with our partners in education and industry to maintain the long-term supply of skills needed to meet the demands of the modern economy.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, is he aware that the key skills shortages in the industry are at level 3 and level 4 and that we are currently totally failing to meet that demand? It is estimated that, next year, for example, there will be 280,000 unfilled vacancies in the industry. We desperately need to train people up to that level. In schemes such as Learn Direct, the Government have been addressing only the need at level 2, which is the GCSE equivalent, rather than the need at level 3 which is the A-level equivalent. How do the Government propose to meet this very serious and critical skills shortage?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness has identified an area of some concern, but I have some good news for her. In 2001, just under 70,000 further education students in the United Kingdom completed a level 3 or higher ICT course, which is a 230 per cent increase on the 1998 figure. Although I recognise that we need to increase performance and the numbers coming through in this
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field, there is a clear indication that the number of students enrolling and succeeding in these courses is increasing.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, can the Minister enlighten us about what is happening in the regions? It is very difficult to receive broadband in some of the regions. How can schools, local postmasters and farming communities readapt to a new world if they do not have access to broadband or anyone to teach them how to use it?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for identifying another crucial issue. There is no doubt at all that access to broadband is absolutely crucial for regional development, regional economies and, as he rightly identified, relatively small-scale organisations such as SMEs, all of which require access to these opportunities. I therefore assure the noble Lord that the Government are taking the issue very seriously. He has rightly identified an issue of crucial concern in the development of regional policy and regional economies.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, does the Minister accept that many good, bona fide IT providers were let down by the failure of the Individual Learning Account scheme? Will there be a replacement scheme? If so, will it include higher-level technology as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that withdrawal of the ILA scheme created a gap. We are working to replace the scheme, and considerable efforts are being made to ensure that people are able to engage in this training. We seek to develop relationships with the private sector whereby those who provide the systems also provide the training at a reasonably low cost. IT learning opportunities are increasing very significantly. There has, for example, been an encouraging increase in the number of people enrolled on part-time and full-time courses developed over the past few years. We therefore accept that we must replace the ILA. I hope that the noble Baroness will recognise that the Government are taking steps on the supply side to ensure that such courses are provided.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, what provision have the Government made for broadband in rural areas where cable provision is obviously impossible? What is the Government's attitude to bringing broadband to those remote rural areas?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as I indicated a few moments ago, this is a challenging and testing problem. We all know the difficulties of providing these resources in areas where it is exceedingly difficult to install cable. Indeed, we recognised that fact a few years ago when we addressed the issue of television channels. We also recognise that, in terms of the private market, there are limited returns on provision in certain parts of the country. I assure the noble Lord

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that the overall thrust of our policy on devolution and the regions obliges us to pay serious attention to opportunities in rural areas and the regions. I assure him that the Government regard that as an important priority.
Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, will the Minister consider whether people in their fifties with IT skills who have been made redundant in various parts of the country—IT skills are not always the preserve of young people—could become trainers or consultants to small and medium-sized enterprises and to clusters of farms? That could be a wonderful outcome both for those who have the relevant skills and for the people they would train.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the House will recognise that that is a most constructive suggestion against the background of the problems in certain parts of industry which have resulted in a substantial number of well-qualified people dropping out of employment over the past 18 months or so. We should ensure not only that those skills are not lost but also that they are used to the public good. We are considering ways of providing a strategy developed through local LSCs whereby those skills are employed to the benefit of the community.
The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, given the thrust of the noble Baroness's original Question, can the Minister tell us whether the National Hi-Tech Crime Unit is now fully staffed?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am straying a little out of area if I refer to that unit, but as I understand the position, serious attempts have been made to increase the numbers employed in the unit. However, I shall have to write to the noble Earl with regard to whether the unit is fully staffed.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, does the Minister see a correlation between the shortage of level 4 quality graduate specialists in this area and the difficulty of providing, recruiting and retaining enough competent information technology and computer scientists in the university sector as salaries outside the university sector are exceptionally high? There is a real problem here which may well not apply across all areas of academic discipline. Will the Minister consider discussing the matter with Universities UK?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord has rightly identified a particular problem in higher education which relates to the number of students coming through. I emphasise that the number of computer science graduates has increased substantially in recent years. However, I recognise the point that the noble Lord makes; that is, that university salaries for the particular skills we are discussing are not always competitive with those
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offered elsewhere. I am sure that the Minister would be only too pleased to discuss the matter with higher education institutions.

Palace of Westminster: Security
2.45 p.m.
Lord Glentoran Lord Glentoran asked Her Majesty's Government:
In the light of alleged political espionage in the Northern Ireland Office, what action they will take, including consultation with the House authorities, to ensure that a similar situation has not occurred and will not occur in the Palace of Westminster.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, there has been no suggestion emerging from the investigation that there is any similar activity in the Palace of Westminster. There are arrangements in place in the Palace to prevent breaches of security. The House authorities rightly never discuss the details of such security arrangements. If there was fear of a security breach in the Palace, it would be the responsibility of Scotland Yard in conjunction with the House authorities to investigate that matter.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that comprehensive Answer. However, does he not agree with me that Sinn Fein has seriously abused the democratic process and that the surest way to ensure that the Palace of Westminster is not contaminated by Sinn Fein spy rings is to withdraw all privileges, including access to the Palace, from Sinn Fein until it has met the Prime Minister's demand made last week to disband PIRA and become true democrats?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, we need to bear in mind that a police investigation is going on. As I advised your Lordships a few days ago, whether we like or despise the proposed defendants, they still have their democratic rights. Your Lordships recently discussed the question of privileges in the Palace of Sinn Fein Members of Parliament. That is a matter, of course, for the relevant House committee in the usual way, subject to the endorsement of the House.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord agree that the Northern Ireland Executive had to be suspended because the terrorists with whom Sinn Fein is associated refused to forswear violence? In those circumstances what possible justification can there be for Sinn Fein members, who have disqualified themselves from serving in government in Northern Ireland and who refuse to take their seats and do their work as MPs in the other place, to be rewarded with accommodation and lavish expenses to the tune of £100,000 each a year at the expense of the British taxpayer?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, the noble Lord knows, as we have been over this matter on many occasions, that the decisions to which he refers are

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essentially, in the overwhelming majority of cases, questions for the House of Commons. I personally believe—I think that the House would agree—that the decision taken by Dr Reid to suspend the Assembly was absolutely right. It was supported by the United States administration and the Government of the Irish Republic. It is an extremely important step. However, I cannot give answers to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, on matters which are essentially within the jurisdiction of the House of Commons.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord assure the House that all the systems of electronic messaging are as secure as they can be?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, the Security Service has been asked to carry out a thorough root and branch scrutiny of the arrangements in the Northern Ireland Office. That is under way at the moment. I shall not, of course, be able to announce the results of that inquiry for obvious reasons.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, the discovery of the alleged republican spy ring at Stormont has raised fears that such activities are taking place right across government both in Northern Ireland and here on the mainland. Not all of your Lordships might be aware that the Home Civil Service and the Northern Ireland Civil Service are quite separate entities. Can the noble and learned Lord assure me that the security requirements for entry to the ranks of the Northern Ireland Civil Service are as stringent as those to comparable ranks of the Home Civil Service and, if not, why not?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I can give that assurance, but, nevertheless, it is important that we take every additional step which is why I answered the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, in the way that I did. There is a security assessment being carried out at the moment.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether the Government have any longer any doubt that Mr Gerry Adams is a member of the IRA's Army Council?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, that is not an answer that I am capable of giving.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, the newspapers report that the three IRA men who are held in Colombia have given as their reasons for being there that they wanted to get to know the people, admire the natural beauty and study the peace process as practised in Colombia. Does the noble and learned Lord believe that any of those three reasons apply to the gentlemen—I have to call them that—who are now here representing Sinn Fein and could he tell me what is the point of them being here? What are they doing for the peace process?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I do not know the nature of the defence of the defendants in
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Colombia. A trial is about to start. However, I can say, having defended many people in criminal trials on many occasions, that the ingenuity of the human mind knows few limits.

Work-related Stress
2.50 p.m.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen asked Her Majesty's Government:
What progress is being made by the Health and Safety Commission on its work on stress.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Hollis of Heigham): My Lords, the Health and Safety Commission has identified work-related stress as a priority programme in achieving its PSA targets. The commission has commissioned considerable research—for example, on the impact on work performance—and the HSE has published new guidance and last week launched a new website that gives practical information and which will help to share best practice on measures that work. It is a 10-year programme and it is designed to change workplace culture and to ensure that all aspects; of employees' welfare are taken seriously.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that helpful reply. Is she aware that last week, which was the European health and safety week, the Andrea Adams Trust (of which I am president), Amicus (of which I am a member) and the Work Foundation launched a new initiative on bullying at work? Does she agree that bullying is one of the great concerns affecting working people and that it causes stress for them?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Yes, my Lords, I am indeed aware of and welcome that initiative. Bullying and harassment have no place in today s work environment and are unacceptable wherever they occur. Employees should be able to work without fear of bullying from employers—or, indeed, from anyone else. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government take that seriously. We made a manifesto commitment in 2001 to work with managers and employees to tackle the problem. As a result, the Health and Safety Executive is constructing management standards and is in the process of forming an advisory committee to feed into that work, which we hope will be in place by 2004–05.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, does the Minister agree that what some people call stress others describe: as stimulation? There is a gradient between the two. Will she give an assurance that before the Health and Safety Executive makes any fresh regulations, in this or other fields, it will undertake a cost-benefit analysis of what the regulations will cost and what burdens will be placed on employers?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I certainly accept that the response to stress may very well vary

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with the personality of individuals; that is obviously assumed. Stress may range from violence at work from clients and bullying and harassment to physical problems associated with noise and vibration, unfortunate and inadequate supervision and inappropriate prioritising of work. Those are real issues that can and often do translate into physical illness. For example, we know from the 1990s Finnish study on cardiovascular mortality—the figures date from 1973 onwards—that those who experience work-related stress are twice as likely to die of heart disease. It can also lead to stomach upsets, fatigue and headaches as well as to serious mental health problems. While the noble Lord is right to suggest that people's capacity to cope with stress may vary, none the less employers have a responsibility to ensure that the workplace does not make employees ill.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords—
Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, does my noble friend agree—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. Having listened with rapt attention to the Minister, does she agree that it appears that we shall have to try to define stress before we start a regulation?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. That is why the Health and Safety Executive has defined stress as an adverse reaction to excessive pressures. In its recent literature to employers it spelt out what those pressures might include, such as increased workload, lack of management support and some of the issues that I identified in response to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, including bullying, the lack of a proper job description and unmanaged change. We are trying not to place burdens on business or to introduce excessive regulation but to change a workplace culture in order to improve performance, job satisfaction and therefore productivity.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that apart from the areas that she has already outlined in relation to stress, a key factor must be increasing national competitiveness and welfare at work, when one considers that the cost to the British economy is more than £3 billion a year?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Coming new to this field, I was startled by the figures. The latest statistics that I have are for 1995, when 19.5 million days were lost to sickness from work, and one-third of them—6.5 million days—were lost to stress-related complaints and illnesses. I emphasise that one-third of all days taken for sickness from work were related to stress.
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The cost to employers, as my noble friend said, is in the order of one-third of a billion pounds and to society nearly £4 billion a year.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords—
Baroness Sharples: My Lords—
Noble Lords: Cross Bench!
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I appreciate the Minister's definition of stress but I refer her to the paper that defines stress as a sense of lack of control over one's own destiny; she referred to that paper, which showed higher mortality. Will she explain how the Health and Safety Executive might change attitudes not only in the workplace but across the whole of society to ensure that people have a greater sense of control over their own destiny? Much stress occurs not only in employment—it relates to a sense of a lack of control outside employment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in so far as she goes, but the lack of control over one's working conditions is only one component of stress. Some people may prefer a structured environment with clear directions about what to do. I believe that stress is an interplay between the pressures of the workplace and the personality that someone brings to it. Good employers can help to produce a culture that is beneficial not only to the individual but also to the business because it increases productivity, reduces absenteeism, improves turnover and reduces sickness. I am sure that we are all looking for that outcome.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, is the Minister aware that yesterday I went to have a medical check-up, which is now available to noble Lords as well as to Members of the Commons? One of the points that was accentuated was whether one suffered stress in your Lordships' House!
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I believe that that would depend on which political party one belongs to.
Lord Addington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as a result of the Government's many initiatives to get people who have been excluded from work back into work—many of those people are disabled—stress will occur in new areas? Are the Government seeking to ensure that those people will be able to talk to their employers about stress and that employers will be given guidance on how to understand those new areas of stress?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am sure that that is right. When employers ask the HSE how best to reduce stress in the workplace, one of its recommendations—apart from having proper grievance procedures and so on—is to interview people on a one-to-one basis when they return from

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sickness-related absence to establish how stress can be reduced in future. I am glad that the noble Lord emphasised that mental illness can be created by stress and that the physical conditions that may follow can be as much of an impairment or disability as a physical illness.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Health and Safety Commission required that when the new line between Stirling and Alloway opens, the operating procedures will be to have two signalmen on one shift to process five trains because one signalman cannot pull the levers and deal with the computer? Surely the only stress that those people will suffer will be boredom.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend will understand if I pass on the specifics of that question. I agree with noble Lords who suggested that if there is one thing worse than over-pressure at work; it is the absence of work altogether.

Economic Growth
2.59 p.m.
Lord Roberts of Conwy Lord Roberts of Conwy asked Her Majesty's Government:
What was the economic growth rate in the second quarter of 2002 and how does it compare with the second quarter of 2001.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, United Kingdom gross domestic product expanded by 0.6 per cent in the second quarter of 2002, compared with 0.3 per cent in the second quarter of 2001. The United Kingdom economy has performed relatively well during the current global slowdown. Growth last year was the fastest in the G7 and, unlike many of our major competitors, the United Kingdom economy has avoided any declines in output since the beginning of 2001.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Nevertheless, knowing that he will not wish to anticipate the Chancellor's autumn Statement, will he confirm that the Government are facing a shortfall in revenues at a time of increased public expenditure? Does he agree that, if the shortfall is dealt with by further taxation on top of the April increases in national insurance yet to come, then the chances of the economic run-down continuing are very likely, whereas, if the Government cover the shortfall with increased borrowing, at least the Chancellor's golden rule will be maintained?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Too right, my Lords! I shall certainly not anticipate the Pre-Budget Report, which will be made by the Chancellor next month.
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However, I am a little surprised by what the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said about an economic run-down. I gave the figures for the first two quarters. Our general experience is that there is a greater increase in gross domestic product in the second half of the year than in the first half. However, none of that affects the fact that the public finances are in an exceptionally good state. In 1997, net debt as a proportion of gross domestic product was 44 per cent; it is now 31 per cent. In fiscal terms, we are in very good shape.
Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept that over the past three years our share of total EU inward investment has halved and that the level of trade in goods with other EU countries as a percentage of GDP has fallen? Does he further accept that those factors are now adversely affecting our growth rate and will continue to do so until we join the euro-zone?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, we are moving a long way from the Question, but we are used to that in this House, are we not? The answer is: no. In the time that has elapsed since the establishment of the euro, it would be far too early to say what our share will be. There are reports of a great increase in trading between different countries within the euro-zone. However, our position still remains to be seen.
Lord Sheldon: My Lords, is it not the case that, due to changes in our economic growth rate, it may not be possible to avoid mirroring what is happening in many other industrial countries? However, the difference is that we have built up a considerable surplus year by year. The proper way to manage that surplus is to ensure that it is available for contra-cyclical changes over the next year or two. Is that not the proper way to manage an economy?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. It is because of the hard decisions that we took in the years immediately following 1997 that public finances are now in a healthy state. Because of that, it is possible for us to maintain our position under the golden rule and under our rules on sustainable investment. We are succeeding in doing both those things.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, following the first part of the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, will the Minister say whether he believes that the euro is helping or hindering Germany?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Lord asks whether the euro is helping or hindering Germany. That follows from a Question about our economic growth rate. I do not think so.
Lord Northbrook: My Lords, in view of the poor progress of the economy so far this year, does the

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Minister believe that the Chancellor's forecast of economic growth for this year and the next is hopelessly optimistic and, if not, why not?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, we make forecasts of economic growth at two-yearly intervals, in contrast with previous governments, who made them less frequently. The next forecast will be made at the time of the Pre-Budget Report.
Lord Saatchi: My Lords, could not anyone with a bank account tell the Government why they will have to admit in a few weeks' time that their figures are wrong? Is that not because in each month this year they have had five times more money going out than they have had coming in?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that is a very nice way of expressing the situation, I must say. Only an advertising man could do that. But the truth is that our fiscal situation is as I described it in my earlier answers. We now have a net debt of just over 30 per cent compared with 40 per cent when we came into office. Under those circumstances, the monthly figures to which the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, refers have to be seen in perspective.
Lord Peston: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that he agrees with my noble friend Lord Sheldon? When, because of world forces, an economy moves ahead rather less rapidly than was the case, it would be foolhardy beyond belief to raise taxes and cut public expenditure. What matters is that my right honourable friend the Chancellor has adopted the correct policy. That policy involves considering the situation over the cycle and over the medium term. This is the first time in a great many years that that has happened in the economy. He should not in any circumstances be deflected from that very sensible policy.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I thought I had agreed with my noble friend Lord Sheldon. I certainly agree with my noble friend Lord Peston. A feature of our present levels and of our plans for government consumption and investment is that not only are they valid in their own right—in other words, they are directed at producing better public services for the people in this country—but, in cyclical terms, they are the right thing to do from an economic policy point of view.

Business
Lord Grocott: My Lords, at a convenient time after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lord Rooker will repeat a Statement being made in another place on the fire dispute.

Animal Health Bill
3.7 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 1 [Foot-and-mouth disease]:
The Countess of Mar The Countess of Mar moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 3, at end insert—
"( ) In the Animal Health Act 1981 (c. 22) (in this Act referred to as the 1981 Act) before Paragraph 3 of Schedule 3 insert—
"(A1) The Secretary of State shall give priority to a "vaccinate to live" policy prior to causing to be slaughtered animals on premises where no infection has been detected."
The noble Countess said: My Lords, I declare my interest as the wife of a family farmer. We have Black Welsh Mountain sheep, Blonde d' Aquitaine cattle and a flock of goats.
In the aftermath of the foot and mouth disease epidemic and the bloodbath that accompanied it, almost everyone who has spoken in the many debates on the Bill has remarked on its somewhat callous opening clause. I tabled Amendments Nos. 1 and 9 in an attempt to persuade—
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, perhaps the noble Countess will forgive me. I hope that noble Lords will allow us to hear what the noble Countess is saying.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I have tabled Amendments Nos. 1 and 9 in an attempt to persuade the Minister that it would be politic to begin with a statement that does not give the impression that the Bill gives a permit to kill every animal in sight.
At the time of the epidemic, there was a hot debate on the pros and cons of vaccination. Was it effective? Would the meat be affected? Indeed, would the meat be saleable? Would not vaccinated animals still be infected? Would they not be carriers? Some of those questions are red herrings; most have now been answered. Both the science and the technology in this field are moving forward at a rapid pace. In the awful event that we should have another serious outbreak of foot and mouth disease, we should be better equipped scientifically, technically and practically to cope with controlling its spread. It could well be that vaccination will not provide the complete answer, but it should be given priority.
Experts giving evidence to the European Parliament's temporary committee on foot and mouth disease as well as to the UK-based inquiries have demonstrated their indecisiveness as to what part a vaccination policy should play in the event of a future outbreak of the disease. I quote from the European Parliament's temporary committee working document dated 16th September 2002. At paragraph 52 the rapporteur states:
"Mass culling of livestock and the subsequent destruction of meat can be ethically justified only by special socio-economic grounds. Decisions must be taken in a transparent manner: otherwise, it would be difficult to persuade those sections of the

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population who suffer most from a non-vaccination policy to provide the necessary co-operation during a future FMD outbreak".
In Committee, I said that we were governed by consent. If a government are to govern effectively in this country, the laws that they make must be reasonable and enforceable. In recent years, there have been several occasions on which a lack of consent has made enforcement difficult, if not impossible. I think instantly of the poll tax legislation enacted by the Conservative government. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the 20-day standstill rule is being flouted, simply because it is unreasonable, unworkable and unenforceable.
Difficult as it may be for the so-called "man on the Clapham omnibus" to understand, most livestock keepers have a bond with their animals that is almost as strong as the bond that they have with their family. They are also hard-headed realists. They know that, when an animal has been exposed to a disease, it must be dealt with appropriately. They find it tough to accept that a healthy animal that has had no contact with any infection must die, when there might be a means of protecting it from disease.
Equally, I recognise that farming has rotten apples, generally known as rogues. They are the wheeler-dealers of this world who own or rent numerous small parcels of land over a large area. They pay scant regard to biosecurity or animal welfare, and they trade animals as stockbrokers trade shares. Family farmers are still the major keepers of livestock in the UK. Most have a long association with the land and with their animals. It is painful and insulting for them to find themselves bracketed with the rogues by others who have little knowledge of farming or farming practices and who get their information from the exaggerated literature produced by some animal welfare organisations. I acknowledge and accept the need for strict controls, but there is room for a little humanity. Even the law can have a sympathetic face.
In Amendment No. 9, I ask the Secretary to State to ensure that an animal must be shown to be infected by foot and mouth disease before she can have it slaughtered. I understand that it is possible to differentiate between animals that are carrying antibodies as a result of vaccination and those with antibodies resulting from infection. If the animals have not been infected and have been vaccinated, they present no infective risk. It is the same as our measles vaccination: once we are vaccinated, we are not infective.
The Minister assured us on a number of occasions that the Secretary of State would take into account a vaccinate-to-live policy. For reasons of openness and humanity, I ask noble Lords to ensure that that policy appears in the Bill. I beg to move.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, despite our best efforts this morning, the groupings have gone slightly awry. With the noble Countess, Lady Mar, we intended that Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 9 would be grouped. I am not sure how Amendment No. 2 dropped out at the
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last minute, but, with the leave of the House, I shall re-group the amendments. It might save a little time, which is something of which the Minister will approve. I shall speak in support of the amendment that the noble Countess so ably moved, and I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 2 and 9.
It is interesting that it has taken until this stage in the Bill's passage for the issue of vaccination to come before your Lordships' House. One of the reasons is that we were waiting hopefully for the Government to make their own proposals to write vaccination as an option—a preferred option—into the Bill. There are several reasons why that is necessary. One is simply to change the balance of the Bill. The issue has been discussed in detail, and I remember the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford speaking eloquently about it in Committee.
At the moment, the Bill is widely seen as a slaughter Bill. The Minister denies that, but the way in which the Bill is written means that the emphasis is on slaughter, rather than vaccination. We have now seen the Anderson and Follett reports and the public's reaction to the appalling scenes that took place during the epidemic, as people desperately tried to fight it. I shall read to the House what the Minister said on the Bill's second day in Committee. Our amendments are merely a statement of what the Minister now says is government policy. The Minister said:
"The Government's preference, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made clear in July, is that a vaccinate-to-live policy should be used wherever possible, in line with the Royal Society report. However, there will be scenarios where vaccinate-to-slaughter may be appropriate".—[Official Report, 7/10/02; col. 23.]
The implication is that there will be scenarios where slaughter on its own will be appropriate.
The Minister has said on several occasions that the Government's preferred first option in a future outbreak would be vaccination and that vaccinate-to-live should be used wherever possible. It could not be clearer than that, but the Bill still launches straight into slaughter. We support the noble Countess's amendment and we tabled Amendment No. 2 because we want to see vaccination-to-live written into the Bill as a strategy for dealing with a future outbreak.
Amendment No. 2 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth. There are two parts to the amendment. The first part sets out a sequential test that the Secretary of State should apply in the case of a future outbreak and in planning for such an outbreak. The test would require the Secretary of State to consider, first, biosecurity measures, secondly, vaccination-to-live, thirdly, vaccination for possible later slaughter and—only finally—slaughter. It sounds like a long and complicated procedure, but it is not necessarily so. Decisions could, if necessary, be made quickly. It is important that decisions are made in that order in the case of future outbreaks and that that sequence should underlie planning for future outbreaks.
The Minister may say that planning for future outbreaks is not for the Bill but for the protocol that he will produce, which will be welcome, or for his

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contingency plan, which will also be welcome. However, we tabled the amendment because we wanted the Minister to tell us where such a system for making decisions would be set out. So far, the information provided by the Minister, including a letter to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, suggests that the protocol will, yet again, be all about slaughter, rather than giving fair, objective and balanced consideration to the alternatives.
The second part of the amendment probes the Government to see how they believe that they have the legal power to carry out an extensive compulsory vaccination programme to create a firebreak or as a ring vaccination or vaccination of an area—Yorkshire, for example. Where do they believe that they have those powers under existing legislation? I am no expert on existing legislation, but I read the 1981 Act and cannot find those powers. I can find the powers for compulsory vaccination, which appear in Section 16(1), but they do not appear to cover preventive vaccination of such a kind on a large scale. So mine is a probing amendment to discover where the Government believe that they have those powers and, if they do not have them or if, as they say in relation to the slaughter powers, they are ambiguous, why they do not propose to use the Bill to write them into legislation.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I rise to support both the amendment tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I share the noble Lord's view that it is astonishing that it is only now that we are to consider vaccination. I was not present for the Committee stage but I read the Official Report. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said consistently that he still needs the powers for contiguous cull. His argument for that relies on the Lessons to be Learned report, but seems to glide over some of the strongest recommendations of the Royal Society of London, the Royal Society of Edinburgh and earlier reports from Devon, all of which roundly condemn the cull policy and strongly recommend vaccination as a prior tool of future policy. That does not appear anywhere in the Bill, other than in amendments such as that moved by the noble Countess.
I hope that the House will support the amendments. Otherwise, we shall be left with a Bill that has been roundly condemned by everyone who was a victim of the contiguous cull—which, as we all know, was hugely costly in both human and financial terms. This is largely the same Bill as before, with some changes proposed on the fringes by the Government. It does not address the central point—whether we are doing the right thing—but gives the Government more powers to cull contiguously. In other words, it continues the same bankrupt policy that was perpetrated on the country last year. We should respond to the reports. The Government have not formally responded to any of the reports that they commissioned; yet here is a Bill that purports to deal with some of their recommendations.
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We should take the amendments seriously. I do not know whether there will be a Division on them, but if there is I shall certainly support them.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I hope that the Government will take seriously the amendments tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. During the passage of the Bill, the Government have not taken sufficiently into account the view held by many farmers and others closely concerned with the farming industry. The Government have never really looked at themselves from that other point of view and realised how much they are mistrusted and hated. It is no exaggeration to say that many people believe that there is a culture in what used to be the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that has not seriously changed as a result of its change of name: a culture of addiction to slaughter, belief in slaughter and preferment of slaughter, rather than the consideration of any other means.
I was telephoned today by a land agent in Devonshire who told me what happened on two farms there in June during the last outbreak. He was present on one of the farms and had been talking to a policeman. When his back was turned, the policeman jumped on his back, brought him to the ground, handcuffed him and he was subsequently charged. The Crown Prosecution Service admitted that there was absolutely no case and said that the arrest had been unlawful. There is case after case such as that, and the Government have not yet done anything to eradicate the deep suspicion and dislike of the department.
Clause 2 is entitled, "Extension of power to slaughter"; and Clause 3 is entitled, "Slaughter of vaccinated animals". There, in two headings, we have the counsel of despair or, to put it another way, the record of the department's addiction to the policy of slaughter. I hope that the Government will not be in too much of a hurry to reject the amendments.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, I am not sure that the amendment is a classic piece of drafting, but I support it because of the importance that I attach to the completion of preparations for a vaccinate-to-live policy to be applied, if appropriate, in any future outbreak of foot and mouth disease. I have made that point several times but, for me, it is the most important point in our decisions on future policy on foot and mouth disease. It is essential that we do not neglect it but write it into the Bill.
I once again recall that the Royal Society report identified several important issues to be resolved and considered that,
"With significant effort by DEFRA, that should be possible by the end of 2003".
That is what we are aiming at and we need to achieve it. The issues identified in the report were: the clear acceptance that meat and meat products from vaccinated animals could enter the food chain; the validation of marker vaccines; the trade implications; the precise vaccination strategy; and all of the practical issues concerning storage, and so on.

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The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, kindly sent me a copy of his letter to the noble Earl, Lord Peel, which states that DEFRA is considering two types of test for the presence of the foot and mouth disease virus: the simple, so-called 15-minute test; and the longer, at present laboratory test called the RT-PCR test. I shall not weary your Lordships with the translation of those initials into scientific wording, although I know it. Those are clear priorities. We must ensure that that is carried forward. That is why it would be useful to write that into the Bill to show that we are, in a sense, strengthening the possibilities for slaughter but that our objective is to arrive at a vaccinate-to-live policy, which 99.9 per cent of the British population will support.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I am surprised by the amendments because we discussed the matter in Committee at some length. Those who support the "vaccinate to live" approach, with which we all agree, refuse to read the Bill as drafted. We know what lies behind the Bill. Although the tests are extremely encouraging, there is still no satisfactory scientific proof that we can distinguish between an animal that has been vaccinated and an animal that is carrying the disease.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but we must be correct. There is a test that will distinguish between them.
Lord Carter: Yes, my Lords, but it has not been subject to peer review or accepted by the Government and the veterinary authorities.
The Government will grasp with both hands any opportunity to prevent the mass culling of animals. In moving her amendment, the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said that it may well be that vaccination is not the complete answer. That summarises the case. Vaccination may well not be the complete answer—at present, it is not. As soon as it is, any Government in their right mind would grasp it. After the experience of last year, no Government will go in for mass culling if there is any opportunity of an alternative such as vaccinate-to-live. However, it is in the Bill already, as I pointed out a number of times in Committee. Noble Lords come to the debate with preconceived ideas—I did myself when I was in Opposition—and they will not read the Bill.
New Section 16A proposed in Clause 3 states:
"This section applies to any animal which has been treated with vaccine for the purpose of preventing the spread of foot and mouth disease".
That is all animals that have been vaccinated. Subsection (2) states:
"The Secretary of State may cause to be slaughtered any animal to which this section applies".
If that clause read, "shall cause to be slaughtered", I would support the amendment. It does not say that. It gives the Government the option of slaughter or vaccinate-to-live. I am arguing that the option of vaccinate-to-live is in the Bill.
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In Amendment No. 2 subsection (1)(b) says:
"vaccination of animals without the requirement of subsequent slaughter".
It is in the Bill already. I have just read it. I urge noble Lords to understand that the Government will accept any alternative to mass slaughter if possible. However, that would be extremely irresponsible before scientific proof is available. There are some encouraging tests. We all hope that they will be successful and that the Government will grasp at them. I am sure that they will.
However, until there is satisfactory scientific proof to distinguish between an animal that has been vaccinated or one that is within the 21 days of incubation of the disease, the Government must have the option of slaughter. The Government will not slaughter if it can be avoided. That is my understanding.
However, I ask noble Lords to read the Bill as drafted. It allows the option of vaccination-to-live, which I am sure the Government will grasp, when possible.
3.30 p.m.
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he say where in the present Bill is the priority that is included in the present amendment?
Lord Carter: My Lords, how can the Government allow a priority for an untested test? Giving that priority in advance of being assured scientifically, and without veterinary advice that that test is acceptable, would be extremely irresponsible. I ask noble Lords to be realistic about that. We know the agony that everybody went through last year. Does anybody believe that any government in their right mind will slaughter animals when there is an alternative? Until there is acceptable, scientific proof that can distinguish between an animal that has been vaccinated and an animal that is incubating the disease, it is extremely irresponsible to give priority to vaccination-to-live.
Lord Renton: My Lords, surely the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Carter, and to the Government generally is the application of the simple age-long principle that prevention is better than cure. By prescribing that there shall be vaccination, the amendment of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, applies that principle.
Lord Carter: My Lords, the Bill states:
"The Secretary of State may cause to be slaughtered".
Therefore, the animals can be vaccinated. I am sure we shall hear from the Minister that that will be the Government's first priority, but at this stage they cannot accept that vaccination-to-live should be the priority.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I am not suggesting that there should never be slaughter. Vaccination may sometimes fail. However, that is the application of the principle. I believe that we should support it.
Lord Palmer: My Lords, I, too, would like to support my noble friend and the amendments. Despite

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what the noble Lord, Lord Carter, says, I feel that they are a vital safeguard. Having been sandwiched in at home with outbreaks of foot and mouth literally at the top and the bottom of the garden, every single animal at home was slaughtered. Needless to say, all the tests proved negative. To my dying day I shall be haunted by the sight of the executioners waiting at the bottom of the road to move into my neighbours' farms. Again, all their animal tests proved negative.
My noble friend's amendment makes such good common sense and we must not forget the vast experience that she has in animal health husbandry. It must be virtually second to none. I urge the Minister most strongly to consider the amendments.
Lord Moran: My Lords, it is generally agreed that there are now two options for dealing with the problem of uninfected animals which are near an outbreak: either slaughtering them, as last time, or vaccinating them to live. It is generally accepted that one or other option may be appropriate in different circumstances. However, I believe that the balance is wrong because the emphasis is entirely on slaughter. I make no apology for reminding your Lordships of my comments on 7th October (col. 29) when I quoted a speech by Commissioner Byrne. I repeat what the Commissioner said because I do not believe that the Government have taken any notice of it:
"It is no longer acceptable to the public that large numbers of animals can be slaughtered and destroyed now that new diagnostic tests have been developed and are available which differentiate between infected and vaccinated animals".
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, will note that the commissioner takes that seriously. He continued:
"the Commission is of the view that emergency vaccination should be moved to the forefront of the response mechanism in the event of future outbreaks…vaccination had been viewed as a weapon of last resort. It is now time to break with this approach".
I believe that is the motive behind my noble friend's amendment, which I support. I support much of what has been said by subsequent speakers. Amendment No. 7 proposes a new clause headed "Disease control (slaughter) protocol". There is nothing about vaccination. It seems that the whole wording reflects a policy of killing uninfected animals, instead of giving emergency vaccination. Both possibilities should exist. There should be more in the Bill reflecting the possibility of emergency vaccination because that is clearly a valid possibility.
I hope that the Minister can give us reassurance and will seek to correct the balance—the wording, more than the actual provision—to ensure that the matter is reflected in a fair way. That would be reassuring to many fanners and to many of your Lordships.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Moran. I also support both those amendments. At the risk of repeating what I said in Committee, it is a matter of presentation, style and perception. If a dispassionate observer were to write a critique of what has happened with this legislation during the past year, it would be
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clear that there has been a process of evolution and development. In the wake of foot and mouth, when slaughter was the only known policy—or the policy that was agreed and imposed, which even the NFU wanted to maintain in the face of those who were advocating vaccination—it was natural that the Government were conscious that some culls had been frustrated. Therefore, a Bill was needed to make it possible to act quickly in cases where frustration might occur again in a future outbreak.
That was understandable. That was the genesis of the Bill. The whole issue has changed enormously from a year ago. The Government have made many concessions. I am grateful to the Minister for withdrawing the word "immaterial". There is a possibility that I might give your Lordships a rendition of the Te Deum in thanksgiving for that change. However, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, for whom I have a lot of sympathy, seems to be creating an unnecessary problem. He says that vaccination is on the face of the Bill. That is true, but it is secretly tucked away in Clause 3. It is there by implication. It is actually on the face of the Bill, but one has to read rather a lot before one comes to it.
Lord Carter: My Lords, if the right reverend Prelate will give way—
The Countess of Mar: Order! Order! My Lords, perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that we are at the Report stage.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I am allowed to respond. I can tell the noble Countess that I know the rules. I can respond to an intervention which mentions me and asks me a question. I am saying that the provision is on the face of the Bill:
"This section applies to any animal which has been treated with vaccine".
It is not hidden away—it is there!
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I acknowledge that the provision is printed in Clause 3, but it is not at the front of the Bill. It is not what the Bill appears to be about. The two amendments that we are discussing try to put it at the front and make it prominent and clear that this is what we want to see happening. In Committee, the Minister said—the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, quoted his words—that we want to put the provision on the face of the Bill before we get into the slaughter procedures, which are the fall-back position. I believe that all of your Lordships are agreed that now slaughter should be the fall-back position and the last resort.
That is why the sequential test, set out in Amendment No. 2, is helpful. Perhaps the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Carter, will consider the wording of that amendment. It says:
"the Secretary of State must have regard to a sequential test".
That is not to say that he must do certain things if in a particular circumstance the test is found to be unreliable. There is genuine disagreement about the

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matter. Commissioner Byrne has claimed that there is a reliable test, but the noble Lord, Lord Carter, says that it is not yet reliable enough. If there is a sequential series of tests and if there is any doubt about the reliability of the tests, the possibility of slaughter remains as a last resort.
These amendments are important to the farming community because they put at the front of the Bill our present position and the ideal to which we aspire. It is conceivable that if we were to pass Amendment No. 1 in the name of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, which inserts the words "shall give priority", the Government will say, "Well, actually we are still not quite sure enough to be willing to accept that". I would support that amendment and I believe that the European Parliament report is strong and authoritative enough to enable us to do that with conviction. I would also support Amendment No. 2 because it sets out the sequential test.
However, I am puzzled that the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Carter, still cannot understand why the presentation of the Bill matters so much to the perception of the farming community. I fervently hope that the Government will accept the amendments. I believe they are desperately needed by farmers who are still deeply resentful about the tone of the Bill and the hangover from the time when it originated. We have moved on from there and we need to recognise that in the wording of the Bill.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I shall be brief. I support both amendments tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. I shall return to the matter when I deal with my Amendment No. 19, particularly subsection (4), dealing with the exercise of powers. That is relevant to the speeches which were made by the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Moran. I shall not deal with the matter now, but it is crucial to balance vaccination as against slaughter.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Moran, hit the nail on the head by raising the issue of the presentation and tone of the Bill. During the last session of the Committee stage we began to think that the Minister was coming to realise that its wording could not be more unsympathetic to the farming industry. It is time that the clauses were softened in the interest of presentation.
I began to feel that the Minister had learnt that when he kindly sent everyone involved in the Committee stage detailed letters of changes that were to be made, generally showing concern about our debates. However, when one read no fewer than four separate articles in today's edition of The Times showing the draconian measures that the Government were likely to bring in primary legislation to deal with foot and mouth, one began to wonder whether we were going to go through all this again.
In addition, after the Secretary of State's incredible mistake in Paris yesterday, farming came through a bad day according to what one read in the newspapers.
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As a Minister, I have been once or twice to the food fair in Paris and I realise how important publicity is, whatever one's view of the food that is put before one. To feel that the best British roast beef was being spurned at that critical moment was a serious lapse.
The amendment put forward by the noble Countess is most valuable because it puts a requirement on the Government to think for a moment or two before beginning a slaughter procedure. Clause 1 is all about slaughter, slaughter, slaughter, slaughter! There is not a word about vaccination. After all, the first clause is supposed to be the most important clause in a Bill. Acceptance of the amendment will show to the agricultural industry, the veterinary profession and the general public that before slaughter the Government will spend a few minutes considering whether vaccination is the right policy.
I cannot see what is wrong with that. Why on earth cannot we do it? Whatever the noble Lord, Lord Carter, says about there being umpteen opportunities later in the Bill, Clause 1 is the first which comes to everyone's mind. It is right that the Government should have to pause before they take action to consider whether they should vaccinate or slaughter.
The agricultural industry wants the Government to think for just a moment before taking action. Once they have taken action, nothing can redeem the poor animals which have been slaughtered. Later we will deal with the problems raised in today's newspaper about the valuation, which sounds draconian. So let us have a more sympathetic approach to a most fearful moment in a farmer's life; seeing his stock being slaughtered. I have seen it and believe that we must assure the agricultural industry that the Government will not take that step without thinking about vaccination.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I support my noble friend's amendment. During Question Time today we discussed stress. Stress among fanners is a huge problem and the stress of having lost their stock will remain with many of them for the rest of their lives.
Our breeding stock and milking cows are special. I hope that the Minister can put priority on some of the animals as regards vaccination. Much more research needs to be done into various vaccinations and I hope that the amendment will be carried so that priority will be given to vaccination.
There are more dangerous diseases in our community than foot and mouth. Foot and mouth is not a real killer to humans and not enough work is being done on various infectious diseases. Therefore, I believe that the amendments should be supported by your Lordships.
Lord May of Oxford: My Lords, first, I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his consistent courtesy in keeping us abreast of the various amendments, many of which are tabled in response to earlier debates. I want to speak in support of Amendment No. 1 because, unfortunatelv, I continue

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to be unhappy with the asymmetry which remains in the Bill, reflecting its drafting at a time long before there had been considered appraisal in the light of experience. In particular, the amendment addresses what we ought to be considering. I agree that we should be giving clearer powers for preventive slaughter, but they should be symmetric and perhaps deferential to reactive vaccination.
Furthermore, the amendment gives the Government a priority to come through. Overlying all the provisions should be clear, inescapable legislation that requires preparations to have been thought through in advance and annually rehearsed. That, too, remains hinted at but not spelled out in anything like the draconian detail that the slaughtering powers are spelled out in the Bill. Until those asymmetries are remedied, I will support amendments such as this and all kindred amendments.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister can surely be in no doubt about the strength of feeling around the Chamber today on the three opening amendments.
As my name is linked with that of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, on Amendment No. 1, it is natural that I refer to it first. The amendment calls for the Government to give priority to a vaccination-to-live policy. The number 13 is considered unlucky. Our thirteenth speaker, the very well respected noble Lord, Lord May, certainly is not unlucky in any way. He has served with great distinction. The words that he has added to those of the 12 previous speakers are an enormous contribution to the weight of argument in the Chamber today.
Noble Lords in the Chamber are not asking that vaccination should be the only policy. Let us make that clear before we go further. If an animal is infected the animal should be slaughtered, whether or not it has had to be vaccinated first. If it has become infected, slaughter is the only option.
The noble Lord, Lord May, touched on the fact that we started considering the Bill back in November last year, nearly a whole year ago. Since then things have moved on enormously. We have had the various reports. The noble Lord, Lord May, served on one of the bodies. I hope that we have learned something from them. Some noble Lords may place greater importance on different aspects. Amendment No. 1, standing in my name and that of the noble Countess, does not state that this should be the only way that we should deal with the matter, but asks that the Secretary of State should give priority to a "vaccinate-to-live" policy.
In Committee we had a long debate, as we have had again today, on strategy. I find it disappointing that the Government have not accepted the weight of argument behind my amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, says that there is reference to vaccination in the 1981 Bill. I do not think that "may" give consideration to it is the same as Amendment No. 1, which raises the profile further and states, "shall give priority" to it. The two are not the same.
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Other noble Lords have raised extremely important points. I do not want to go over those again. Perhaps I may pick up on what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford said and remind the House that when we considered the question of vaccination last year, when the outbreak was at its height, the National Farmers Union was asked for its opinion on a vaccination policy. Those noble Lords who were involved at the time will remember that they circulated a 20-question questionnaire. They did that because at that stage there were no answers to some of the questions with regard to a vaccination-to-live policy—as to whether the science was there and whether it was possible to implement it. That was back in March or April last year. The reports have been issued since then. We have had time to consider the matter. More importantly, there has been the European report. They have all moved us along. It would be great folly to resist an amendment of this kind, which gives a steer to the Government in saying that we believe that the Government should give priority to a 'vaccinate-to-live' policy.
I should like to comment on all the other contributions. That would not be right at this stage. The case has been well made by each noble Lord who has spoken. Obviously my name is attached to Amendment No. 1, but I very much support the amendments tabled by noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches. I hope that the Government listen to the weight of argument that has been put forward again today on this matter.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, the right reverend Prelate and others have rightly explained the genesis of the Bill. It was brought forward in the first place because the Government found in the course of the disease that there were certain powers which they lacked or which needed clarifying. This House, in its wisdom, declined to pursue the Bill and to look at the powers that were lacking until it had the advice of the various committees of inquiry that were looking into the conduct of the disease and the way forward.
We now have the results of those committees of inquiry. Their recommendations are reflected in the clause as it stands and in the Government's general approach. The reason why vaccination in this form is not in this clause is because we already have that power under Section 16 of the Animal Health Act 1981. That option already exists. We do not need an additional clause to provide for that option in the Bill. The Bill addresses gaps in the powers of the Government. It might be tidier and presentationally more desirable, and softer and more acceptable, to put in something which is already in law. However, your Lordships will know that that is not the normal procedure of the legislative process. We are dealing here with powers that we do not currently have.
One such power is the power of preventative slaughter. There is an explicit recommendation in the Anderson report that the power needs to be clarified. It should be clear that we have a power of preventative

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slaughter. That is what the clause is about. It is not intended to explain the total strategy in relation to any future outbreak. It is intended to give us that power which we lacked and which we would need in a future outbreak.
That is not in any sense incompatible with the recommendations of the Royal Society and the comments by Commissioner Byrne that in future we must give greater weight to the option of vaccination. And if we go down the vaccination road we should give preference to vaccination-to-live rather than the vaccination-to-kill, which was the option that we considered but did not pursue during the course of the epidemic, and which the Netherlands did pursue during the course of the epidemic.
We have accepted the recommendations of the Royal Society that greater weight in first resort priority should be given to a vaccinate-to-live policy. That however is not what these clauses seek. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, was the first person in the debate to refer to what is obvious; that whatever policy one takes to prevent the spread of the disease, stamping out the disease in the first place does require, and will continue to require, the destruction of diseased stock. The Royal Society and the Anderson report also indicate that that requires the destruction of other animals on the premises where the disease is present. That would be prevented by both Amendments Nos. 2 and 9, which restrict the exemption from the vaccination requirement to animals which have been infected.
In dealing with the disease, we would also deal with the situation of direct contact, whether between animals or between human beings, which may or may not be on the same premises. That again would be dealt with by the stamping out process in the Follett recommendations, in the Anderson recommendations and indeed what is being contemplated in Europe. So if the House wants to go along with what we have been recommended to follow by the inquiries, then we do not go along with any of the proposals before us in this group of amendments.
Although Amendment No. 1 is slightly less restrictive, it would still prevent the slaughter of—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, can the noble Lord explain to the House why he asserts that these amendments are restrictive. Is it because there is an absolute discretion by the Secretary of State that is being restricted? Or, if it is not that, and we come to that later, what is it?
4 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the point I am making is that the Royal Society report recommends not that we should adopt vaccination in all circumstances, but that the option of vaccination should be given primary weight at the point extending beyond the diseased premises and direct contact. These amendments suggest that we do so before that. Where a contiguous cull, a three-kilometre cull, a preventive firebreak, or whatever, is being contemplated, the Royal Society
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suggests that at that point the option of first resort should be to vaccinate-to-live. Whether or not we would put it precisely in those terms, the Government recognise that that is a shift of approach and one that we broadly accept.
These amendments require that vaccination shall be the option of first resort at a "closer to the disease" stage. That is not in line with what Follett recommends; it is not in line with what Anderson recommends—which is, in effect, the clause as it stands—nor is it in line with what Commissioner Byrne said is the direction in which Europe is likely to move.
Another consideration is that the Royal Society also recognised—the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, referred to this point—that we are not yet in a position, should the disease break-out, God help us, tomorrow, immediately to resort to vaccinate-to-live in the way in which ideally we would move in line with the Royal Society report. That report suggests that we need to look at issues of diagnostics and their validation; issues of logistics; and issues relating to the acceptability of vaccinated meat and milk from vaccinated animals. Those issues have to be resolved, as do certain European issues, before we can fully implement the Royal Society report in regard to the first resort of vaccinate-to-live.
It is to be hoped that that can be done fairly rapidly, certainly within the next two years, but, as of now, it is not an available option. Therefore requiring us to give priority to vaccinate-to-live, as these amendments do, not only relates to a situation beyond that recommended in the Royal Society report but would not be deliverable for at least the next 18 months to two years, even if everything went well.
It is important that we have on the statute book all the powers that the committees of inquiry have suggested we should have. This clause is about giving us one of those powers; others of those powers are spread throughout the remainder of the Bill; others already exist.
I indicated in one of my communications to noble Lords that government Amendment No. 8 requires the Secretary of State to give reasons for adopting one strategy as against another in the course of any epidemic. That is spelt out in some detail. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has tabled an amendment to that amendment which requires that, if vaccinate-to-live is not adopted, part of the Secretary of State's explanation should indicate why. Although I do not entirely agree with the wording of the amendment, I agree in principle that that should be part of the Bill.
That, surely, is where we should require the Secretary of State to explain why we have gone for a policy other than vaccination. But it is not in this area because this is not the area where priority for vaccination-to-live is recommended by the Royal Society.
Those who advocate this policy should recognise two things. First, that what they are advocating in these clauses is not recommended by the committees of inquiry. Secondly, I should point out to those who

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purport to speak for the farming industry that, by and large, the provisions now in the Bill are supported by representatives of the farming community. It is wrong to say that they are resented or opposed by British farming in general; they are not. For obvious reasons, British farmers are as anxious as anyone that the Government should have a full armoury of weapons with which to contain any future outbreak of this terrible disease, or any equivalent disease.
I recognise the passion and concern of those who advocate these amendments that we should clearly shift to giving a greater priority to vaccination—which the Government accept—but the way suggested in the three amendments is not appropriate. It is not in line with what has been recommended.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his offering. That is about all I can say for it. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have supported me, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Moran, for repeating what he said in Committee and for reminding us what the Commissioner thinks about the Bill and our activities. I am also grateful to the right reverend Prelate, who reminded us of the human aspects of the Bill, and to the noble Lord, Lord May, for promoting a balance in the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, was somewhat disingenuous. I said that vaccination was not the whole answer. I accept that viruses—belonging, as they do, to Mother Nature—can change very quickly and that a vaccine might not be available for a particular strain of virus when it hits this country. So I accept that vaccination may not be the whole answer. My amendment does not propose that vaccination should be the whole answer. It merely seeks that the Secretary of State should give priority to vaccination.
The Minister appears to be under an illusion. I go on to state in my amendment:
"prior to causing to be slaughtered animals on premises where no infection has been detected".
That is very important. Obviously I accept that infected animals need to be killed and that animals on the same premises, which are very likely to have been in contact with infected animals but are not yet showing signs of disease, should be killed. I have no problem with that whatever. However, I do have a problem in accepting that animals which have had no contact with any other diseased animal and which are showing no signs of infection—and which, if they are vaccinated, will be of no danger whatever to any other animal—must be killed. That is all I am saying.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, does the noble Countess accept that Amendments Nos. 2 and 9 relate only to infected animals and that Amendment No. 1 would restrict anything beyond infected animals to the same premise? Does she accept that direct contact can take
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place between animals which are kept at a premise different from the one in which the original disease was detected?
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I accept that also. But it is quite likely that such animals would be vaccinated. I understand that the vaccination takes only two or three days to work.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to the fact that tests to distinguish between an animal that has been infected and an animal that has been vaccinated have not yet been validated. These tests were validated quite a long time ago and deal with the RNA. I believe the noble Lord was referring to field diagnostic kits not being validated. There is a difference between the two. The field diagnostic kits are intended to cut down the time it takes to diagnose a sick animal.
I cannot accept the Minister's explanations. I must test the feeling of the House.
4.7 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 171; Not-Contents, 123.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Denham, L.

Addington, L.

Dholakia, L.

Alderdice, L.

Dixon-Smith, L.

Ampthill, L.

Dundee, E.

Anelay of St Johns, B.

Eden of Winton, L.

Arran, E.

Elles, B.

Astor, V.

Elton, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Erroll, E.

Avebury, L.

Ezra, L.

Barker, B.

Falkland, V.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Fearn, L.

Blatch, B.

Flather, B.

Bledisloe, V.

Freyberg, L.

Boardman, L.

Geddes, L.

Boothroyd, B.

Glenarthur, L.

Bradshaw, L.

Glentoran, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Goodhart, L.

Brightman, L.

Goschen, V.

Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Greaves, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Greenway, L.

Byford, B.

Hamwee, B.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Hanham, B.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Harris of Richmond, B.

Carlisle of Bucklow, L.

Hayhoe, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Henley, L.

Carrington, L.

Hereford, Bp.

Cavendish of Furness, L.

Higgins, L.

Chalfont, L.

Holme of Cheltenham, L.

Clement-Jones, L.

Hooson, L.

Colwyn, L.

Howe, E.

Condon, L.

Howe of Aberavon, L.

Cope of Berkeley, L.

Howe of Idlicote, B.

Craig of Radley, L.

Howell of Guildford, L.

Craigavon, V.

Hurd of Westwell, L.

Crickhowell, L.

Jacobs, L.

Dahrendorf, L.

Jenkin of Roding, L.

Dean of Harptree, L.

Jenkins of Hillhead, L.

1239

Jopling, L.

Rees, L.

Kimball, L.

Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.

King of Bridgwater, L.

Rennard, L.

Kingsland, L.

Renton, L.

Knight of Collingtree, B.

Roberts of Conwy, L.

Lamont of Lerwick, L.

Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.

Lewis of Newnham, L.

Rogan, L.

Liverpool, E.

Roper, L.

Livsey of Talgarth, L.

Rotherwick, L.

Luke, L.

Russell-Johnston, L.

Lyell, L.

Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.

MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.

Sandberg, L.

Scott of Needham Market, B.

Maclennan of Rogart, L.

Seccombe, B.

McNally, L.

Selkirk of Douglas, L.

Mallalieu, B.

Selsdon, L.

Mar, C. [Teller]

Sharman, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Sharp of Guildford, B.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Sharples, B.

May of Oxford, L.

Shaw of Northstead, L.

Mayhew of Twysden, L.

Shutt of Greetland, L.

Michie of Gallanach, B.

Skelmersdale, L.

Molyneaux of Killead, L.

Slim, V.

Monro of Langholm, L.

Smith of Clifton, L.

Moran, L. [Teller]

Stewartby, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Strange, B.

Naseby, L.

Taverne, L.

Noakes, B.

Taylor of Warwick, L.

Northbourne, L.

Tebbit, L.

Northesk, E.

Tenby, V.

O'Cathain, B.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.

Thomas of Walliswood, B.

Oppenheim-Barnes, B.

Thomson of Monifieth, L.

Oxford, Bp.

Tope, L.

Palmer, L.

Trumpington, B.

Peel, E.

Waddington, L.

Perry of Southwark, B.

Wakeham, L.

Perry of Walton, L.

Wallace of Saltaire, L.

Peyton of Yeovil, L.

Walpole, L.

Phillips of Sudbury, L.

Warnock, B

Platt of Writtle, B.

Weatherill, L.

Plumb, L.

Wigoder, L.

Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.

Wilberforce, L.

Prior, L.

Wilcox, B.

Rawlings, B.

Williams of Crosby, B.

Razzall, L.

Williamson of Horton, L.

Redesdale, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.

Clinton-Davis, L.

Ahmed, L.

Cohen of Pimlico, B.

Alli, L.

Corbett of Castle Vale, L.

Amos, B.

Crawley, B.

Andrews, B.

David, B.

Ashley of Stoke, L.

Davies of Coity, L.

Bach, L.

Davies of Oldham, L.

Barnett, L.

Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.

Bassam of Brighton, L.

Desai, L.

Berkeley, L.

Dixon, L.

Bernstein of Craigweil, L.

Donoughue, L.

Billingham, B.

Dormand of Easington, L.

Blackstone, B.

Dubs, L.

Borrie, L.

Elder, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Bragg, L.

Evans of Temple Guiting, L.

Brett, L.

Falconer of Thoroton, L.

Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.

Brookman, L.

Filkin, L.

Burlison, L.

Fitt, L.

Carter, L.

Fyfe of Fairfield, L.

Chan, L.

Gale, B.

Christopher, L.

Gibson of Market Rasen, B.

Clark of Windermere, L.

Gladwin of Clee, L.

Clarke of Hampstead, L.

Gordon of Strathblane, L.

1240

Goudie, B.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Gould of Potternewton, B.

Mitchell, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Morgan, L.

Gregson, L.

Morris of Manchester, L.

Grenfell, L.

Nicol, B.

Grocott, L. [Teller]

Orme, L.

Hardy of Wath, L.

Ouseley, L.

Harris of Haringey, L.

Patel of Blackburn, L.

Harrison, L.

Peston, L.

Haskel, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Haskins, L.

Radice, L.

Hattersley, L.

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Hayman, B.

Randall of St. Budeaux, L.

Hilton of Eggardon, B.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.

Richard, L.

Hollis of Heigham, B.

Roll of Ipsden, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Rooker, L.

Hoyle, L.

Scotland of Asthal, B.

Hughes of Woodside, L.

Sheldon, L.

Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

Simon, V.

Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)

Simon of Glaisdale, L.

Smith of Gilmorehill, B.

Islwyn, L.

Smith of Leigh, L.

Janner of Braunstone, L.

Stone of Blackheath, L.

Jay of Paddington, B.

Strabolgi, L.

Jordan, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

King of West Bromwich, L.

Temple-Morris, L.

Kirkhill, L.

Tomlinson, L.

Lea of Crondall, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Levy, L.

Varley, L.

Lipsey, L.

Wedderburn of Charlton, L.

Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.

Whitaker, B.

McCarthy, L.

Whitty, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]

Wilkins, B.

Williams of Elvel, L.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)

Mason of Barnsley, L.

Merlyn-Rees, L.

Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

Fire Service Dispute
4.20 p.m.
The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker): My Lords, with permission, I shall repeat a Statement made by the Deputy Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the Fire Service pay dispute.
"I am sure that Members from all sides would agree that firefighters do a magnificent job. We greatly appreciate the contribution that they and staff in the other emergency services make to public protection. They are rightly held in high regard for their professionalism and dedication. As a previous Secretary of State for Transport, I have visited some terrible scenes of disaster and you cannot but admire what the firefighters do.
"Fire Service pay is the responsibility of their employers, the local fire authorities, and the Fire Brigades Union. The negotiating process started earlier this year and the FBU lodged its claim on 28th May. The Fire Brigades Union demanded a 40 per cent no strings attached pay increase for

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firefighters, a 50 per cent increase for control room staff and a review of the 1978 formula that governed their wages. That formula has done a good job over the years. Since 1997 firefighters' pay has increased by 20 per cent. Over the same period pay for police and teachers has increased by 19 per cent.
"Only two years ago Andy Gilchrist, the General Secretary of the Fire Brigades Union said:
"Our wages remain ahead of other essential public sector workers precisely because we have maintained the formula".
The old formula solved the last pay dispute and has kept the peace for 25 years. The employers responded to the FBU's claim by indicating that any significant pay increase had to be matched by modernisation. But little progress was made in negotiations over the summer because the FBU refused to consider the employers' modernisation proposals.
"I want to be particularly clear on one point about the negotiations over the summer. At no point did the Government intervene in the negotiating process. Sir Jeremy Beecham, the leader of the Local Government Association, has made that clear on numerous occasions. And I made it absolutely clear that we had played no part in the negotiations when I met Andy Gilchrist on 8th August. Andy Gilchrist accepted that position, but made it clear that the FBU wanted a 40 per cent increase and no inquiry.
"On 2nd September the employers offered the FBU a 4 per cent increase, plus an agreement to establish a new formula that would link increases in firefighter pay to increases in the economy in general. The employers also invited the FBU to join with them in asking for an independent review to be established. And they gave an undertaking that any increase in pay agreed by the review would be backdated to the 7th November pay settlement date. By any standards that was a reasonable offer. None the less, the FBU rejected the offer.
"It was then clear that there was no prospect of a solution being found through the normal negotiating process. The employers made it clear that the negotiations had broken down, and made a request for a Government review. In those circumstances the House will recognise that the Government could not stand to one side.
"Fire disputes are different from most disputes. People's lives are put at risk. Government have a responsibility to secure people's safety. So we acted quickly and decisively. On 5th September, just three days after negotiations broke down, we set up an independent review. All sides, including the Fire Brigades Union, were asked for their input on the terms of reference. We secured the services of Professor Sir George Bain to conduct the review. Sir George is widely respected and has enormous experience of industrial relations. He is a former principal of the London Business School and a member of the ACAS panel of arbitrators. He was chair of the Low Pay Commission. The TUC and
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the employers nominated one member each to support him. The TUC nominated Sir Tony Young and the employers nominated Sir Michael Lyons.
"This is an exceptional team. It is a team with the right expertise and the right background to provide a fair and balanced assessment of the way ahead. Every relevant body, with the exception of the FBU, has submitted evidence to the review. The review is making excellent progress and will produce a report by mid-December. Yet still the FBU refuses to take part in the review. Still it has announced a programme of strikes covering 36 days before Christmas. It will not even suspend its industrial action until the review has reported. This is despite an offer from the employers to extend the mandate period in which the FBU strike ballot result is valid for another four weeks. If the FBU accepted that offer they could take industrial action without another ballot if, having seen the Bain report, they still felt it necessary. So industrial action is completely unnecessary and completely unjustified. The FBU's position is simply indefensible.
"I turn now to the plans that the Government have put in place to secure public safety in the event of industrial action by the Fire Brigades Union. Following the FBU claim and the initial response by the employers, the Government undertook prudent planning on the basis of the FBU's threat to initiate a national strike. The Fire Service is a large and complex operation. It involves some 47,000 firefighters in England and Wales and over 3,000 appliances operating from 1,600 fire stations. Our focus has been on taking what steps we can to safeguard life, and so far as possible protect property, when the normal fire cover is not available. Detailed planning began in August, and training started on the 28th of that month—before the pay negotiations had broken down.
"The plans are based on support from the Armed Services, and the acceptance by the police of additional responsibilities during industrial action. There are three main elements to the plans. First, on the assumption that fire control centres will not be operating during the strike, arrangements have been made for Fire Service 999 calls to be redirected. Every call will be answered. Secondly, emergency cover will be provided by a range of appliances staffed by Army, RAF and Naval crews. Nationwide, there will be 827 Green Goddesses, which will be able to provide only a basic firefighting capability. There will also be 331 specialist breathing apparatus rescue teams and 59 rescue equipment support teams which will offer specialist skills. Thirdly, on Friday, immediately after the FBU's announcement of their programme of strikes, the Government made available basic safety guidance and information to the public and to business. This is being supplemented by a range of other measures including a public information campaign on radio and television; a mail drop to some 4 million households; and a letter to the 15,000 largest businesses giving specific advice on fire

1243
safety and general health and safety issues. I can assure the House that the contingency arrangements are now in place.
"If the Fire Brigades Union goes ahead with its strike on Tuesday, 29th October, the military and police, assisted by those firefighters and fire officers who choose to continue to work, will be in a position to provide a basic emergency service. Members of the public should continue to call 999 in case of emergency and each call will receive a response. However, the military will not be able to respond to emergency calls as quickly as the normal Fire Service. The emergency crews will have fewer specialised capabilities than the normal Fire Service. And they are likely to be unfamiliar with the incident site and the local geography.
"In this situation, I have messages for the public, business, and the Fire Brigades Union. To the public, I urge you to take sensible precautions in your homes to prevent a fire occurring in the first place. To managers, safety representatives and others in industry and commerce, my message is to work on the basis that your normal activities continue during the strikes. However, the single most important step that you should take is to check that all existing fire safety provisions are in place and fully effective. My message to the FBU is—think again.
"Despite the wide range of measures that we have put in place, there is no doubt that the risk of loss of life and property will be higher when Fire Brigades Union members are refusing to work.
"My right honourable friend the Member for Greenwich therefore met Andy Gilchrist yesterday to urge him to clarify the extent to which the union would continue to provide a response to life-threatening incidents, whether house fires, major transport incidents or terrorist attacks. Mr Gilchrist agreed to consider this with his executive tomorrow and to let the Government have a quick response. I hope that that response will be constructive.
"Mr Speaker, we face a very serious situation. The House can be assured that I will keep the House fully informed at every opportunity".
My Lords, that completes the Statement.
4.30 p.m.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Deputy Prime Minister's Statement. Everyone in this country depends on firemen, who give a highly efficient and professional service, for which we pay them tribute. As a resident of Kensington, I know the skill with which they dealt with the terrible Paddington rail disaster, and the fact that their skills in releasing trapped passengers were greatly needed. However, the current threat cannot be justified, and we do not condone the action that is being taken in support of an unrealistic wage claim.
The seriousness of the situation cannot be underestimated. The country faces having no professional fire service on 36 days between now and Christmas, when the 5th November will be
1244
celebrated—for the whole of that month—when there is renewed concern about terrorist activity, and during the darkest time of the year, when fires and accidents are bound to occur.
Of course the Army and other armed forces have been called in to provide backup using the Green Goddess fire engines, which are a far cry from the specialist vehicles used by the Fire Service. My first question to the Minister is: why has the Army not been trained to use proper fire engines, and why does there not appear to be a contingency plan to enable it to do so? If firemen are intent on withdrawing their service, they should not be able to make fire engines unavailable for emergencies, as they do not own them. I appreciate that arrangements would have to be made to stop the need to cross a picket line daily, but I would be grateful for the Minister's views on the matter. That provision would equip the Army and put them in a much better position to deal with the situation. Our soldiers are intelligent enough given training to operate these machines. What action has been taken to free these publicly owned vehicles for emergency services, or what thoughts have there been on the matter? One life lost as a result of these engines sitting idly in their sheds would be one life too many wasted.
I make no comment on the demands of fire-fighters. Although I heard what the Deputy Prime Minister said about the Government not intervening in negotiations, I understand that the employers organisation was going to make an offer in early July. Will the Minister confirm whether that offer—I appreciate that it had been achieved at that stage—was delayed by the prospect of the setting up of an independent inquiry by the Deputy Prime Minister? If that is correct, why was it delayed until early September?
Is it also correct that the Fire Brigades Union is not giving evidence to the inquiry? Even though the inquiry was only recently implemented, it will not report for a further six weeks. Can it not be hurried up, particularly since the report has now been pre-empted by the proposed action? If it could report sooner, it would be in everyone's interest, including that of the fire-fighters, who at some stage will have to reach a settlement with their employers, who are not the Government but the local authorities. In reality they will have to reach a settlement that will not match their highest demands, but it should be reached as soon as possible and it should be informed by the inquiry.
I agree with the Minister that the tribunal that has been set up consists of people who are appropriate to deal with the complexities of this pay demand. In the interests of hastening the result, will the Government make available any resources necessary to speed the conclusion of the deliberations to bring some prospect of an early resolution to this calamitous dispute? In his Statement, the Deputy Prime Minister properly drew attention to the need for everyone to be extra vigilant to prevent fire and accidents and to have fire prevention and fire-fighting equipment to hand. However, we already have the threat of the withdrawal of tube trains on the deep lines, as a result of action proposed by Mr Crow. What other major services

1245
could be subject to such proposed action? Who will decide whether they are in danger—union leaders, Ministers, employers? There must be considerable concern about health and safety, including that of the workforce, but follow-on action could make the situation even worse. I note that this matter is not referred to in the Minister's Statement.
There is one further matter to which I should like a reply. That is the question relating to insurance liability. To whom can victims of strike action turn in the case of a fire, serious action or major disaster that the Fire Service would normally have dealt with? Are their insurance policies invalidated by the strike action? If so, who will help them out of their dilemma? The public should be given an answer to that.
This is a terrible day. I hope that good sense will yet prevail, that the inquiry can be speeded up and that the union will wait for the outcome before taking action. If not, we must rely, as in the past, on our valiant forces, and they deserve our support.
4.38 p.m.
Lord McNally: My Lords, does the Minister accept that there is considerable sympathy and support for a fair and just pay settlement for fire-fighters? Does he also accept that over recent years the whole trade union movement has done much to modernise and adapt to the 21st-century needs of its members, and that this dispute therefore takes place against considerable public good will? Yet, that good will becomes fractured by a tendency on the part of certain trade unions to target the vulnerable and the public as leverage in disputes, which cannot be tolerated. Does the Minister recall his noble friend Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, on the subject of public service disputes, telling this House on 18th April 2002:
"It is not a question of ending the right to strike but a matter of ending the need to strike".—[Official Report, 22/5/02; col. 1162.]
Is it not true that the Government have been somewhat complacent about the public service while the storm clouds have gathered? On the 22nd May, the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, told this House:
"I must ask the question: what is the problem being identified of industrial disputes in the public sector? Clearly, there are threats of disputes. There are new leaders of public sector trade unions who have been elected on the basis of threatening greater militancy. But the facts do not bear out the claim that there is a new problem of industrial disputes in the public sector".—[Official Report, 22/5/02; cols. 871–72.]
I doubt that the noble Lord would repeat that statement today, yet the Government were warned of gathering disputes and different attitudes. Have the Government done too little too late to address grievances building up in the public sectors, including problems related to housing costs and others? Those problems have created what my old friend Joe Gormley used to call, "platforms for malcontents to stand on".
In such circumstances, will the Minister not agree that it would be better if No. 10 desisted from over-macho press briefings? Those around No. 10 may feel that a good industrial dispute should be added to the
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Prime Minister's battle honours, but that would be a mistake. What examination are the Government making of the broader problems of public sector pay? Do we face a series of guerrilla disputes in the public sector, with each settlement feeding off the previous one? In that case, will not the Government simply see their much-vaunted increase in public expenditure seep away in inflationary wage demands?
In the light of this dispute and others pending, does the Minister see a need to review the Employment Relations Act 1999? What has happened to the review of that Act, which was supposedly under way?
On the specifics of the dispute, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has already asked what access the military will have to firefighting equipment other than the Green Goddesses. Will they have no access or limited access? How is the issue being handled? I also echo the noble Baroness's request for the Bain inquiry to be brought forward.
What discussions have taken place with Mr John Monks of the TUC on its code of conduct about disputes? Is the TUC being asked to produce guidance on intimidatory picketing of those who are continuing to work?
The Minister mentioned the 1978 formula. Is it dead? What offer would have been on the table under that formula? Are the Government prepared to fund a Bain settlement?
Finally, safety is very important. The Deputy Prime Minister called on everyone to examine the safety issue. If that issue is now going to be used as a guise for secondary picketing, the range of the dispute will be extended.
I hope that recent weeks have blown away the last complacency from the Government. For probably the first time in the 30 years that I have known him, I am on the same side as the Deputy Prime Minister in calling for the FBU to think again.
4.42 p.m.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am grateful for the response from the two Front Benches. I shall do my best to answer the points raised. The Army is not trained to use the equipment. I do not know how many noble Lords have been on a modern appliance. They are like the Starship Enterprise. They are way beyond the appliances that existed in 1977. The advance in technology has been enormous. It takes the best part of three months to do the training. With the best will in the world, it would not have been prudent or justified on political, economic or industrial relations grounds to say just after the claim was lodged in May or during the negotiations in June or July, before they broke down, "By the way, boys in the fire brigade, can we just send the Army into the odd fire station one day a week to train on your equipment for when you go on dispute?". Just posing the question shows how unrealistic that would be.
The strikes are not going to be like in 1977, but will come in several-day periods. In those circumstances, it would be impractical and counter-productive to ask that the equipment be used for training purposes on

1247
the days when the FBU members are not on strike, because they will be on standby to deal with emergency services. Taking equipment out of a station and using it somewhere else could cause it to malfunction or it could be sent back in the wrong working mode. That would be asking for real trouble and it is not a runner. Everyone will appreciate that that is a serious practical consideration.
There is no evidence of government interference in the negotiations. I know that rumours and allegations have circulated about who said what at various meetings and who gave nods and winks, but we have at no time interfered with the stance of the employers on what they were going to offer or when they were going to offer it, in either private or public meetings.
The Fire Brigades Union would help to speed up the inquiry if it were to make its case. As has been said elsewhere, during disputes in the 1970s, the National Union of Mineworkers never failed to turn up at the Wilberforce inquiry and others to make what it regarded as a powerful case and to have it listened to in the inquiry that was to come up with a solution as well as in the court of public opinion.
At the end of the day, there will have to be a solution, just as in 1977. The issue was hotly contended, but everybody knew that there would have to be a settlement. The formula was the solution to the 1977 dispute. That formula has stood the test of time, but the employers accepted that it would have to be reviewed. Looking at another formula was part of the employers' offer. The top quartile of the median manual industrial earnings does not have the same rank as in 1977. That was on offer to be discussed, but the offer was not accepted. As I said in the Statement that I repeated, the FBU could suspend the strike for four weeks, remain fully legal with the strike, wait for the result of the Bain inquiry, regardless of whether it gave evidence, and then decide what to do. That seems a wholly reasonable course of action for the union.
I have no evidence that the tribunal is short of resources. I am grateful for the contributions about the make-up of the tribunal. Sir George Bain, Sir Michael Lyons and Sir Tony Young are all people of experience and balance who can be trusted to come up with an independent assessment of the situation. However, their job would be a lot easier if the FBU gave evidence. I cannot for the life of me understand why the FBU is not prepared to put its case.
The decision on whether the activity of another employer is safe is the legal responsibility of that employer, acting on the advice of the health and safety authorities. It is not for trade union leaders—or for Ministers—to say whether an activity is safe for the public. The relevant employer must make that decision, acting on the advice of the health and safety authorities, which also operate under statutory independence when giving their advice.
The question about insurance is not an unimportant matter. I cannot give a detailed answer, but discussions are ongoing with leaders in the insurance industry. We shall make a statement at the appropriate time, as soon as possible.
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A point was raised about the dispute taking place against a background of public good will. We accept that the trade unions have modernised over recent years. There is no going back. There is a different framework of industrial legislation relating to disputes compared with 25 or 30 years ago. The FBU's claim was lodged only on 28th May. The Government cannot be accused—well, we can be accused of anything, but I do not think we are guilty—of complacency. The breakdown occurred on 2nd September. By 5th September we had set up the inquiry. The FBU was told about this and was asked by telephone conversation and by letter on 3rd September whether it wished to be involved in writing the terms of reference for the inquiry and to have an input and representation at the inquiry. We have never received a response to the telephone conversations or the letter. That is most unfortunate for everybody concerned.
I know nothing, as a humble Minister of State, about briefings from No. 10. The Deputy Prime Minister is responsible for the department that deals with the fire service and I have repeated his Statement. That remains the Government's stated position. There is no issue of being gung-ho or otherwise. We want a settlement. We do not want the dispute. We do not think that the Fire Brigades Union wants the dispute. There ought to be a much better way of solving the problem that has generally arisen without having to go on strike. Inquiries are one way of doing that. Sometimes we have had strikes and disputes over whether we should have an inquiry. People have gone on strike in the past to demand an inquiry. In this case the inquiry is up and running, so there is no justification for a dispute. The TUC's guidance, issued after the 1978 difficulties, stands. We hope that everyone concerned will abide by it.
I was asked whether a new formula was on offer. The prospect of a new formula was on offer, but what that formula would be was a matter for discussion. However, the dispute was called and the FBU said that it wanted 40 per cent now with no inquiry on modernisation or anything else and no discussions. I cannot say what the formula would have been, other than what I have said in the Statement.
Finally, I was asked whether the Government would accept what comes out of Professor Bain's inquiry. No government can be committed to responding to the results of an inquiry that has been set up independently and to which a key party to the dispute has not given evidence. Sir George Bain may come up with a package. He may well suggest a sum of money and a formula, but also suggest some changes in working practices to pay for some of it. How can we say yes at this point? We may be talking about a package; one cannot say. The one way to encourage the delivery of a decent package as a result of this inquiry is for the FBU to agree to give evidence to it.
4.50 p.m.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, notwithstanding the refusal of the FBU to participate in the Bain inquiry, and bearing in mind that it may persist in that

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unhelpful attitude, can my noble friend the Minister say whether there is any possibility of the Government accepting a suggestion that I believe has been put forward in both Houses; namely, that the conclusion of the Bain inquiry should be significantly advanced from, say, 9th December of this year to a date in November? I recognise that the Government have no locus in this process because it is a matter for the Bain inquiry. However, will my noble friend pass on that suggestion to Sir George Bain at once?
Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords; that is naturally the case. I do not know what the response from the Bain inquiry would be. However, it would be much easier to produce a quicker report if all the evidence could be put before the inquiry; for example, evidence from the FBU. There is nothing to suggest that there is a shortage of resources, but we are talking about an independent inquiry consisting of people of good will who are taking evidence from all parties that they can possibly reach. As a result of these statements and other discussions, I simply hope that the FBU will see that it is in its interests to outline its case not to the megaphones of the media and to the tabloid newspapers but to Sir George Bain and his inquiry. The union should also suspend any idea of action until he has reported. That can be done quite legally. Indeed, the employers have said that they would be prepared to increase the mandate of the strike ballot.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the changes made to employment law immediately after 1979 was the outlawing—the removal—of legal immunity for secondary action taken by groups of workers who are not involved in a dispute to bring pressure to bear on the employer who is involved? Is it not correct that the Government have done nothing to reverse that reform, and yet there are already threats by railmen and other workers to the effect that they may withdraw their labour ostensibly on safety grounds? Can the Minister give the House an assurance that the Government will support all those who combat secondary action of that kind, if necessary by invoking the law?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, we shall support all lawful processes. The noble Lord is quite right to say that we have not changed the issue about legal immunity. Trade union leaders do not own the safety of employees; safety representatives are crucial in that respect. The record of the trade union movement in improving industrial safety in this country is second to none. It is something for which it fought for years. Part of the reason for the start of the trade union movement was to secure better and safer working conditions for its members. However, the latter should not be used as a proxy in another dispute.
All this has come as a result of Royal Commissions, on which trade unions have been represented—for example, the Robbins Commission—and the work of the Health and Safety Commission and the Health and Safety Executive. The independent health and safety
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authorities are the relevant, lawful people who decide whether or not activities have to be suspended because of lack of safety cover. It is not a matter for trade union leaders to decide. If they do so without the advice of the health and safety authorities, quite clearly they may leave themselves liable.
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, I hope that the Government will not become involved in a debate in this House about the merits of the dispute. I do not like the idea of arguments across the Chamber about the merits of a particular case. As the person who actually invented the formula, I am especially concerned about this issue. It has been stated in newspaper reports that the Government consider that 40 per cent is too much. Can my noble friend the Minister tell the House where the Government got that conclusion from? That is partly what is queering the pitch. The Government have announced that 40 per cent is too much. It was not too much a few months ago when MPs were awarded a 40 per cent increase, but it is too much now. Why? This must mean that the Government now have some kind of norm in their mind. In the old days this was called having an incomes policy. Can my noble friend the Minister say what is a reasonable figure when you know in advance of an investigation and subsequent report that 40 per cent is too much?
Further, if I understand my noble friend correctly, he said that as a result of representations from the employers in this case the Government agreed to set up an independent inquiry. Is that also a movement in policy? Both this Government and the previous government have generally said over the past 20 years that they did not like inquiries, conciliation, or arbitration. And they got rid of the comparability commission. Moreover, we do not allow the Civil Service to go to the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal. But now local government employers come along and, as a result, the Government establish the Bain inquiry, while repeating that 40 per cent is too much.
Does this mean that another employer, faced with an equally serious dispute, could demand such an inquiry? Indeed, the Government would find themselves in a very difficult position if, after Bain, they did not accede to such a request. And what the Government give to the employers they must surely give to the unions. Let us suppose that another union demands an independent inquiry chaired by Sir George Bain. What would the Government say in response? Are they changing their policy, or not changing their policy? I am not against them changing their policy, but they had better take this matter away and think about what they are doing: are they going for incomes policy, or for arbitration? I do not expect to receive an answer this afternoon. But they should reconsider these matters and make up their minds.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, with great respect to my noble friend, I should point out that he asked me not to get involved in the merits of the dispute. Therefore, I shall certainly not argue the case about which percentage is the right one. I recognise the analogy made with Members of the other place, but let us just

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think about it. The Top Salaries Review Body is an independent body to which MPs gave evidence on their case, but they did not, as it were, fix the results of the inquiry. The FBU should follow the line taken by MPs and give evidence to the independent body, make their case, and then await the outcome. That is the analogy that I draw between the two groups. We should not play off one against the other.
I should add that MPs actually deferred their pay increases for many years in the hope that others would follow their example. However, it did not work out quite as they expected.
Lord Prior: My Lords, the Minister may be glad to know that I shall not ask him as belligerent a question as was posed a short while ago from the other side of the House. Such disputes are extremely difficult and delicate. One has to be very careful what one says. But when otherwise reasonable and responsible people vote 9:1 in favour of strike action, one is bound to ask what is the underlying cause that leads people to adopt such a position.
Can the Minister outline the Government's view on what has caused reasonable people to vote in this manner? If they have not, as yet, found out anything in that respect, can the Minister confirm that the Government are making every effort to discover what lies behind the dispute? It must be much more than just a simple pay issue.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, in a way, I accept the thrust of the noble Lord's question when people vote 9:1 in favour of such action. I do not know the exact figures, but I believe I said that the total number of fire service personnel today is 47,000. The vast majority of those members will have joined the service since 1977 in the knowledge that there was a stable tried-and-tested formula for wage increases based on the outcome of the previous dispute. In fact, it was a formula that most trade unions would have given their hind teeth for in the past, even though it stymied free collective bargaining because it was actually a formula that gave the pay increase each year.
When, two years ago, the person who is now the general secretary of the FBU said that the formula had done a good job, that did not ring any warning bells to the effect that there was something wrong with the formula. In just two years out of 25, I do know what has caused Mr Gilchrist to move from saying that the formula had done a good job and given good salaries to saying now that it is an absolute travesty and needs burying. Clearly there is a problem here. But, given the fact that the general secretary made that comment just two years ago, it is not one that has festered over the years as some people might think.
Baroness Michie of Gallanach: My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has said anything yet about retained fire fighters. As he knows, they are part-time but very efficient and professional fire fighters who provide a tremendous service to the rural areas of this
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country, particularly in the highlands of Scotland. Retained fire fighters do not strike, but have they been invited to give evidence to the review body?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not have specific details about that. However, the employers accepted that retained fire fighters' pay should be improved; in fact, one of the accepted claims was that their pay should be improved. As far as I know, Professor Bain and his colleagues are taking evidence from all the relevant parties who wish to provide it. I am sure that retained fire fighters will be invited to give evidence. I pay tribute to the service that they provide. They provide, almost by definition, an incredibly localised community service in our rural areas. We would not be able to fight fires in those areas without them.
Lord Merlyn-Rees: My Lords, I declare an interest. I was Home Secretary at the time of the previous dispute and—with Mr Terry Parry, of the Fire Brigades Union—played a part in settling it. I also played a small part in the TUC's development of a code of practice for dealing with safety matters. These two issues are still relevant. What has changed is that, whereas the previous dispute occurred in days of high inflation, we now have low inflation, which has a bearing on pay awards. Does my noble friend believe, as I still do, that the way forward is through the TUC code of practice?
The pay inquiry will not report until December. Meanwhile, inaccuracies about the dispute are reported daily, particularly in relation to the role of the Green Goddesses, written by people who have never seen a Green Goddess or thought about how they can be used. The Green Goddesses are kept at a storage base in the East Midlands. They are looked after carefully and have had limited use. There is not a snowball's chance in hell of their replacing the vehicles of the modern fire service. People who argue that, prove that they know nothing about the matter. We require a period of calm and quiet to settle this dispute, and I hope that we shall have that.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I remember the role that he played in the acrimonious 1977 dispute, when I was just a humble Back Bencher in the other place. The fact is that the formula solved that dispute; it was the key. At the time, people always ask why a formula could not have been dreamt up seven or eight weeks earlier. We accept that the formula needs to be re-examined. The way to do that, however, is to sit down round the table. There is plenty of time to do that before going on strike.
Viscount Astor: My Lords, over the weekend, the Minister's colleague in another place, Mr Nick Raynsford, said that he thought that train operating companies would operate normally. However, surely that is a matter for the companies and for the Health and Safety Executive. Or will the Government be offering advice to the train operating companies? If the Health and Safety Executive tells the train operating companies that it is safe to run their services, but the

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companies are unable to obtain insurance cover because of the national strike, will the Government stand behind them in relation to cover, as they did for the airlines after September 11th last year?
Lord Rooker: As I said, my Lords, discussions on insurance are in progress. As I also said, however, it is up to employers, on the advice of the health and safety authorities, to decide whether it is safe to run the service they are providing. If they receive advice from the health and safety authorities that they can run their service, I cannot see why insurance cover should be an issue.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the saving of life should be the paramount consideration in emergencies? Will the Government therefore consider making cutting equipment available to servicemen? The use of such equipment in car crashes, and even in coach and train crashes, can be a critical factor in saving lives.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, reverting to the original Statement, Mr Gilchrist was asked yesterday about the FBU's views in relation to life-threatening circumstances. He was also reminded of the TUC code—an aspect of the club to which all the trade unions have signed up. He said that he would discuss the matter with his executive and come back to the Government; I believe that my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister said that the FBU would come back tomorrow. I accept the noble Lord's point that the saving of life is the paramount consideration.
Lord Christopher: My Lords, this is not a dispute that will be solved through textbooks. The noble Lord, Lord Prior, asked a fundamental question: why did more than 90 per cent of firemen vote to go on strike? I ask my noble friend the Minister to reflect on the fact that the 1977 formula—I shall, if I may, add a little to the history given by my noble friend Lord Merlyn-Rees—was not accepted by firemen; it was imposed on their leadership by the then TUC general council. I know that because I was there. We sent Terry Parry out to tell his massed ranks, who filled Great Russell Street, that the dispute had to be settled on the basis of that formula. I was not entirely surprised by that because, at the time, no one could see the value of the formula. Every general secretary has had a similar situation in his own union at some time.
In a few days, the dispute will have started, and the most difficult thing will be to persuade people to stop. Although I completely accept what my noble friend the Minister said about the Government not interfering, there are reports, which I believe are accurate, that firemen do not believe that. Reports of offers of 15 or 16 per cent have been bandied about, and they are either true or untrue. There are also stories about comments by a member of the Bain committee, and they are either true or untrue. I believe that the first task should be to endeavour to remove that misunderstanding. As the Minister said, it is a misunderstanding.
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I believe that it would be a great mistake for the Bain committee to hurry its report. The problems with the fire service go much deeper than the matter of pay. There are also problems with, for example, the fire service pay structure. The fire brigades compare their pay structures with those for the police. The formula broke down because of advances made by those without a formula. Bain needs to have enough time to address all of those issues.
If I am correct about that, and if we are to reach a settlement, will the Minister just consider a way of reaching an interim offer and giving some assurances about the intent of the Bain committee? If we return to some of the thinking I have heard expressed today, we shall be returning almost to 1926. References to the law will not help one jot. This is the most heavily supported dispute for a very long time and it needs to be dealt with in a manner likely to produce a settlement. I believe that that will be possible only with an interim settlement which entails waiting for Bain.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I accept my noble friend's warning about the law. However, I think that I have answered the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, to the best of my ability. I do not think that it was a provocative question. The Government have not sought to change the law in respect of immunity for secondary action. I think that that is a straightforward position. As for the other points, however, surely the way of getting answers about what might have been offered on a given day or in various meetings is for the parties to give evidence to the inquiry. Let the independent inquiry decide who said what and the root issues in fire service pay. People have accepted that the formula needs changing but the fact of the matter is that the formula—
Lord Christopher: My Lords, the firefighters do not believe it is independent.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I was about to say to my noble friend that I believe that the formula is based on the higher quartile of top manual industrial earnings. It is not a question of people who are not a party to the formula getting ahead; the industrial structure of this country today is not even remotely like that of 1977. One can therefore appreciate that the formula needs to be reviewed; that point has been conceded. The best body to decide that is the inquiry.

Animal Health Bill
5.10 p.m.
Consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 1.
[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 9, leave out "thinks" and insert "decides"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 3 asks the Government to think again and substitute the word "decides" for the word "thinks" on page 1, line 9, of the Bill. I apologise for labouring the point but I am concerned that the Bill should stand the test of time. By now the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, must know every dash, comma, dot and interpretation of it. I am sure that he recalls clearly the many arguments that we put forward at different stages. I am also certain that he knows exactly what he has or has not committed the Government to. However, three or four Ministers down the road and after a couple more departmental reorganisations, I fear that all that detail will be lost. Therefore, I am anxious that we make it clear on the face of the Bill that where the Minister is required to take an active part in the decision-making, he does so. The Bill currently states,
"the Secretary of State thinks".
I believe that that is parliamentary language, but I hope that the Minister will accept the word "decides" that I propose as it clearly implies that the Secretary of State will go through a conscious and rational process. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I support the amendment. It governs the exercise of powers, which are referred to in Amendment No. 19. I refer to the exercise of powers under Clauses 5 to 7.
The word "thinks" confers an absolute discretion which is not justiciable, whereas the word "decides"—that is, a decision—is justiciable and affords judicial review as to the grounds of the decision. A decision would have to be based on some ground and that ground would be a report from an inspector or a series of inspectors' reports. That could be safeguarded on judicial review and that would afford a reasonable measure of safeguard within the law. As I say, I support the amendment.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, the group of amendments we are discussing concerns the debate in Committee which became famous for the depth of its philosophical insight as regards whether something was material or immaterial and what "immaterial" meant. No doubt the Government will shortly move their amendment to remove the word "immaterial". However, there were two aspects to the "immaterial" debate. One concerned the question of what the word meant—the Government amendment deals with that matter and makes it starkly clear—the other concerned whether what it meant was or was not a good thing.
It is our view that new Section 1A is badly phrased. The Government are saying in effect that certain things do not matter in any decision whether to slaughter. In other words, anyone who says that an animal cannot be slaughtered because it is not infected, has not been in contact with or exposed to infection or has been vaccinated will be told to go away because those things do not matter. It appears that any animal can be slaughtered which the Secretary of State in his or her wisdom thinks should be slaughtered. We have tabled an amendment to make clear that animals can
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be slaughtered only under certain circumstances. We believe that animals can be satisfactorily treated with vaccine against foot and mouth disease. We have tabled the amendment to establish the difference in thinking between ourselves and the Government. I do not think that there is a cat in whatever's chance of the Minister accepting the amendment but it is an important statement of principle and illustrates why the fundamental philosophy behind the Bill is wrong.
5.15 p.m.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, one cannot possibly have someone just thinking something. I give the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, the benefit of the doubt in that I know that he thinks about what he is doing. Whether he thinks correctly or thinks wrongly is a matter of judgment as between my judgment and his, both of which may be wrong. The point is that Ministers must decide, not just think. A decision implies intellectual rigour. For the benefit of those of a less historical frame of mind than myself, it was Abbe Sieves who said, "gouverner, c'est choisir"; in other words, to govern is to make decisions. So governments have to make decisions and be held accountable for those decisions. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has to decide a matter, not just to think in a woolly way. I know that his intellectual processes are rather more rigorous than that, but perhaps those of some of his successors might not be.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I was astonished when the noble Lord found it impossible to accept the noble Countess's amendment. Here is one which I should have thought is almost equally easy for the Government to accept. As has been pointed out, the word "thinks" is very subjective. Indeed, one of our problems is that the Government do not seem to have thought enough about the Bill. Perhaps they should rethink it altogether. However, on the face of it, to use "thinks" as opposed to "decides" seems to me to introduce a quite unnecessary piece of vagueness. If the Government do not accept so simple a measure as this amendment, all I can say is that it is just one more instance of the Government being absolutely wedded to a stonewall defence of a very bad Bill.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, this group of amendments includes some issues of terminology which one can argue about and one of serious principle. As regards the issues of terminology, the Government's Amendment No. 4, which I shall move shortly, recognises that the use of the term "immaterial" in the Bill as currently drafted gives rise to a somewhat negative response. We did not intend to imply that the relevant issues did not matter, rather that they would not determine the matter. They could well be taken into account and they may well be the most important issues but they will not of themselves determine or constrain the relevant decision.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford is no longer present. He promised us a Te Deum with regard to the amendment. That reflects the view of the

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House that the word "immaterial" is offensive. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will accept my amendment to remove it.
I should like to be as accommodating with regard to Amendment No. 3. It may appear a little perverse of me not to be. I assure the noble Baroness that I engage in conscious and rational decisions, as I know that she sometimes doubts that. On this occasion, the problem is that the clause is an amendment to the Animal Health Act and consistency with the phraseology of that Act is necessary. Throughout, that Act uses the word "thinks". Whatever weight one may put on the views of the noble Earl and the noble Baroness, my advice is that we should maintain consistency. Therefore, with regret to some extent, I cannot agree to Amendment No. 3.
With Amendment No. 5, we come to an important issue of principle. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, rightly said that the issue is not whether we use the word "immaterial" but what processes are involved. The amendment would reverse the intent of the clause, which is, as I said in relation to the previous group of amendments, to give effect to the clear recommendation of the Anderson inquiry that the Government should unambiguously give themselves powers to carry out preventive slaughter in certain situations. That is what the clause attempts to do. I know that some noble Lords oppose that but if the House believes that we are following the advice of the committees that we commissioned, it should agree to the clause and its intent. Amendment No. 5 would reverse that and constrain the slaughter powers to what they currently are. I know that that is what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, wants, but it is not what the Anderson committee advised us to do and it is not what the Government advise the House to do. I therefore most strongly resist Amendment No. 5.
Baroness Byford: I do not know whether I thank the noble Lord for that response to my amendment, which I regard as an important amendment. It would give powers to the Minister to slaughter. Proposed new Clause 1(2) states:
"In sub-paragraph (1)…after paragraph (b) insert—
'(c) any animals the Secretary of State thinks'".
I am not minded to press the amendment to a vote but, in view of the slight encouragement in the Minister's response, I hope that he will ask the department to consider the proposal again. The issue is not about the word "immaterial"—we shall come to that later and I do not want to labour it at this stage. The Bill will give the Secretary of State powers relating to animals that he "thinks"—rather than "decides"—
"should be slaughtered with a view to preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease".
That is an important issue, not a minor one. I thank those noble Lords who supported the amendment. I hope that the Minister will seek further advice and return to the issue at Third Reading. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Gould of Potternewton): My Lords, I have to inform noble Lords that if Amendment No. 4 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 5 for reasons of pre-emption.
Lord Whitty Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 1, line 13, leave out from beginning to "whether" and insert "The Secretary of State may exercise the power under sub-paragraph (1)(c)"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for having listened to the arguments that were advanced in Committee. We support the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 5 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 6 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Clause 2 [Extension of power to slaughter]:
[Amendment No. 6A not moved.]
Lord Whitty Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 7:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause—
"DISEASE CONTROL (SLAUGHTER) PROTOCOL
In the 1981 Act the following sections are inserted after section 32A (as inserted by section 2 above)—
"32B DISEASE CONTROL (SLAUGHTER) PROTOCOL

(1) This section applies to a power exercisable by the Secretary of State under—

(a) paragraph 3(1)(c) of Schedule 3;

(b) such other provision of that Schedule (as amended by an order under section 32A(1)(a)) as the Secretary of State by order specifies;

(c) such other provisions of this Act relating to the control of disease as the Secretary of State by order specifies.

(2) The Secretary of State must prepare a document (the disease control (slaughter) protocol) indicating—

(a) the purposes for which any power to which this section applies will be exercised;

(b) the principal factors to be taken into account in deciding whether to exercise the power;

(c) the procedure to be followed in deciding whether in any circumstances or description of circumstances the power is to be exercised;

(d) the procedure to be followed by persons who have functions in relation to the exercise of the power;

(e) the means by which a particular decision to exercise the power may be reviewed.

(3) After preparing a draft of the disease control (slaughter) protocol the Secretary of State—

(a) must send a copy of the draft to such persons and organisations as he thinks are representative of those having an interest in the exercise of the power;

(b) must consider any representations made to him about the draft by such persons and organisations;

(c) may amend the draft accordingly.

(4) After the Secretary of State has proceeded under subsection (3) he must publish the protocol in such manner as he thinks appropriate.

(5) The Secretary of State must from time to time review the protocol and if he thinks it appropriate revise the protocol.

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(6) Subsections (2) to (4) apply to a revision of the protocol as they apply to its preparation.

(7) The power to make an order must be exercised by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(8) It is immaterial that anything done for the purposes of subsections (2) to (4) is done before the passing of the Animal Health Act 2002.

32C PROTOCOL: EXERCISE OF POWERS

(1) A power to which section 32B applies must not be exercised unless the protocol mentioned in that section has been published and has not been withdrawn

(2) Any act which is done in contravention of subsection (1) is done without lawful authority.

(3) If a person who has any function in relation to the exercise of a power to which section 32B applies fails to act in accordance with the protocol he is not by reason only of that failure liable in any civil or criminal proceedings.

(4) But the protocol is admissible in evidence in such proceedings and a court may take account of any failure to act in accordance with it in deciding any question in the proceedings.""

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to help to allay the concerns expressed in this House and elsewhere about the use of the new slaughter powers. It places in the Bill our commitment to publish a disease control (slaughter) protocol, which will indicate the procedures that the Government will follow if we decide to exercise the new preventive slaughter power and the relevant factors that we will have to take into account when deciding to exercise that new power. The intention is to consult fully on the protocol with all stakeholders. As experience and science change, it could be reviewed regularly.
Another condition is that the new preventive slaughter power could not lawfully be used without the prior publication of the protocols; in other words, we could not use the powers without explaining in what circumstances we would do so. Our intention is that the use of the new slaughter power should be as open and transparent as possible. With the publication of the protocol, coupled with the requirement to publish reasons for using a preventive power, the Bill will achieve the reassurance that has been sought from a number of quarters about how the powers in Clause 1 will be used. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves Lord Greaves moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 7A:
Line 14, leave out "prepare a document" and insert "make an order"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I seek advice from someone: am I speaking to all of the amendments grouped with Amendment No. 7A? The noble Lord, Lord Carter, nods his head. He seems to be running proceedings today, so I shall accept his advice. I am grateful to him—on this occasion, at least.
I turn to the purpose of Amendment No. 7A and those grouped with it. As the Bill is drafted, the disease control (slaughter) protocol is a document on which the Secretary of State will consult and he will take account of what people say but he will be able to issue it in whatever way he wishes—he will be able to publish
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it in whatever form he thinks necessary. We seek to change that and make the document an order or statutory instrument that is published in the normal way for statutory instruments; that is, it would be subject, if the amendment is agreed to, to the negative resolution procedure, which would not be terribly onerous. However, the statutory instrument would be presented to Parliament and could if necessary be debated by Parliament. We believe that that is a necessary safeguard in relation to a high-profile and controversial matter. It would ensure that the Government know that there is a backstop if what they propose in the protocol is not acceptable. The statutory instrument could be debated by Parliament and in extremis rejected by Parliament.
We are not proposing a huge step; we do not believe that our approach will prevent the Government from doing what they want to do. We believe that it is a democratic safeguard, which, in this case, should be provided. That is what Amendment No. 7A would do. It is the core amendment in this group.
Most of the remaining amendments in this group would change the word "protocol" to "regulations". It has been suggested that the word "protocol" is too weak and that the word "regulations" would be more appropriate. I have no strong feelings about that—our advice is that the word "regulations" is better than "protocol". Amendment No. 7A is at the heart of the matter and we seek to push the Minister in relation to it.
Amendment No. 7D in this group also suggests that, as part of the protocol, the Minister should have to state the reasons for carrying out a cull of animals rather than deciding on vaccination or other options. In a sense, this forms part of the debate that we had earlier today. It had to be raised at this point because it affects a new amendment proposed by the Minister. However, the issue forms part of the vaccination debate and I hope that the Minister will be able to accept Amendment No. 7D, or, at least, the principles behind it, and to write it into the protocol.
I begin by referring to the protocol in wider terms. We believe that the disease-control protocol and the contingency plan, which, in a later amendment, the Minister will propose should be on the face of the Bill, are both important documents. We have already seen the draft protocol and the interim contingency plan and believe that the criticisms expressed about the Bill and its lack of balance apply in both cases. In both, the emphasis is still heavily on slaughter and heavily against vaccination. We accept that the Minister is moving slowly towards accepting vaccination as an option, but it seems to us that the balance that we require is not there.
I consider the contents of the protocol and the contingency plan, which we shall discuss later, to be crucial. That is another reason why we believe that the protocol should be made by order. We believe that it should be a statutory instrument and debatable by this House and by the other place. I beg to move.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, I want to ask the Minister a question, of which I had given him notice, relating to the amendment. With regard to this amendment, this new clause and other clauses of the same nature in the Bill, it would be helpful to all noble Lords to know the relation of the Bill to the work on foot and mouth now being carried out in Brussels.
When I spoke in the debate on 7th October, I mentioned that Commissioner Byrne had said that a draft directive was to be put forward, but, of course, at that stage I had not seen it. Now I have, thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, who kindly lent me his copy. I made a copy of the draft for myself and arranged for the Library also to have a copy so that it could make it available to other noble Lords. It is a very long and detailed draft, which no doubt the Minister and his department will consider and discuss.
However, I do not understand how the Bill fits in with the impending directive. In particular, I do not know when it is likely that the directive will come into force. But it seems to me that, if the Bill is passed in the relatively near future, there is a danger that it may become out of date and be superseded by powers that the Commission will propose that the EU as a whole should take in relation to the whole European Union. It is clearly proposing that arrangements should be made to cover the whole Union with regard to foot and mouth and possibly other animal diseases. It would be a great help to me and, I imagine, to other noble Lords to know how the Bill meshes with the impending directive, when the directive is likely to be issued and whether the Bill will be affected or unaffected by it.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, perhaps I may add one or two points to those made by my noble friend Lord Greaves and also mention one or two issues which the noble Lord, Lord Moran, raised. We feel very strongly that protocols do not have enough force. My experience of protocols in legislation occurred, in the main, during the passage of the Government of Wales Bill in the other place. When the Secretary of State was at a somewhat loose end when asked difficult questions, he said that a protocol on the matter would be introduced, and we had a long list of protocols. I would not say that they amounted to pages and pages but there were certainly large numbers of them. That is why we feel strongly that force should be given to this matter.
The other general point that I want to make is that the title refers to disease control, but then references are made only to slaughter. I do not want to pre-empt anything that the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, will say because he, too, very kindly showed me the draft EU directive. However, I shall mention one item in the directive which concerns control by vaccination in the case of a disease spreading severely.
Clearly, many different tools are used in controlling disease. If one is to have a disease-control slaughter protocol, then perhaps one should consider disease-control in other respects, too. I believe that that is important and it was underlined in the Royal Society
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report by Sir Brian Follett, who said something similar to what I said in relation to the EU proposal. In view of what the Minister said earlier about testing and matters of that kind—I believe that we shall return to those issues in this debate—perhaps in a year or 18 months we shall be given definitive explanations of these matters. None the less, we believe that the protocol could be cast far more widely, that it should be ordered and, at the same time, have rather more force.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Livsey. The meaning of the word "protocol" is woolly when applied to legislation. It is also far more firm to make an order rather than prepare a document. I believe that this group of amendments should definitely be supported.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I want to say a few words about the amendment. First, I should like to hear the Minister's response concerning the difference between a protocol and an order. I believe we all accept that that needs to be clarified. We need to be told where one or the other might fit in and whether the protocol or the regulations are stronger. I suspect that regulations are stronger than a protocol, but my legal language is not very good.
Secondly, following the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, is the Minister in a position to give us an indication as to when a response will be made by our Government to the European Parliament's working group 5A, to which we referred earlier? That would help. Can he also say when the European Parliament is likely to put forward the proposal formally? At present, it is at a working group stage. I know that this is the Report stage of the Bill but it is difficult for us to comment on the matter because we need to hear what the Minister has to say. Therefore, I hope that any questions will be raised before the Minister sits down because we need clarification on those points.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, this group of amendments seeks, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, to turn the protocol into secondary legislation.
The protocol is designed to explain what needs to be taken into account when these new powers are used. These new powers relate to slaughter. We already have powers which relate to vaccination. The protocol is therefore only used to explain the circumstances in which the new powers would be used. It will not describe or constrain the whole strategy. It may well be that in most circumstances vaccination would be the preferred option. It will describe where we might in present circumstances use these new powers and only these new powers because that is the only part of the legislation that requires this degree of explanation.
Explanation is not the same as secondary legislation. It is more flexible than secondary legislation. Circumstances will change. The nature of the disease and outbreak may change and experience abroad may change. Indeed, to turn to the point made

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by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, there may be developments at the European level which would need to be taken into account in the protocol. It is unlikely that there will be developments in Europe that would give us more powers than we already have on vaccination, or more powers than we need—if we adopt the clause as it stands—on slaughter. The balance may well change as the EU moves more in favour of vaccination than has been the case historically. But it will not alter the fact that we need both powers.
As to the timetable of European consideration, the proposition has just been put on the table and the discussion is ongoing. It could be some time before we get to a position where this is substantively discussed at the political level and a considerable time after that before it has been through the parliamentary and the Council of Ministers processes and actually passes into European legislation.
At that point the protocol may need to reflect that development, but we are not at that stage now. We are unlikely to be at that point for some considerable time. So we must recognise what the protocol is for. It is an explanation, not a legislative tool. If we were to change its nature, it would be a piece of legislation, albeit secondary legislation, subject—as I believe the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggested—to the negative procedure, which would need a positive decision in order for it to be debated in the House. Although it would be a relatively low-key piece of legislation, if the circumstances of animal disease control changed we would have to change the provisions.
That is not what we need in this process. For those who may be the recipients of action under the clause we need to explain what are the limits, what things need to be taken into consideration and when were the Government to decide to go down the slaughter road. Turning that protocol into secondary legislation does not seem to be appropriate. I believe that it would be somewhat strange in terms of legislative procedures were we to go down that road. I suspect that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee would have to take a view on the matter. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will not pursue this and that we shall have the protocol relating to this particular new power and not to the totality of the strategy of disease control.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked why we have used slaughter rather than vaccination. The protocol is intended to cover the general issue of matters that have to be taken into consideration. The next group of amendments relates to explanation in particular circumstances. The noble Lord's Amendment No. 8A—which I have already indicated I propose in principle to accept—states that the Secretary of State must include an explanation of why he proposes to use slaughter rather than vaccination. It is not appropriate to include that in a provision that sets out what has to be taken account of in the protocol. I hope that with that explanation this group of amendments is not pursued.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation. He has strengthened my view that this should be a document that is placed before Parliament. The protocol, at the moment, would be a document which is published and issued by DEFRA in the name of the Secretary of State, but in which Parliament has no locus whatever.
The Minister said that it would be an explanation of where the slaughter powers may be used and that that is different from secondary legislation. But secondary legislation very often is a matter of clarifying, explaining and setting out in more detail—which surely this will involve—what the primary legislation actually means and how it will be carried out. Secondary legislation is very often of that nature. So it seems to me to be appropriate.
The Minister also said that the legislation may have to change. Of course it may have to change. That is very often why secondary legislation is used in particular cases. To put something in concrete in primary legislation might prevent easy change, whereas secondary legislation is a relatively easy process of changing the details of legislation. There is no question of doing that quickly. Subsection (6) of the Minister's proposed new clause covering the disease control (slaughter) protocol states that if the Secretary of State wishes to change the protocol:
"Subsections (2) to (4) apply to a revision of the protocol as they apply to its preparation".
Those subsections state that the Secretary of State has to prepare a document. He will have to prepare the revision of the document. It must indicate the purposes for which any power to which it applies will be exercised; the principal factors to be taken into account; the procedure to be followed in deciding whether in any circumstances or description of circumstances the power is to be exercised; the procedure to be followed by persons who have functions in relation to the exercise of the power; and the means by which a particular decision may be reviewed. So it is complicated stuff. That has to be published.
Then the Secretary of State has to consult. He must send a copy of the draft to such persons and organisations as he thinks are representative of those having an interest in the exercise of the power; consider those drafts; and amend the draft accordingly. So it will be quite a time-consuming procedure anyhow. Therefore, it is not something that can be done in a matter of days, or two or three weeks.
Turning this into the normal kind of parliamentary order, secondary legislation or statutory instrument—of which we receive great long lists every week, and look at some of them and wonder what they mean—is hardly a major imposition. But it does mean that the protocol, and amendments to the protocol when they occur, are laid before Parliament. We and Members of the other place will have a chance to look at them and, if we feel that they are wrong, to raise that matter. That is a fundamental safeguard. It is not a great imposition on the Government; it is hardly any imposition

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whatever. What the Minister says strengthens my view that this is what we should do. I therefore beg leave to listen to the Minister for a minute.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I have had the advantage of seeing the draft protocol. It is in a form that is intended to explain the use of the new power rather than to give traditional and more precise powers, which is the normal purpose of secondary legislation. Can the noble Lord, with his knowledge of secondary legislation, see how that protocol, which has been generally welcomed, could be turned into secondary legislation? I cannot see that. There are other ways that Parliament might wish to debate it, but as a piece of secondary legislation I do not think that that will work. It would certainly not be normal procedure in this House or in the other place.
Lord Moran: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, he has not answered the question that I put to him. I realise that it will inevitably take some time for the process of the draft directive to go towards finality. But, for the purposes of the Bill, is he proposing simply to ignore the work that is going on, or does he envisage a short life for the Bill until that comes through?
Lord Whitty: No, my Lords. If the approach adopted at European level has legal force, it will come through the normal process for dealing with European legislation. The point I am making is that whatever strategy the European Commission decides in future that we should follow, it will require both powers of slaughter and vaccination. It may shift significantly, as Commissioner Byrne has implied, towards vaccination in the wider sense, even if slaughter is used for the diseased animals and their immediate circle. But it will require both powers, so the clause will not be affected. In all circumstances, we will need the option of those powers; the European Union may direct us to a greater priority for one set of powers than for the other, but we shall need both.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I remind your Lordships that my noble friend the Minister has finished responding and has sat down. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised an issue and my noble friend was merely clarifying it. On this occasion, the Minister has long since sat down.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank your Lordships for those multiple interventions. The Minister may well be right to say that the way in which the protocols are phrased at present is not appropriate for statutory instrument. If the amendment were carried, we might well have to rephrase it in the language appropriate for statutory instrument, but the basic content and substance of the protocol is appropriate for an instrument before Parliament. I seek to test the opinion of the House.
5.51 p.m.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne): The Question is that Amendment No. 7A shall be agreed to. As many are of that opinion will say, "Content". To the contrary, "Not-Content". I think the Contents have it. Clear the Bar.
Division called.
The Lord Chancellor: Tellers for the Contents have not been appointed, pursuant to Standing Order 53. A Division therefore cannot take place, and I declare that the "Not-Contents" have it.
[Amendment No. 7B not moved.]
Earl Peel Earl Peel moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 7C:
Line 22, after "exercised" insert ", which shall include the application of such methods of detecting disease in animals as may be available"
The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving the amendment I start by declaring an interest: I own land on which livestock farming takes place.
I welcome the Minister's amendment, Amendment No. 7, in principle, but there undoubtedly remains a strong divergence of opinion about the most effective methods of controlling foot and mouth disease.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl would give way for a moment. I hope that noble Lords who need to have conversations will leave the Chamber. We on the Front Bench cannot hear the noble Earl.
Earl Peel: My Lords, the noble Baroness seems to have had a miraculous effect on the House. A deathly hush has come upon us.
To repeat, there remains a divergence of opinion about the most effective methods of controlling foot and mouth disease. Even after the recent epidemic with all its horrific consequences, there is still no line on whether slaughter or vaccination is the most effective approach—although earlier we decided that vaccination would clearly be a preferable option.
However, if there is one point on which we can all agree, it must be that every effort has to be made to mitigate the slaughter of uninfected animals. From everyone's perspective, the sight of those mass slaughters must be reduced to a minimum. They had a traumatic effect on rural people, farmers and visitors. The whole country was deeply moved by what it saw. Inevitably, many thousands of animals were slaughtered that were not infected by foot and mouth disease. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that that does not happen again. Many figures are bandied around, but I read recently that only 1 per cent of slaughtered sheep were actually infected by foot and mouth disease.
Consequently, I am certain that everyone wants a sufficiently rapid diagnostic testing system to be developed that can be used on the farm, thus

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determining whether foot and mouth disease is present before a wholesale slaughter is undertaken. Such a mechanism would bring enormous confidence to the relationship between the State Veterinary Service and the farming industry and reduce the conflicts and tensions that inevitably build up during such traumatic times.
In his letter of October 14th to me, the Minister kindly confirmed that there were two types of rapid test for the presence of the foot and mouth virus. One of the tests is described by the Minister as,
"a pen-side test that takes 15 minutes and is similar to home pregnancy tests".
That is an interesting turn of phrase; perhaps the Minister has more experience of such matters than I have. The other method is more sophisticated. I shall not describe it to your Lordships; I certainly do not understand it. Although a portable version of that method has now been developed in the USA, it is still relatively difficult to perform in field conditions. Clearly, it is only a question of time before the difficulties are overcome or a company comes forward with an alternative foolproof system. My amendment would include in the Government's amendment, Amendment No. 7—relating to the disease control protocol—the provision that, when such methods become available, their use will be mandatory.
In his letter, the Minister said:
"When validated diagnostic tests for field use become available, DEFRA will ensure that the State Veterinary Service has access to them".
I welcome that important first step, but there is a world of difference between allowing access to something and giving a firm commitment to use it. Given the enormous implications of the slaughter policy, it would be odd—to say the least—or even disingenuous not to use appropriate equipment that would give a foolproof answer as to whether such methods were necessary. Apart from anything else, the saving to the Government in compensation alone, if unaffected animals were not slaughtered, would be enormous. If such equipment were available and the Government were satisfied that it worked, it should be incumbent on vets to use it. Why have it, if it is not to be used to optimum effect?
I leave your Lordships with a final thought. We should imagine the case of a farmer who has had his herd destroyed in circumstances in which it was deemed expedient to do so. How will he feel, knowing that such a testing system existed and that officials chose not to use it? A lingering doubt will remain with that fanner for the rest of his life.
When we were discussing Amendment No. 1, tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, I scribbled down something that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said. He said that the Government would grasp with both hands any opportunity to find ways of preventing mass slaughter. My simple amendment would go a long way to achieving what the noble Lord seeks. I beg to move.
6 p.m.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I support the noble Earl's amendment, although I would go further and say that the Government should use expertise from outside government. The Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, will remember that Dr Colin Fink approached DEFRA with a test that would have differentiated between vaccinated animals and animals that were diseased. Because the scientists in DEFRA had not invented the equipment themselves, they would not hear anything about it. I summarise drastically what happened, but I do not wish to see it happen again. We must use the most up-to-date equipment available, and that requirement should be written into the Bill.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I strongly support the noble Earl's amendment. It is far-sighted, and, as he said, it does not commit the Government to immediate action. When the technology is in place, it should be used.
Professor Fred Brown worked at Pirbright on various tests for foot and mouth disease. However, because of funding difficulties there, he now lives and works in the United States. The testing that has been referred to is at an advanced stage. There may soon be two alternative tests available, one of which was referred to earlier. The amendment is prudent and would ensure that, when such technological advances were made, we could benefit from them.
One of the principles enunciated in the draft European Commission report is that rapid diagnosis is a key factor in tackling and preventing the disease. The amendment would assist that process.
Lord Carter: My Lords, the noble Earl was kind enough to quote what I said about an earlier amendment. That was, of course, a personal view. Although I support the Government, I no longer speak for the Government.
We all understand what the noble Earl is driving at, but I am not sure that the amendment is required. It will be interesting to hear the Minister's view. The government amendment is rather complicated. Subsection (2)(b) of the proposed new clause refers to,
"the principal factors to be taken into account in deciding whether to exercise the power".
Before the government officer can exercise the power of slaughter, he or she must take into account all the principal factors. If there is a diagnostic test available and the Government have decided not to use it, which would be extraordinarily unlikely, the Government would not be taking the principal factors into account, as that would be one of those factors. I suspect that the Government would be subject to judicial review on that. I shall be interested to see whether my noble friend agrees.

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Subsection (2)(b) of the new clause already deals with the point that the noble Earl made so persuasively. The amendment is, therefore—to use a favourite word that appears in all briefings—otiose.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Peel has already fallen over backwards to be reasonable and modest in his amendment. I was pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, seemed to agree with it. My noble friend's proposal—he will correct me if I misunderstood—is that, if effective diagnostic equipment is available, it must be used. My noble friend nods his agreement; I am relieved that I have got it right. The amendment seems reasonable.
The Government will, once again, convey the wrong impression, if they do not accept the amendment. They will give the impression that they are wedded to culling and that they are reluctant to accept anything that dents the armoured plating of their attitudes. I shall be shocked if the Minister cannot accept such an exceedingly modest amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I studied the face of the noble Lord, Lord Carter, and of the Minister while the noble Earl spoke. I expected to see them wreathed in smiles and with their arms open to welcome the amendment.
The amendment is sensible and desirable. It is not otiose. As the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said, subsection (2)(b) of the new clause refers to,
"the principal factors to be taken into account in deciding whether to exercise the power".
However, if we are to take into account the state of diagnostic testing as a factor, why should we not say so? There is something strange about the way the Government are declining to say what they say they believe. They are wanting it to be assumed; to be taken for granted.
I can see no conceivable justification for the Government not accepting the amendment. It has the advantage of providing for the steady development of the science which we know is continuing. It is not asking for anything which is beyond where we actually are—the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carter. We are in a changing situation. Amendment No. 7C provides for the best available diagnostic testing to be used at whatever stage we have reached when the need arises. I hope that the Government will accept the amendment.
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I have not intervened previously, but surrounded in my part of Wales by farms where sheep were culled when they were certainly not infected, I feel strongly about these issues. I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford, who has played a notable part in debates and knows more about the issues than any one of us.
I, too, noted the remarks made in an earlier debate by the noble Lord, Lord Carter. My reaction was different to that of my noble friend Lord Peel. I am
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sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Carter—a man who has great experience in agricultural matters—was in charge and coping in the local area, he would act as he says all Ministers are bound to act. However, enough happened during that episode for us to have considerable doubts that those in charge will always act sensibly or will take account of the requirements unless they are clearly spelled out. The experience that we encountered during that lamentable episode should encourage the Government to write down the rules very clearly so that there can be no doubt where responsibilities lie—not just of Ministers sitting in this place, or presiding over the state, but of those who administer the business on the ground. I support my noble friend Lord Peel. I hope that he will press his amendment.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I support my noble friend's modest amendment. I hope that it is accepted by the Government in the light of the costs and the emotional stress and strain experienced last time. We all agree that we do not want to go through that again. The tremendous advances in science are recognised. I hope that the weight of argument put from all sides of the House will enable the Minister to accept this humble amendment.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint. The amendment is to a new clause which states what aspects should appear in the protocol. Clearly, subsection (2)(b) and (c) would need to involve the circumstances of the technology for testing. They would be principal factors in subsection (2)(b). The circumstances under which the power is exercised are in subsection (2)(c).
The amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Peel, would constrain either one of those provisions. The House will be familiar with the argument—a legalistic one—that if one designates certain of the principal factors or certain of the circumstances, other circumstances do not have the same weight in law. It is already an indirect procedure, but its inclusion would suggest that subsection (2)(c) in Amendment No. 7 was limited by reference to the technology rather than anything else.
The noble Earl described precisely where we are in terms of technology. There are twin-track operations, but neither has yet reached a point where they could be "rolled out" for full field application with full validation for our own, EU and OIE purposes, in a crisis or emergency. It is hoped that that will soon be the case. Even then the availability and the application will take time to be generalised. Therefore, a situation could arise where in some circumstances of an epidemic, diagnostic testing would be available. In others, because of the typography, the limit of the kits, or the limits of the people who could use the kits, diagnostic testing could not be used. Therefore, a degree of flexibility is required.

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I assure the noble Earl, Lord Peel, that subsection (2)(b) which relates to principal factors and subsection (2)(c) which relates to circumstances, includes using up-to-date technology and the protocol can spell that out. To put it in this clause would limit the terms of the protocol and therefore limit the facts that the Secretary of State would be bound to take into account in pursuing a slaughter option. I understand why the proposition is put forward. In certain circumstances, the protocol may move to a position that says testing is mandatory. Until we get to those circumstances it is not sensible to put that on the face of the Bill as a limiting prescription of what should and should not be in the protocol.
Therefore, I hope that on both procedural and operational grounds the noble Earl, Lord Peel, will not pursue the amendment.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have supported me. I am particularly grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, who, I know, has not played a great part in the Bill but whose knowledge is well respected. I am grateful for his words.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, in his inimitable fashion, managed to produce what I can describe only as the Chief Whip's smokescreen. It is effective; we have seen it many times before. The noble Lord basically says that my amendment is unnecessary. Perhaps it is unnecessary, but let us not worry if we have a belt and braces. Nothing could be more effective. I do not understand what the noble Lord was trying to achieve by his remarks.
The issue is the point made by the Minister. We have not, as yet, reached a situation where such diagnostic tests are effective. I acknowledge that; we all acknowledge that. Amendment No. 7C is designed to ensure that when they are up and running and are effective they will be used. I repeat: what is the point of having them if we do not use them? It should be incumbent on the veterinary service to use that. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, says that my amendment compromises flexibility. I simply do not subscribe to that view. I wish to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.
6.18 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7C, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 186; Not-Contents, 127.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Addington, L.

Attlee, E.

Alderdice, L.

Avebury, L.

Allenby of Megiddo, V.

Barker, B.

Arran, E.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Astor, V.

Biffen, L.

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Blaker, L.

Laing of Dunphail, L.

Blatch, B.

Lamont of Lerwick, L.

Bledisloe, V.

Lawson of Blaby, L.

Boardman, L.

Lester of Herne Hill, L.

Bowness, L.

Linklater of Butterstone, B.

Bradshaw, L.

Liverpool, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Livsey of Talgarth, L.

Brittan of Spennithorne, L.

Luke, L.

Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.

Lyell, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Burnham, L.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Byford, B.

MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Maclennan of Rogart, L.

Carlile of Berriew, L.

McNally, L.

Carlisle of Bucklow, L.

Maddock, B.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Mallalieu, B.

Chalker of Wallasey, B.

Mancroft, L.

Clement-Jones, L.

Mar, C.

Coe, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Colwyn, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Cope of Berkeley, L.

Mayhew of Twysden, L.

Cox, B.

Michie of Gallanach, B.

Craig of Radley, L.

Monro of Langholm, L.

Crickhowell, L.

Monson, L.

Dahrendorf, L.

Moran, L.

Dean of Harptree, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Denham, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Dholakia, L.

Newby, L.

Dixon-Smith, L.

Noakes, B.

Dundee, E.

Northbrook, L.

Eden of Winton, L.

Northesk, E.

Elles, B.

Norton of Louth, L.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

O'Cathain, B.

Elton, L.

O'Neill of Bengarve, B.

Ezra, L.

Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.

Falkland, V.

Onslow, E.

Fearn, L.

Palmer, L.

Feldman, L.

Park of Monmouth, B.

Flather, B.

Parkinson, L.

Fookes, B.

Patten, L.

Forsyth of Drumlean, L.

Peel, E. [Teller]

Freeman, L.

Perry of Southwark, B.

Garel-Jones, L.

Perry of Walton, L.

Geddes, L.

Peyton of Yeovil, L.

Glentoran, L.

Plumb, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.

Greaves, L.

Pym, L.

Greenway, L.

Rawlings, B.

Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.

Razzall, L.

Hambro, L.

Redesdale, L.

Hamwee, B.

Rees, L.

Hanham, B.

Rennard, L.

Hanson, L.

Renton, L.

Harris of Richmond, B.

Roberts of Conwy, L.

Henley, L.

Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.

Hereford, Bp.

Rogan, L.

Higgins, L.

Roper, L.

Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.

Rotherwick, L.

Hogg, B.

Russell-Johnston, L.

Holme of Cheltenham, L.

St John of Fawsley, L.

Hooper, B.

Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.

Hooson, L.

Sandberg, L.

Howe, E.

Scott of Needham Market, B.

Howe of Aberavon, L.

Seccombe, B.

Howell of Guildford, L.

Selkirk of Douglas, L.

Hunt of Wirral, L.

Selsdon, L.

Hurd of Westwell, L.

Sharman, L.

Jacobs, L.

Sharp of Guildford, B.

Jenkin of Roding, L.

Sharples, B.

Jopling, L.

Shaw of Northstead, L.

Kimball, L.

Shutt of Greetland, L.

King of Bridgwater, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Kingsland, L.

Smith of Clifton, L.

Kirkham, L.

Stewartby, L.

Knight of Collingtree, B.

Stodart of Leaston, L.

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Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Wade of Chorlton, L.

Strange, B.

Wakeham, L.

Swinfen, L.

Walker of Worcester, L.

Taverne, L.

Wallace of Saltaire, L.

Tebbit, L.

Walmsley, B.

Tenby, V.

Walpole, L.

Thomas of Gresford, L.

Warnock, B.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Weatherill, L.

Thomas of Walliswood, B.

Wigoder, L.

Tope, L.

Wilcox, B.

Waddington, L.

Williamson of Horton, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L. [Teller]

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.

Hilton of Eggardon, B.

Ahmed, L.

Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.

Alli, L.

Hollis of Heigham, B.

Andrews, B.

Howie of Troon, L.

Ashley of Stoke, L.

Hoyle, L.

Ashton of Upholland, B.

Hughes of Woodside, L.

Bach, L.

Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

Barnett, L.

Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)

Bassam of Brighton, L.

Berkeley, L.

Islwyn, L.

Bernstein of Craigweil, L.

Jay of Paddington, B.

Billingham, B.

Judd, L.

Blackstone, B.

King of West Bromwich, L.

Borrie, L.

Kirkhill, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Lea of Crondall, L.

Bragg, L.

Levy, L.

Brett, L.

Lipsey, L.

Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.

Listowel, E.

Brookman, L.

Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

McCarthy, L.

Burlison, L.

Macdonald of Tradeston, L.

Carter, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]

Chan, L.

Christopher, L.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

Clark of Windermere, L.

Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.

Clinton-Davis, L.

Mason of Barnsley, L.

Cohen of Pimlico, B.

Merlyn-Rees, L.

Corbett of Castle Vale, L.

Mishcon, L.

Crawley, B.

Morgan, L.

Darcy de Knayth, B.

Morris of Aberavon, L.

David, B.

Morris of Manchester, L.

Davies of Coity, L.

Nicol, B.

Davies of Oldham, L.

Orme, L.

Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.

Parekh, L.

Desai, L.

Patel, L.

Dixon, L.

Patel of Blackburn, L.

Donoughue, L.

Pitkeathley, B.

Dormand of Easington, L.

Plant of Highfield, L.

Dubs, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Elder, L.

Puttnam, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Radice, L.

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Filkin, L.

Rea, L.

Finlay of Llandaff, B.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Fyfe of Fairfield, L.

Richard, L.

Gale, B.

Sawyer, L.

Gibson of Market Rasen, B.

Scotland of Asthal, B.

Gilbert, L.

Sheldon, L.

Gladwin of Clee, L.

Simon, V.

Goldsmith, L.

Skidelsky, L.

Gordon of Strathblane, L.

Smith of Gilmorehill, B.

Goudie, B.

Smith of Leigh, L.

Gould of Potternewton, B.

Stone of Blackheath, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Grenfell, L.

Temple-Morris, L.

Grocott, L. [Teller]

Tomlinson, L.

Hardy of Wath, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Harris of Haringey, L.

Uddin, B.

Harrison, L.

Varley, L.

Haskins, L.

Walker of Doncaster, L.

Hayman, B.

Warner, L.

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Warwick of Undercliffe, B.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Whitaker, B.

Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)

Whitty, L.

Wilkins, B.

Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
6.30 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 7D to 7Q, as amendments to Amendment No. 7, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 7, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 8:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause—
"EXPLANATION OF PREVENTIVE SLAUGHTER
In the 1981 Act the following section is inserted after section 32C (as inserted by section (Disease control (slaughter) protocol) above)—
"32D EXPLANATION OF PREVENTIVE SLAUGHTER

(1) This section applies to a power exercisable by the Secretary of State under—

(a) paragraph 3(1)(c) of Schedule 3;

(b) any other provision of that Schedule as amended by an order under section 32A(1)(a).

(2) The Secretary of State must not exercise a power to which this section applies unless before he first exercises the power in relation to any description of circumstances he publishes his reasons for the exercise of the power in relation to the circumstances of that description.

(3) If the Secretary of State does not comply with subsection (2) in relation to any description of circumstances anything done in connection with the exercise of the power in such circumstances must be taken to have been done without lawful authority.""

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we all hope that the Government will never have to have recourse to the preventive slaughter power, but should we have to do so we must be open about the reason for using it. That is the reason for the amendment. It will enshrine in the Bill a requirement for the Secretary of State to publish the reasons for using the new slaughter power in any given set of circumstances before the power is exercised. We fully intend for any use of the new slaughter power to be as open and as transparent as possible.
It may be for the convenience of the House if I speak briefly to Amendment No. 8A, which is grouped with this amendment. We have already made clear that vaccination will be considered as a disease control option in any future outbreak. It follows that if we decide that the new slaughter power should be used, in publishing the reasons for using it we must explain why the alternative options are not appropriate. However, we understand the concern that mention of the reasons for not using vaccination should be explicit on the face of the Bill. We therefore accept the principle of Amendment No. 8A and give a commitment to make the necessary amendment to the Bill at Third Reading. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am provisionally grateful to the Government. I shall be eternally grateful if I am happy with their wording. I am sure that my wording is brilliant and far better than anything the Government can come up with. But I do not expect them to agree to that and I await with interest the Government's amendment at Third Reading.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I welcome the requirement for an explanation of preventive slaughter in Amendment No. 8. This is related to everything that we have discussed today. An explanation of that policy is important because it makes it more transparent for those concerned with the problem.
Subsection (2) obliges the Secretary of State first to publish his reasons for the exercise of his or her power to carry out a preventive slaughter. In principle, this is extremely important because we are likely to be dealing with animals in a firebreak hole, which may well be some distance from the outbreak of the infection. At the very least, the owners of such, almost certainly healthy, animals deserve a satisfactory explanation of why the Secretary of State proposes to slaughter them. As I am sure we all accept, the decision has to be based on sound, published veterinary and scientific advice, and not on wider factors such as social and economic considerations.
Subsection (3) of the proposed new Section 32D states that if the Secretary of State does not comply with the requirement to publish a statement of reasons before proceeding to slaughter, then his or her action must be taken to have been done without lawful authority. I merely ask: what does that mean? The animal will have been slaughtered; is it intended that the owners will be able to sue the Secretary of State for damages because he or she had failed to comply with the procedure set down in statute? I pose the question. We should welcome clarification on this point.
I believe that we have to find a description of "circumstances", to include details of the area affected. That could mean that if the epidemic spread, the Minister would have to make separate statements for each area—for Devon, for Warwickshire, for Cheshire, for Cumbria, or wherever it may be. Therefore we need to proceed and push for the detail of where the Secretary of State will publish and for what reasons. Will he or she use various regional offices, NFU offices and so on, to do that? It is a matter that must be taken further.
My only other point relates to subsection (2) of the preventive slaughter clause in Amendment No. 8. I should like an explanation of the explanation. Subsection (2) states:
"The Secretary of State must not exercise a power to which this section applies unless before he first exercises the power in relation to any description of circumstances he publishes his reasons for the exercise of the power in relation to the circumstances of that description".
What on earth does that mean? I have read it several times—and I read into it—but I am concerned for those who may be affected by the Bill who are reading it for the first time. They may think that a bit of gobbledegook has been written into the Bill that is
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totally unnecessary and uncalled for. In accepting the amendment—I am delighted that Amendment No. 8A, which completes the clause and which we fully support, is to be accepted—I would merely ask the Minister to consider rewording subsection (2) and putting it into English.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Plumb. The Plain English Campaign would love this for its gobbledegook prize.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I should hate to fall foul of the Plain English Campaign. Noble Lords have probably read the text too often. The first time I read it, the text seemed absolutely clear. If one continues to read it, it may become less so. I shall consider whether there is a simpler way to express its meaning. I believe that it means that the Secretary of State may not do what he or she is not legally entitled to do. But that is my précis, and I shall check. It does not sound to me like lawyers' language.
In answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, the subsection does not of itself create a right to damages. It means that the Government need to take it into account. They could obviously be subject to court proceedings should that be appropriate in individual circumstances. It is almost impossible to answer a hypothetical question in this context. What would happen if a Secretary of State acted without his or her power is an impossible question to answer because it would depend on the circumstances. We are defining in the legislation the powers that the Secretary of State will have. If the noble Lord is not happy with that explanation, I shall write to him and send copies of the letter to other noble Lords.
Whether it should be an area-by-area publication because of regional and local variations will of course depend entirely on the circumstances. Whether it was an outbreak such as that in the 1960s, where it was contained geographically, or whether it affected a wider area or dispersed areas, would govern the way publication was made. But publication would have to be reasonably available for those who needed the information.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 8A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 8, not moved.]
Clause 3 [Slaughter of vaccinated animals]:
[Amendment No. 9 not moved.]
Lord Whitty Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 2, line 40, leave out from "compensation" to end of line 41 and insert "in accordance with subsections (4A) and (4B).
(4A) In the case of an animal treated with vaccine for the purpose of preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease—

(a) if the animal was infected with foot-and-mouth disease the compensation is the value of the animal immediately before it became so infected;

(b) in any other case the compensation is the value of the animal immediately before it was slaughtered.

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(4B) In the case of an animal treated with vaccine for the purpose of preventing the spread of a disease specified by order under subsection (1) the compensation is of such an amount as may be prescribed by order of the Secretary of State.
(4C) In arriving at a value under subsection (4A) above no account is to be taken of the fact that the animal had been treated with vaccine as mentioned in that subsection."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 13.
I said earlier that, in adopting a vaccination strategy, the Government's presumption would be that a vaccinate-to-live strategy would be appropriate, but that there could be circumstances in which a vaccinate-and-kill policy might still be necessary. In those circumstances—the circumstances pursued in the Netherlands during the last epidemic—the question arises of compensation for animals which are vaccinated and are then compulsorily slaughtered.
There are strong grounds for clarifying that position. There is, in particular, a need to ensure maximum compliance with the vaccination process in the first place: if animals subsequently had to be slaughtered, farmers would receive the same compensation as they would for non-vaccinated animals. That is what the amendment prescribes. I commend it to the House.
Amendment No. 13 would simply add a reference to the order-making power for diseases other than foot and mouth; namely, the proposed new subsection (4B) in Amendment No. 10. As we discussed in Committee, the position regarding compensation for other diseases is not consistent with the 100 per cent compensation in FMD cases; so different considerations would apply. The amendment simply makes the cross-reference. So far as concerns foot and mouth, Amendment No. 10 would make it clear that 100 per cent compensation would be available in that case. I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for writing to us on this amendment. His letter clearly said that he had listened to the weight of argument about the levels of compensation for slaughtered FMD vaccinates. We are grateful to him for introducing this amendment. It helps to allay the fears of farming colleagues outside this Chamber.
I should still like to draw the House's attention to the rider which the Minister adds to his letter. It relates to a matter that we shall need to address in the long term. I do not raise this issue to worry the Minister now. He said that we should be aware that the general and wider issue of harmonising compensation regimes for animal diseases are being reviewed. The way in which these matters are taken forward may be a subject for debate at a later date. In the mean time, I thank the noble Lord for having listened to the weight of argument in Committee and for his courtesy in responding to us all.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, we on these Benches thank the Minister for introducing this provision. We feel that it offers great assurance following our earlier debates.
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The issue of the valuation of vaccinated animals is very important. I point out to the Minister that the supermarket industry ought to take due note of what is going on. During the last foot and mouth outbreak, it was said that there was no market for vaccinated animals. If this is done properly, the supermarkets will take due note and will pay a fair price. What happens in this respect may give the industry grounds for confidence.
6.45 p.m.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I find it extraordinary that there is still dispute as regards what the supermarkets think about vaccinated animals. Animals are being vaccinated all the time. We give our sheep Heptovac vaccinations twice a year against all kinds of nasty diseases. Poultry are vaccinated on a regular basis—as are cattle. What on earth is different in people's minds between vaccination for foot and mouth and all the other vaccinations? I am very pleased that the noble Lord has seen fit to introduce this amendment. I am grateful to him.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I agree totally with the noble Baroness that we need to banish this idea, and the Government have it in their power to do so.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 2, line 40, leave out from "compensation" to end of line 41 and insert "equal to the full market value of the vaccinated animal at the time of vaccination or at the time of slaughter, whichever is the greater."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment is grouped with Amendment No. 15 standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Peel.
The recent foot and mouth outbreak has now been analysed in three fact-finding reviews: that of the National Audit Office; the Anderson inquiry; and the Follett inquiry. All three agree that analysis of the figures indicates that action—and inaction—by the Government and by government departments resulted in the slaughter of millions of healthy, unaffected animals.
On the face of it, the owners and keepers of contiguously culled animals were innocent of any active involvement in the spread of foot and mouth. Their animals were not infected; there were no dangerous contacts involved. The decision to end the lives of most of those animals was not taken by vets or farmers to spare them unnecessary suffering. It was taken in pursuit of a government reaction to the situation that they faced. Even the slaughter on official welfare grounds was caused by government-imposed restrictions, not by any failing on the part of the farming community or the vets responsible for the health and well-being of those animals.
Farmers lost income. They incurred costs for which they had not budgeted, not least on expensive disinfectants—some of dubious worth. Their cash-flows were seriously disrupted and many are still

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suffering emotionally. Many of those affected have received no compensation at all. More successful farmers than I would say that there are three major decisions which govern their success each year: what to grow; when to start; and when to harvest. In the case of animals, that is rendered as: when to go to market.
If the Government interfere, they should do so in a way which gives farmers the best possible recompense, while at the same time maintaining openness in their calculation. The Government were not ready for the foot and mouth outbreak. The rules on compensation had not been examined for some time—or had not been examined seriously. Mistakes were made, as has been recognised by the Government and by the Minister. I agree that this should not happen again. But do not penalise the farmers of the future for the inadequacies of the past. I beg to move.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, the valuation exercise has been interesting. Some valuations are turning out to be extremely silly. It is self-evident that if you put a pile of pound notes in front of someone and say, "Help yourself", that person will help himself. You cannot blame people for helping themselves. As was reported in The Times this morning, the National Audit Office has cited cases of major over-valuation and over-compensation. That brings government, the farming industry and everyone else involved into disrepute.
Surely it is essential that the basis of the valuation is clear and precise. It should not be open to doubt. Following the last outbreak, some people did not receive money; I am afraid that others received too much. It would be wrong for those involved in the farming industry not to recognise that. I hope that this amendment will make the basis of the valuation clearer from everyone's point of view. I hope that we are talking about a fair market valuation—that is important—not an over-inflated one, but even less an under-inflated one. That is what we must aim at. In that way, people will not use the valuation as a means of blaming others when things go wrong—which happened to a certain extent in the last outbreak.
Earl Peel: My Lords, it may be helpful if I speak to Amendment No. 15. It is grouped with Amendment No. 11.
Disregarding any changes that the Minister wishes to implement in the future—we have seen further evidence of that in the press today; some noble Lords may find it somewhat disquieting—at present the Government compensate owners at the full market value. However, with vaccination likely to play a much greater role in any subsequent outbreak, the compensation issue becomes less generous. Farmers may find themselves worse off if their animals are vaccinated but not slaughtered. Amendment No. 10 deals with slaughtered animals which have been vaccinated. Amendment No. 15 deals with those animals which have been vaccinated but are not slaughtered because they did not contract the disease.
As many noble Lords will be aware, there was some debate during the foot and mouth crisis as to whether vaccination was a viable or desirable option. It has
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always been alleged that the Prime Minister met with Ben Gill, the President of the National Farmers Union, to discuss the issue. Ben Gill said that he would be happy for vaccination to take place provided that those animals were accepted into the food chain. I understand that that idea was dropped for the simple reason that retailers, in particular the supermarkets, said that they were reluctant to accept such animals.
I am sure the Minister will tell us if that is a gross simplification of events. However, if there is any truth in the matter, it highlights the difficulty for farmers with vaccinated animals. There appears to be a stigma against vaccinated animals. Farmers are likely to be worse off and they will receive no compensation unless the animals are slaughtered.
Another possible situation is that a two-tier market may develop by which farmers are paid a lesser rate for vaccinated stock. New subsection (4C) of Amendment No. 10 states:
"In arriving at a value under subsection (4A) above no account is to be taken of the fact that the animal had been treated with vaccine".
One can deduce from that that the Government are aware that discounted values for vaccinated animals exist, and are likely to exist, thus creating a two-tier market. Should such cases occur, surely the whole vaccination policy will become discredited and farmers will be encouraged to pursue the old slaughter policies—the one thing that we are attempting to get away from.
I fully acknowledge that this a difficult issue for the Government. I also believe that on medical grounds there is no reason why vaccinated animals or their produce should not enter the food chain. But this reluctance to accept vaccinated animals appears to exist. That conflicts with the point which the Minister explained in his letter to me which states:
"The acceptance of products from vaccinated animals entering the food chain is critical to the viability of a vaccinate-to-live policy".
I am sure we all subscribe to that.
It is a probing amendment. I acknowledge that for the Government to embark on a full compensatory scheme for vaccinated animals would be totally inappropriate. However, we have a real problem which needs to be addressed. How do the Government propose to overcome the problem and give those farmers with vaccinated animals the confidence that those animals and their produce will be received into the food chain without discounted values? Presumably discussions are taking place with the Food Standard Agency, the Consumer Council and in particular the retailers. We deserve an explanation as to how the problem can be resolved if the Government will not step in to offer compensation, thus discriminating against those vaccinated animals when there is compensation for slaughtered animals.
We deserve an explanation from the Minister as to how he and his department will ensure that vaccinated animals are not discriminated against in the market

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place; otherwise I fear that the vaccination scheme will be discredited. Farmers will lose confidence in it. That is the one message we do not want to give out.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, I support the noble Earl. There is consumer resistance to beasts which have been vaccinated or given hormones in order to fatten. The public are naturally suspicious about anything unnatural occurring to livestock.
Now is the time for the Government to be clear about the exact procedures if—heaven forbid—there were another outbreak. There is added concern about the future valuation of livestock, with a corps of valuers and fixed prices for a cow, ewe, ram and so on. As I have said in previous debates on the Bill, the word "compensation" is an anomaly. While one is paid a sum of money for the value of the sheep or cow on the day it was slaughtered, it in no way compensates for the loss of profits over the three or four years ahead from a flock of sheep or a herd of dairy cattle.
The Bill should state clearly who will do the valuation: whether it is to be a mutual decision between the farmer and the department or from a national list of valuers. Is the valuation to be undertaken as at present? There has been some criticism but in the early days by and large it was fair. Farmers want to know the position as regards vaccinated stock. As the noble Earl said, there will be repercussions on the value of a beast which has been vaccinated because the public do not like the thought of buying vaccinated meat.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, the noble Countess reminded us that there is a long precedent of animal products which have been injected with all kinds of vaccines coming into the food chain. Sheep are routinely injected for pulpy kidney disease and other sheep diseases. There seems to be no problem about their coming into the food chain. Anyone who knows the industry knows that animals injected with these vaccines come commonly into the food chain.
I hope that the Minister will outline the measures taken to protect the public who are offered vaccinated meat. I assume that before a vaccine for farm animals is licensed for use by the agricultural industry, the relevant scientific bodies have examined, tested and monitored it, and that the Minister is told that it is safe to put it on the market. I imagine that such vaccines are subject to the same process as medicines that are licensed for human use. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether the foot and mouth vaccine has been the subject of studies comparable to those carried out previously on the other vaccines to which the noble Countess and I referred. I am not sure what the monitoring process consists of, but we need to know at this stage whether the foot and mouth vaccine has been cleared by the scientific bodies.
As the noble Earl, Lord Peel, said, Amendment No. 11 is a probing amendment. The same applies to
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Amendment No. 15. Everything depends on what the Government mean by the words at the bottom of page 2 of the Bill—
"compensation of such an amount as may be prescribed by order of the Secretary of State".
Everything depends on what the Minister tells us about the Government's intended approach. If the basis is not satisfactory, we must return to the matter at Third Reading to ensure that specific terms on the exact amount that the Government have in mind, which the House and Parliament understand, are written into Clause 3. If there is just a vague assessment of the amount, we ought to insist at Third Reading on inserting a much more specific provision.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am horrified to feel so many negative vibes. What is the farming community doing? It should be promoting its animals and saying that they are being vaccinated to keep them healthy and to provide the public with healthy meat.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, of course the Medicines Control Agency vets the medicines that are given to animals just as much as it does our medicines. Why are we farmers not saying that our animals are being kept healthy by vaccinating them? Why are we whinging about supermarkets? Why are we not telling them that there is nothing wrong with vaccinated meat?
I can see no reason for the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Peel. There is no need to compensate for a vaccinated animal that is still healthy. The farming community must get up off its bottom and stop expecting the Government to do absolutely everything for it. We hear constantly about what the Government must do. I agree that the Food Standards Agency can encourage and support, but it is up to us as farmers to promote our products. We are not doing that; we are expecting somebody else to do it throughout.
Earl Peel: My Lords, before the noble Countess sits down, is she telling us that to the best of her knowledge—which, we acknowledge, is very considerable—that there is no two-tier market between non-vaccinated and vaccinated animals, and that retailers show no prejudice towards vaccinated animals?
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, the only real two-tier market that I know of is the organic and non-organic one. Some organic animals are vaccinated but most are not. That is the only time when there should be a two-tier market.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, during the foot and mouth outbreak, vets in Argentina stated clearly in an interview that all meat leaving Argentina, as a susceptible country, had been vaccinated. I am pretty sure that some of it found its way from certain regions of Argentina to supermarket shelves in this country. We need to be forthright in acknowledging that vaccinated meat is available already and that if British animals are involved, a two-tier market should not

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occur. The noble Earl is quite right to table a probing amendment on the matter to see what the Minister says about it.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—and I know this is a trick—discussion about inoculated Argentine animals has taken place in the House previously. At that time, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that he would respond to me on the issue. I am not making an accusation, but I feel that he was not entirely sure of the facts. I hope that the noble Lord can press the Minister to answer the question on inoculated animals from Argentina, Uruguay, and other countries, which I am certain are coming into this country. You will appreciate that I am trying to get around a procedural point.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the noble Earl should know that it is two strikes and he is out.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I can only say to the noble Earl that I have already made that point.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, during his first, helpful intervention, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, pointed out that there were problems with the compensation system. Those problems are being addressed.
Amendments Nos. 11 and 15 suggest that we create a two-tier compensation system. However, rather than end a tendency to a two-tier market of vaccinated and non-vaccinated meat, such a system would encourage it. The noble Earl, Lord Peel, over-simplified history but nevertheless it was indicated at one point that food-chain processors and supermarkets would not accept vaccinated meat or milk. As the noble Countess spelt out, that is not rational nor is it practised. Indeed, to answer the noble Earl's second point, consumers in supermarkets here and throughout Europe do not seem to differentiate between vaccinated meat, which is imported in accordance with European standards, and non-vaccinated meat. So, there should not be a problem; there is only a slight hangover problem.
The point is made not just in my letter to the noble Earl. The Follett report by the Royal Society states that if we are to adopt a vaccinate-to-live policy as mainstream, meat and meat products from vaccinated animals must enter the food chain normally; that is to say, on the same terms as the product of a non-vaccinated animal. That is a pre-condition to the success of a vaccination-to-live policy. It is rational, and, if we are all to support a vaccinate-to-live policy, it would be helpful for the farming industry, retailers and processors to make that clear. I hope that we support it; in which case it would be inappropriate to have separate prices for vaccinated and slaughtered animals. Compensation for vaccination as such would not therefore arise. To do something different, as the noble Earl's amendment suggests—as, to an extent, does the noble Baroness's—would be to go in the wrong direction. We should encourage the industry as a whole—the whole food chain, including consumers—to accept, as in practice they do, that
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vaccinated meat and meat from a healthy animal are one and the same in quality and in every other regard. That is a sine qua non of an effective general vaccinate-to-live policy.
I hope that I have answered the point and that it will not be pursued.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister will realise that we were seeking clarification. It is difficult when half the people do not understand the implications of a vaccinate-to-live policy. I agree with the noble Countess, Lady Mar, that there are chickens and all sorts of other regularly inoculated meats coming in. One of our problems is that it is common practice, but people are not aware of it. The House needs to recognise that the foot and mouth outbreak highlighted many myths and misunderstandings about the way in which some of our livestock are produced. I hope that the Minister takes that point away and considers it. People saw animals burned on pyres and thought that there was something wrong with the meat. That is why the issue has arisen.
The Minister is aware that we are pressing for a vaccinate-to-live policy. However, unless we all understand the options and deal with the issue head-on, the public will feel that many questions are left unanswered.
I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the amendment. I hope that what other colleagues have said shows that there is still a hurdle to overcome. We need much better general understanding of the issue. Although I accept that vaccination was mentioned last time the issue was raised, the Government did not answer the question then. They said that they would take the view of the industry and of consumers, but there was no outcome. The issue has dragged on and here we are six months later without it having been answered or addressed.
I hope that the amendments have given us a chance to clarify the current position and the Government's thinking on where we are going. Before Third Reading, the industry and others interested in the issue will have a chance to make representations to us if they are still unhappy. I am grateful to the Minister for what he said, but we still have quite a long way to go. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Turner of Camden): My Lords, I must tell your Lordships that if Amendment No. 12 is carried, I cannot call Amendment No. 13 because of pre-emption.
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 12:
Page 3, line 4, leave out subsection (6) and insert—
"( ) No order may be made under subsection (4) unless a draft of the order has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 40. Disease of any kind is costly and emotionally racking. In the normal course of events, it is dealt with case by case in an atmosphere

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of practised care. When disease assumes epidemic proportions, regular routines are superseded. Regional and national priorities take precedence and obviously the Government take the lead. Whatever happens, Parliament should be required to examine the proposed actions and do its best to ensure that they are timely, proportionate, well managed and even-handed.
The Bill uses the positive resolution procedure for orders authorising slaughter to prevent the spread of disease, orders instigating vaccination against foot and mouth and orders for testing samples from animals possibly affected by diseases other than foot and mouth. Why, then, have the Government chosen to water down the effectiveness of Parliament's scrutiny on three issues: compensation for the slaughtered or vaccinated animals; orders under the scrapie provisions; and the additional diseases on the list in the schedule?
Will the Minister clarify the situation? I do not see why some issues require positive resolutions and others fall under the negative resolution procedure. The aim of the amendments is to tease out the Government's thinking. I beg to move.
7.15 p.m.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, obviously, during the drafting of a Bill there has to be discussion about which parliamentary procedure is most appropriate for individual provisions. We felt that the negative resolution procedure was the most appropriate level of scrutiny for both the issues highlighted by the noble Baroness.
The noble Baroness referred to the need for matters to be dealt with in a timely way. That is one factor. However, some parliamentary scrutiny is retained. It is a matter of judgment.
The House has the benefit of the considerations of the delegated powers scrutiny committee. The fact that the committee did not object to the provision shows that it understood, on balance, the judgment that was taken.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her response. I have to ask again whether the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has examined the Bill since it was altered in Committee, or are we assuming that it considered only the Bill as originally designed?
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, my understanding is that the provisions to which the noble Baroness refers are not new and therefore the delegated powers scrutiny committee has already had an opportunity to consider them.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Whitty Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 3, line 4, leave out "(4)" and insert "(4B)"
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 14 not moved.]
Earl Peel Earl Peel had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 15:
After Clause 3, insert the following new clause—
"COMPENSATION FOR VACCINATED ANIMALS WHICH ARE NOT SLAUGHTERED
In the 1981 Act the following section is inserted after section 16A (as inserted by section 3 above)—
"16B Compensation for vaccinated animals which are not slaughtered

(1) This section applies to any animal which has been treated with vaccine for the purpose of preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease or such other disease as the Secretary of State may by order specify under section 16A of this Act, and which the Secretary of State has not caused to be slaughtered.

(2) For any animal to which this section applies the Secretary of State must pay compensation in respect of any diminution in the value of the animal which is attributable to the treatment of the animal with vaccine.""

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have spoken to the amendment and I moved it earlier, but I should like to take this opportunity to reply to what the Minister said. I was a little disappointed—
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I believe that the noble Earl has to move his amendment in order to have it before the House. He may not speak to it unless it has been moved.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I moved the amendment earlier.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the noble Earl spoke to the amendment, but he did not move it.
Earl Peel: My Lords, in that case, I am sure that the noble Baroness is absolutely right. In proposing the amendment, I shall respond to the comments made by the Minister.
I was a little disappointed by what the Minister said; he did not appear to recognise what I believe to be the possibility of a two-tier market. I was extremely interested to hear the noble Countess, Lady Mar, say that it was up to farmers to persuade the supermarkets. Farmers have been trying to persuade supermarkets for a long time, without a great deal of success. I hope that we shall be able to ensure that the difficulty of a possible two-tier market will not manifest itself.
I was simply seeking an unequivocal assurance from the Minister that if such a difficulty arose, his department would make every effort with the consumer councils, the Food Standards Agency and all the various bodies concerned to ensure that the farmers with vaccinated animals received an amount equivalent to that received by farmers selling non-vaccinated animals or their produce. I hope that the Minister will do that, but I cannot see much point in pursuing the issue now.
[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]
Clause 4 [Scrapie]:
The Countess of Mar The Countess of Mar moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 3, line 11, at end insert—
"(2) The Schedule shall not come into force until either—

(a) transmissible bovine spongiform encephalopathy is found to occur naturally in sheep, or

(b) there is a reliable biochemical test that differentiates fully between scrapie and bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or

(c) the route of transmission of scrapie becomes known."

The noble Countess said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 17, tabled in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Livsey, and to Amendment No. 18, which stands in my name. In addition, I propose to speak to Amendment No. 48. Although it has not been included in this group of amendments on the groupings list, this amendment refers to "genetically susceptible sheep" and, therefore, applies to this grouping. I apologise to the House for not picking up that omission before this point.
I am deeply unhappy about this part of the Bill. We are being asked to legislate on the basis of incomplete knowledge. The science of genetics is new, fascinating and exciting. However, it is in its infancy. This part of the Bill seems to be based upon the obsessive supposition that sheep are the hidden repository for BSE, which, in turn, is the cause of variant CJD in humans.
We know that scrapie has been endemic in the UK national flock for more than 250 years. I am reliably informed that it was mentioned in the Bible. Humans have eaten almost every part of the animal for all of that time; indeed, one of my childhood treats was poached sheeps' brains on toast. Scientists have repeatedly tried to infect sheep with BSE by natural means and have failed. They are now saying that perhaps their susceptibility to scrapie is masking a susceptibility to BSE. How long is a piece of string? What exactly is the risk? Are we not more in danger of obliterating a part of the genetic pool of our sheep flock—a pool that has been built up over many centuries to provide us with wool and meat of excellent quality from sheep that are hardy and good mothers and well adapted to our regional variabilities?
Among others, the noble Lord, Lord May, advised us in Committee to exercise caution. We have only to look at the DEFRA website. After a brief description of the work being done on the Cheviot flock at the Institute for Animal Health in Edinburgh, the author of the website acknowledges:
"Cheviots' coating for alanine at [codon] 136 (with glutamine at 171) are still susceptible to certain different strains of scrapie (often called 'C-type scrapie') as well as BSE… Thus, because it seems as if resistance is not absolute, breeding policies that aim to produce one particular genotype may produce a population that is resistant to one strain of scrapie, but render the flock more susceptible to other strains".
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I am very concerned about this situation. The website continues:
"Breeding sheep that are homozygous for arginine at codon 171 may therefore prove to be beneficial in an effort to increase scrapie resistance, but gene frequencies in some breeds will inevitably render some breeding programmes difficult if other desirable characteristics are not to be lost in selecting for scrapie resistance".
I have in mind resistance to foot rot, which is a horrible disease in sheep. It is extremely painful for the animal, and very prevalent. The website also points out that that there are sheep in Australia and in New Zealand that are genetically susceptible to scrapie, and yet both those countries are considered to be scrapie free.
The website directs us to the Scientific Opinion of the Scientific Steering Committee of the European Commission, entitled The Policy of Breeding and Genotyping of Sheep—that is to say, the issue of whether sheep should be bred to be resistant to scrapie. This opinion was adopted by the committee in July 1999. I shall resist the temptation to précis the whole paper, interesting though it is. In its conclusions, the working group concludes that,
"the possibility that sheep may harbour a latent scrapie infection exists"—
at this stage, a possibility, not a certainty. The paper continues to say:
"If BSE would have infected sheep, which is not certain today, and if BSE transmits and behaves in sheep in a manner similar to scrapie, for which there are some experimental indications, then a similar strategy for BSE and scrapie should be adopted"—
there are many "ifs".
The working group recommends that the European Union should analyse and evaluate the breeding programmes current in a number of European countries, including the United Kingdom; and that individual EU countries should start to genotype large numbers of animals in order to acquire a view on the distribution of the genotypes in their national flocks. I know that this is already being done in the UK: we know which breeds of sheep are more susceptible to scrapie than others.
The working group further recommends that strong consideration should be given to the use of appropriate resistant strains of sheep, coupled with the development of, and extensive use of, validated diagnostic tests. I know that that is beginning to be done under the National Scrapie Plan. However, there is a "but", which I consider to be rather a big but. The group says:
"Before embarking on large scale breeding of sheep towards maximal resistant genotypes, according to the different breeds involved, consideration should be given to the phenotypic characteristics".
I am sorry that the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, is not able to be with us this evening. However, I gather that he is making a good recovery from his operation. I wonder whether noble Lords recall him telling us about the Scottish Blackface sheep. There has not been a case of scrapie in Scottish Blackface sheep, yet, according to current knowledge, they are very genetically susceptible. Are we going to wipe out 95 per cent of the Scottish Blackface sheep in order to fulfil the requirements of this part of the Bill?
For many years MAFF, and now DEFRA, monitored flocks of sheep and herds of goats—I had to bring goats into my remarks—under a voluntary scrapie scheme. We have never belonged to this scheme. I have to tell the Minister that we have now withdrawn from the National Scrapie Plan. My husband became very unhappy about the way that the plan was going, and about the requirement that we should kill nearly one-third of our sheep because they were susceptible. Therefore, as participation was voluntary, we have now withdrawn.
Sheep from designated "scrapie monitored" flocks have been regarded as scrapie free. For breeding purposes, scrapie-free sheep command a premium. Many of these sheep fall into the "susceptible" category, and I have mentioned the Scottish Blackface breed. We still have a good deal to learn about TSEs and genetics. I fear that we are about to run before we can walk. Our successors will never forgive us if we wipe out a whole chunk of biodiversity, especially our rare breeds, for reasons about which we are presently unsure; in other words, does scrapie cause BSE and does BSE cause CJD? I beg to move.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendment moved by the noble Countess. In doing so, I shall speak to Amendment No. 17, which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth, and also comment briefly on Amendment No. 18.
In many ways, from an emotional point of view, many of us would like to support Amendment No. 18. However, if the House were to pass such an amendment, it would extend the constitutional powers of this Chamber somewhat; in effect, it would be tantamount to denying the Government legislation to which they are entitled. Therefore, we are unable to support the amendment on those grounds. However, we support Amendment No. 16, which has been moved by a Member of this House who possibly knows more about this subject than most noble Lords in this place. The noble Countess's expertise proved to be extremely valuable during the Committee stage.
In tabling Amendment No. 17, we are seeking to take account of the extended and fascinating debates on the subject that took place in Committee which I am sure many of us found both educative and interesting. It was necessary to undertake considerable research in order to be able to take part in such debates, but that experience was most interesting. Two issues emerged during our discussions in Committee. I shall not go into the technical details involved because we are on Report and such information has been reported in Hansard.
The first point is that the science involved is only partially understood, but its understanding is increasing quite quickly. Indeed, the whole understanding of genotyping, and so on, is relatively new and has only been really understood in recent years. However, like the science surrounding it, such understanding is progressing at a rapid pace. When the
1290
Minister wrote to me about scrapie—a copy of his letter was sent to other noble Lords—he set out a large number of research projects that are currently underway. We all look forward to reading the results of such research.
The emphasis, however, is always on the statement, "We look forward to seeing the results of this or that". The fact is that we still do not know a very great deal. In two, four or five years, an approach that seemed necessary may no longer seem necessary. The fact that the science is changing quickly is one reason to support Amendment No. 17. We believe that the clause and schedule relating to scrapie should come into effect only on an affirmative resolution of this House and of the other place. The amendment would ensure that, should the Government decide to implement the provisions, we are able to ask whether the provisions as set out in the Bill are still appropriate.
Another point which clearly emerged from our consideration in Committee was that the Government themselves are not clear on exactly when they want to bring this legislation into effect. Various noble Lords asked the Minister for a date, but he—in his usual charming way, trying to sound positive—evaded the issue. He did not clearly tell us whether it would be six months, one year, two years or three years. One reason he gave for being unable to answer was that the voluntary National Scrapie Plan is still in its early stages. One reason he gave for wanting Clause 4 as a backup was that it would encourage people to take part in the National Scrapie Plan, take-up for which, in its first year, has not been as high as he had hoped.
Noble Lords and others have suggested that there are many good reasons for low take-up. In the aftermath of the foot and mouth outbreak, for example, people have had other things on their minds. We said that the plan may gather pace, and the Minister agreed. However, he said that he wants this legislation on the statute book so that people are aware of the plan. He wants the legislation essentially as a stick, with the National Scrapie Plan as a carrot. Although carrots may not be the right image to use in relation to all animals, I am sure that the goats owned by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, would eat them as well as almost anything else. It is the carrot-and-stick approach.
We are saying in Amendment No. 17 that the House, having scrutinised the Bill and attempted to persuade the Government to improve it, should let the Government have this legislation. When they seek to put the legislation into effect, however, we should as a precaution require them to explain why they are seeking to do so. An affirmative resolution would achieve that objective. It would not be a huge imposition on the Government and it would not cause substantial delay.
Scrapie is not a rampaging, highly infectious disease, but an endemic disease which has been around for perhaps 200 or 300 years. Although we want to get rid of it as best as we can, we should have time at the appropriate stage to reflect on whether the Government's objectives are right. Amendment

1291
No. 17 would achieve that objective. It would enable the House to consider not only the issues raised in Amendment No. 16, but issues that may arise in the future. Given continuing research, we may not yet know what those issues will be. We therefore ask the Government to accept Amendment No. 17 as plain common sense.
7.30 p.m.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, my name is linked with that of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in proposing Amendment No. 16. I shall not rehearse the issues raised by the amendment, as the noble Countess has already done so very fully and eloquently. I believe that the Minister is already well aware of the noble Countess's reservations about TSEs and the scrapie provisions.
I feel that we have made some progress, albeit only a little, in that the Government now recognise that rare breeds are a special case. I think that they must therefore realise why so many of us are concerned about the scrapie provisions. As we have consistently made our case in relation to these provisions—on Second Reading, in Committee and today—I would be disappointed if the Minister did not accept some of these amendments. There is genuine concern, both inside the House and outside it, about the provisions—which, as other noble Lords have said, are not emergency provisions. Scrapie therefore differs from some of the matters that we dealt with in Committee and on Report. We support Amendment No. 17, and I hope that the Government will accept it.
As I said, I do not need to add anything to the very clear remarks on Amendment No. 16 made by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. She and I share great concern about the whole issue of scrapie. Noble Lords may remember, for example, our earlier explicit debates on the research done on cow brains that should have been done on sheep brains. However, that is in the past. Research is currently being done to investigate specific scrapie issues, but it is not yet finished and only partly understood. It therefore seems only sensible to restrict the way in which these provisions are implemented. Accordingly, I support this group of amendments, particularly Amendment No. 17, which will be moved shortly by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the rigid criteria in Amendment No. 16 would prevent the acceleration by compulsory means of the National Scrapie Plan, which aims to reduce and eventually eradicate scrapie from the GB national flock. This initiative is strongly endorsed by the stakeholder groups and by SEAC. Let us not forget that scrapie is an extremely nasty and invariably fatal neurological disease. Measures to eradicate it are supported by the vast majority of stakeholders.
I accept that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, is not one of those who supports the plan. However, there remains a theoretical risk that BSE could be found in sheep, masked by scrapie. It is therefore important to achieve a flock that is resistant to scrapie, and to BSE
1292
if it is there, within an acceptable time span. To activate these powers only when the presence of BSE is confirmed would be akin to closing the stable door once the horse has bolted.
We shall, of course, involve all stakeholder groups in discussions of what would be a practical time-scale for the introduction of compulsory powers. I therefore cannot accept this amendment.
I turn to Amendment No. 17. Order-making powers in the scrapie provisions will be subject to the negative resolution statutory instrument procedure. I tell the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that requiring an affirmative resolution procedure for activation of the entire clause is unnecessary and would be very time-consuming. He asked when the clause will be activated, and the reply remains, only as and when it is deemed necessary. However, I assure him that there would be public consultation in advance of the activation of these powers so that all interested organisations could comment.
I turn to Amendment No. 18 and some of the aspects of Amendment No. 48. This part of the Bill deals with the powers to enable us to safeguard human health by making sheep resistant to TSEs through a speeding up of the National Scrapie Plan. The National Scrapie Plan is a long-term programme aiming to reduce and eventually eradicate scrapie from the national sheep flock. It is strongly supported by the sheep sector and other stakeholders. It is also endorsed by SEAC and the Food Standards Agency. At present it is voluntary. Farmers who enter it have their sheep genotyped to establish whether they are genetically resistant to scrapie, with breeding controls then being imposed on susceptible sheep, as the noble Countess recognised. It remains a theoretical risk that BSE could be found in sheep, masked by scrapie. It is important therefore to achieve a flock which is resistant to scrapie—and BSE, if it is present—within a reasonable time span. We shall continue to involve the sheep industry in discussions on what the practical time-scale should be.
The Food Standards Agency has specifically called on the Government to speed up TSE eradication in this country. The Bill would give us the powers, if necessary, to accelerate the process by compulsory means. Supplementary regulations would need to be made before we could activate the powers. I must stress that we would consult all stakeholders before we activated the powers and would discuss the time-scale.
Phenotype characteristics were mentioned. The Government's Amendment No. 51 will ensure that genotypes are taken into account when considering applying a restriction notice. I am sure that the noble Countess knows that, although the European Commission published proposals which set minimum requirements for EU-wide genotyping involving initial voluntary participation, becoming compulsory at a later date, they have been subject only to fairly limited discussion and the outcome is uncertain.

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I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, that we discussed with the industry in great detail the issue of rare breeds. That is why the exception has been made. If we listen to the industry and have regard to its view about rare breeds, but that is then used as an argument to change the whole policy, the Government may be tempted not to listen. I know that the noble Baroness would not want that and will be pleased that we have reached an agreement on rare breeds.
We are unable to accept the amendment. Ultimately, the Government must be able to safeguard human health, respond to the Food Standards Agency, to the future of our sheep industry and to its role in the rural economy.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I listened with great care to what the noble Baroness said. I say again that there is still not a shred of evidence that sheep scrapie causes CJD in humans. It is all supposition and theory. I could float a theory that multiple sclerosis was caused by sheep and huge amounts of money could be spent investigating that. We still have not got to the bottom of the matter.
I refer again to phenotyping. Every single sheep was killed in Iceland and sheep that were apparently scrapie free were brought in. Scrapie is now again found in certain valleys in Iceland. Shetland has a high incidence of scrapie in sheep. Yet, as I said, Scottish Blackface sheep do not appear to get scrapie. In Australia and New Zealand sheep do not appear to get scrapie. We need to look not only at genetics but also at phenotypes. Certain animals may have a genetic propensity to contracting a disease but they do not actually get it. We need to know why they do not get it. Much research needs to be devoted to that.
I am perfectly happy to withdraw my amendment but I wholeheartedly support that of the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Livsey. I shall also withdraw Amendment No. 18 when we reach it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Greaves Lord Greaves moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 3, line 11, at end insert—
"( ) This Part shall not come into effect unless an order has been laid before, and approved by, a resolution of each House of Parliament."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I say two things to the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. First, to avoid any doubt, we on these Benches wholeheartedly support the voluntary National Scrapie Plan—let no one think or suggest that we do not. Secondly, as we would expect, the noble Baroness explained to us in some detail the amount of public consultation that would be undertaken before the provision we are discussing was brought into effect. However, that nullifies her argument that introducing an affirmative resolution would cause huge delay. The preparatory processes could clearly take place at the same time as
1294
that. The additional delay involved in having an affirmative resolution is not that great in the context we are discussing. I beg to move.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I did not deploy the argument that such a measure would involve delay, but rather the argument about it being time consuming and unnecessary in the context of the widespread consultation.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. However, any time that was consumed would be our time. I argue that that would be time well worth spending. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
7.46 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 17) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 99; Not-Contents, 103.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS

Addington, L.

Maginnis of Drumglass, L.

Alderdice, L.

Mancroft, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Mar, C. [Teller]

Attlee, E.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Avebury, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Barker, B.

Mayhew of Twysden, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Michie of Gallanach, B.

Bridgeman, V.

Molyneaux of Killead, L.

Byford, B.

Monro of Langholm, L.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Monson, L.

Carlile of Berriew, L.

Moran, L.

Clement-Jones, L.

Newby, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Noakes, B.

Colwyn, L.

Northbrook, L.

Cope of Berkeley, L.

Northesk, E.

Dahrendorf, L.

Norton of Louth, L.

Dixon-Smith, L.

Onslow, E.

Elliott of Morpeth, L.

Park of Monmouth, B.

Fearn, L.

Parkinson, L.

Fookes, B.

Peel, E.

Forsyth of Drumlean, L.

Plumb, L.

Goodhart, L.

Razzall, L.

Gray of Contin, L.

Redesdale, L.

Greaves, L. [Teller]

Rennard, L.

Hamwee, B.

Roberts of Conwy, L.

Hanham, B.

Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.

Harris of Richmond, B.

Rogan, L.

Henley, L.

Roper, L.

Hereford, Bp.

Russell-Johnston, L.

Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.

St John of Fawsley, L.

Holme of Cheltenham, L.

Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.

Hooson, L.

Scott of Needham Market, B.

Howe of Aberavon, L.

Seccombe, B.

Hunt of Wirral, L.

Selkirk of Douglas, L.

Jacobs, L.

Selsdon, L.

Jopling, L.

Sharman, L.

Kimball, L.

Sharp of Guildford, B.

Linklater of Butterstone, B.

Sharples, B.

Liverpool, E.

Shutt of Greetland, L.

Livsey of Talgarth, L.

Smith of Clifton, L.

Luke, L.

Stodart of Leaston, L.

Lyell, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Tebbit, L.

Maclennan of Rogart, L.

Thomas of Gresford, L.

Maddock, B.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

1295

Thomas of Walliswood, B.

Walpole, L.

Tope, L.

Wigoder, L.

Wallace of Saltaire, L.

Wilcox, B.

Walmsley, B.

Williams of Crosby, B.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.

Hilton of Eggardon, B.

Alli, L.

Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.

Andrews, B.

Hollis of Heigham, B.

Ashton of Upholland, B.

Howe of Idlicote, B.

Barnett, L.

Hoyle, L.

Bassam of Brighton, L.

Hughes of Woodside, L.

Berkeley, L.

Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

Bernstein of Craigweil, L.

Judd, L.

Billingham, B.

King of West Bromwich, L.

Blackstone, B.

Kirkhill, L.

Borrie, L.

Lea of Crondall, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.

Brett, L.

McCarthy, L.

Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.

Macdonald of Tradeston, L.

Brookman, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Burlison, L.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

Carter, L.

Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.

Chandos, V.

Mason of Barnsley, L.

Clark of Windermere, L.

Morgan, L.

Cohen of Pimlico, B.

Morris of Manchester, L.

Corbett of Castle Vale, L.

Nicol, B.

Crawley, B.

Orme, L.

Darcy de Knayth, B.

Parekh, L.

David, B.

Patel of Blackburn, L.

Davies of Coity, L.

Pitkeathley, B.

Davies of Oldham, L.

Plant of Highfield, L.

Desai, L.

Radice, L.

Dixon, L.

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Dormand of Easington, L.

Rea, L.

Dubs, L.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Elder, L.

Richard, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Scotland of Asthal, B.

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.

Sheldon, L.

Filkin, L.

Simon, V.

Finlay of Llandaff, B.

Smith of Leigh, L.

Fyfe of Fairfield, L.

Stone of Blackheath, L.

Gale, B.

Strange, B.

Gibson of Market Rasen, B.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Gladwin of Clee, L.

Temple-Morris, L.

Goldsmith, L.

Tenby, V.

Gordon of Strathblane, L.

Tomlinson, L.

Goudie, B.

Turner of Camden, B.

Gould of Potternewton, B.

Varley, L.

Grabiner, L.

Walker of Doncaster, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Warwick of Undercliffe, B.

Grenfell, L.

Whitaker, B.

Grocott, L. [Teller]

Whitty, L.

Hardy of Wath, L.

Wilkins, B.

Harris of Haringey, L.

Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)

Harrison, L.

Haskins, L.

Williamson of Horton, L.

Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
7.56 p.m.
[Amendment No. 18 not moved.]
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Report stage begin again not before 8.55 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.57 until 8.55 p.m.]
Lord Campbell of Alloway Lord Campbell of Alloway moved Amendment No. 19:
Before Clause 5, insert the following new clause—
"EXERCISE OF POWERS

(1) On or before entry upon land or premises under the provisions of sections 5 to 7, a copy of the sworn information shall be presented with the warrant for entry.

(2) On conviction of an offence under section 16(16) (inserted by section 5 of this Act), 66A(2) (inserted by section 6 of this Act) or 62F(8) (inserted by section 7 of this Act) of the 1981 Act the court is to be satisfied that the required assistance was reasonable and proportionate in all the circumstances.

(3) The provisions of subsections (1) and (2) may be suspended by statutory instrument subject to affirmative resolution of each House if requisite in the national interest.

(4) In implementation of sections 5 to 7 of this Act the Secretary of State may issue a Code of Practice as to slaughter, and vaccination, of animals a draft of which has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the exercise of powers under the Bill. Proposed new subsection (1) seeks to ensure that the information on which the writ of entry is granted is presented with the writ, save at a time of national emergency, which under subsection (3) would suspend this amendment. It would be suspended by Parliament under statutory instrument.
In a sense, this is—I do not know how to describe it—a quadrilateral Bill. It is concerned with the slaughter or vaccination of animals, either in times of national emergency or at any other time. There is no precedent for such a Bill. Either we have emergency legislation or we do not. Therefore, there is no precedent for the amendment, which, when there was no national emergency in the opinion of Parliament, would restore to Parliament the business of Parliament and, to the judiciary, the business of the judiciary.
At the outset, I should explain with gratitude that long before today I had a constructive and enjoyable discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Although we cannot agree on most things, and probably never shall, we agreed on one thing—that this was a matter that should be dealt with through this type of amendment and not scattered around the Bill, as it was at Committee stage. We agreed that it was certainly a matter which had not been debated and which was worthy of debate. Naturally, the noble Lord never gave any form of commitment.
The exercise of powers is geared to slaughter under Clauses 5 to 7, albeit mitigated by the amendment of the noble Countess, which now gives priority to the policy of priority of vaccination. That exercise of powers is governed by Clause 1(1) as amended, Clause 1(2), and Clause 1(3) as amended. But, as amended, what should be done to prevent disease is dependent upon what the Secretary of State thinks, which is not justiciable on judicial review, and not upon what he decides, which would be justiciable under judicial review. As I said previously, there is here an absolute discretion.
What the Secretary of State decides is justiciable because the grounds for his decision are subject to judicial review. What will the grounds be? They will be some reports of inspectors or veterinary practitioners. They may be in-house reports from the department, which, of course, would be privileged. But the reports of the inspectors and the veterinary practitioners would not be privileged. They would be examined by a court in order to decide where, for example, a decision to slaughter—not to vaccinate—was such as any reasonable Secretary of State properly directing himself could have made.
That information would have been incorporated in a report on which the application for a writ of entry was granted, which is not disclosed until after the animal has been slaughtered or vaccinated. This at a time when Parliament, by statutory instrument, has not declared a state of national emergency under Subsection (3) of the amendment.
I understand the noble Lord's position as a Minister of the Crown; he must understand mine as a very ordinary lawyer who has led his life and earned his living at the Bar. The noble Lord said in Committee that Ministers have to act reasonably. But one cannot really rely on that because every six months or so the High Court decides otherwise and returns a decision for reconsideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in total good faith, suggested that the word "thinks" was used—it is obviously in his brief, but that brief is a little unsatisfactory—because it was used in the 1981 Act. That Act was not geared to slaughter in a national emergency. Therefore, when the noble Lord says—again obviously from his brief—that it was used to maintain consistency in drafting when drafting amending legislation, with respect, that makes no sense at all.
The court must be satisfied that priority—and I give one example again—was given to the policy of vaccination to live. That is the effect of Amendment No. 1 of the noble Countess, whom I am delighted to see at this hour in her place. One can ask the noble Lord—I asked before—what is this resistance? What was restrictive about her amendment? Was it just that the court would have to be satisfied that the requirements of the amendment had been complied with? I do not know.
It comes to this. Unless the amendment were to be accepted in principle, the Secretary of State gives no reasons for slaughter. The owner or keeper can never know the grounds on which entry was granted for slaughter unless, after slaughter, there is a judicial review. But that is small comfort either to the animals or to the keeper.
There would be no judicial hearing of any kind—no appeal to the court that granted the warrant, no judicial review and no safeguard. This at a time when there is no national emergency. And what are the grounds? Delay. And what would be the delay? It would be minimal. Similar considerations to failing to
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give required assistance under pain of fine and imprisonment are referred to in subsection (2) of the amendment.
Under subsection (4) there are the codes of practice which no doubt, particularly in the light of the amendment of the noble Countess, will be issued to deal not only with aspects of the system likely to be sought on slaughter but also on vaccination. Assistance which is not given renders those who fail to give it liable to fine and imprisonment.
The 29th paragraph of the 10th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights was referred to in Committee but, as I seek to make a constructive case, perhaps by leave I may again refer to one short passage from it. It states:
"We consider it desirable for a copy of the information sworn by the inspector in support of the application for a warrant to be served on the occupier, together with a copy of the warrant, when the warrant is executed; in order to reduce the risk of arbitrariness"—
a word that I have never used, but I have taken it straight from the report—
"and to make judicial review of the warrant an effective remedy for any violation of Convention rights".
That is the advice of the committee.
In conclusion—I apologise for speaking at such length at such an hour—other than at a time of national emergency, all of your Lordships will appreciate that the separation of powers is the bedrock of our unwritten constitution, of which this House is the sole guardian. For the sake of administrative convenience, in fulfilment of the Quentine prophecy, what has happened? Parliament proposes to confer its powers to the Executive and to stifle the powers of the judiciary. I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, my noble friend raises important issues. He has spelt his case out clearly so, apart from supporting the thoughts behind his well-presented case on the use and exercise of the powers, I shall not elaborate. He has clearly covered it all.
I hope that the Minister will be able to allay some of our fears. As my noble friend said, there will be no appeal until after the animals have been slaughtered. It is not an emergency. As I said, a writ of entry will not be disclosed until after the animals have been slaughtered and, with vaccination now playing such a high part in consideration of future disease control, we ask the Minister carefully to consider the new clause. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, perhaps I may speak briefly in support of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. With respect to the noble Lord, he cited paragraph 27 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report, but it is significant. That report was, on the whole, favourable towards the Government and not unduly critical of the provisions of the Bill even as originally drafted. Many of your Lordships were surprised by the tolerance for what appeared to be infringements of human rights in the

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Bill, but the Joint Committee took the line that we may be faced with a crisis and that severe measures were justified.
However, one of the clearest sections of the report suggests that such information should be served, and it is extremely important that that should be done. Granted the general tenor of the report, it is particularly significant that that recommendation is so clear. For that reason, I strongly support what the noble Lord said.
The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, perhaps I may add my support to that for my noble friend. It strikes me that the progress of the Bill has been somewhat unusual. The great virtue of the amendment—the Government should appreciate this virtue—is that it draws the distinction between what might be described as normal statutory powers and those required in a national emergency. In so doing, the amendment guarantees that due judicial process—and, indeed, natural justice—is adhered to.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, willingly support the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. In what may be regarded as rather a long speech, I heard the noble Lord, Lord Carter, whispering, "Are they paid by the minute?". We all think that about the lawyers in this House, because they all tend to go on a bit. That is a stock joke about them. However, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, does himself a disservice by saying that he is just an ordinary lawyer. He is by no means an ordinary lawyer and he would not be in your Lordships' House if he were. His service to the House has proved otherwise. The noble Lord made some valid points. He pulled together many factors that should have been pulled together in the earlier stages of the Bill's progress.
I must make one major criticism of the Minister. The big amendments that we have considered this evening have been too big for Report stage. We needed more time to discuss them, and we have failed the farming community by not being able to discuss them properly. I am disappointed that we did not have the amendments when we were in Committee, as we should have done. After all, the Minister had all summer to produce the amendments.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, made some good points in his amendment, and they should be accepted.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, we agree with that. The amendment refers to sworn information, required assistance, suspension by statutory instrument and the provision of a code of practice for slaughter. Those relate to important principles, and they have rightly been brought to our attention. The addition of such principles would strengthen the Bill and the rights of individuals who stand to lose a great deal and have some of their liberties infringed.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, has moved the amendment in an attempt to provide a general clause that would qualify a large part of the Bill, rather than doing it section by section. The noble Lord has raised certain principles. Neither the specific details nor the mechanism that the noble Lord proposes is appropriate, and I shall explain why. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, may have a point about the lateness of some of the amendments, but I have tried to keep noble Lords who were involved with the Bill informed of my intentions.
Our amendments meet many of the anxieties expressed at earlier stages, particularly those relating to the warrant procedure and the use of slaughter powers. Since the Bill was first produced and since the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, produced his previous version of the amendment, we have committed ourselves to serving a copy of the warrant on the occupier at the time of entry; keeping a warrant record; limiting the definition of persons from whom an inspector can ask assistance; publishing the animal disease slaughter protocol that we discussed this evening; and requiring the Secretary of State to publish reasons for adopting slaughter powers. Those are all substantial constraints on the powers about which the noble Lord expresses continued anxiety. There are now substantial procedures that Ministers and government authorities must go through to exercise the powers to which the amendment refers.
The problem with the mechanism suggested by the noble Lord is that it defines a situation in peacetime, as opposed to a situation of national emergency. The powers are not for peacetime. A foot and mouth disease epidemic will—automatically, immediately and instantaneously—be a national emergency, as would be an outbreak of any of the other diseases referred to at various points in the report to which the same approach might be extended. Therefore, we are discussing powers that would be exerted in a national emergency in any case.
A national emergency could come upon us suddenly, and it would cause severe delay to oblige the Government to come to this House and to the other place to seek approval to suspend the provisions of the clause in order to trigger the necessary powers. That delay would be right at the beginning. We are not talking about a delay in the operation of powers of entry, slaughter or vaccination; the amendment would mean that, right at the beginning of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, the Government would not have access to the full plethora of measures that this Bill and other legislation would otherwise provide.
When foot and mouth disease broke out, one of the major criticisms of the Government was that we did not act quickly enough. The criticism was that we did not have the powers immediately to hand, so that we could deploy them in a policy of slaughter or, as advocated by many—including, in the light of the reports that we have received, the Government—vaccination. If we had had to seek powers, we might as well have relied on emergency powers in the first place.

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The disease is no respecter of parliamentary timetables. Despite what many of us may think, this House sits for only half the year, in terms of the number of days. In terms of the number of hours—hours are important, when disease breaks out—it sits for rather less than that. It may not seem to be thus sometimes, but that is the case. Noble Lords may recall that, on the day that foot and mouth disease broke out, we heard a Statement from my noble friend Lady Hayman; the other place was not sitting. Had we to come to Parliament to trigger the powers that we considered necessary, what would we do if the disease broke out at a time that was not convenient for your Lordships or—even more likely—convenient for the other place?
Therefore, I do not believe that the mechanism proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, of "unsuspending" the powers—if I can use a word that is probably not in the dictionary—would work. Either the Government directly put the limitations in the Bill or we accept that the limitations already proposed, and some others that we are about to debate, will limit the power.
It is important to recognise that those powers will be exerted only when there is an outbreak of a serious disease or, in the immediate period, in relation to foot and mouth disease. Therefore, the distinction between peacetime and a national emergency is theoretical because the powers will be used only in a period of national emergency. While I appreciate the attempt to put a general provision on the face of the Bill, the mechanism chosen by the noble Lord would not be appropriate.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for engaging in a constructive discussion. Frankly, that is the only way in which we can resolve constitutional affairs in this House. I thank all noble Lords on all sides of the House at this hour who have supported the amendment.
I do not want to take much time, but there is a problem which has been acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. It is a novel situation in which in peace-time an emergency situation can arise at any time. The Bill, as he put it, covers both. There is no necessity for any distinction—I hope I do not do an injustice and I invite the noble Lord to intervene if I am wrong—to be made because the Minister will always operate the matter fairly, sensibly and reasonably.
With respect, that does not accord with my experience at the Bar. I have spent half my time fighting cases where Ministers have not acted reasonably, sensibly and so forth. I quite understand that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and many others believe that they do. But I know they do not. I say in an irenic spirit that we start from different ends. We look at the matter from different ends of a telescope.
The idea of having a statutory instrument in this extraordinary dual situation or quadripartite situation is not unusual from a constitutional point of view. If
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there is an emergency situation it is not a Minister of State who decides; it is Parliament. The only way that can be done quickly—and I agree with the noble Lord that it must be done quickly—is by Parliament, at the drop of a hat, bringing forward a statutory instrument. That is all that is needed. I am not asking that the noble Lord should agree with me—I do not believe he ever will—but that he should take time to consider the debate and give a further response to the points that I have raised.
When bringing a case before the Appellate Committee of your Lordships' House we had to present a written case and at the end give brief reasons. Those reasons were most difficult to draft because of the perversity of the noble and learned Lords who always looked at the end first. My brief reason for objection as regards the Bill is that it sets an untoward precedent which affords a manifest injustice. I ask the Minister to muse on that perhaps with some understanding.
In view of the general support that I have received, which I did not expect or seek, from all sides of the House, and in view of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment so that we may continue a debate on the basis of further constructive thought.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.30 p.m.
Clause 5 [Treatment: power of entry]:
Lord Greaves Lord Greaves moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 3, line 34, leave out from "informed" to end of line and insert "in writing of the decision to apply for the warrant and of the reasons for that decision including a copy of the sworn information, and has been notified of the time and place at which he may make representations to the justice of the peace about whether the warrant should be issued"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 20 heads a group of amendments most of which stand in the name of my noble friend Lord Livsey and myself. They attempt to tackle some of the problems highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy. I am sorry, I meant the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I hesitate to suggest that the two have anything in common—well, not a great deal. I had better get on before I dig my hole much deeper.
These amendments attempt to tackle some of the problems which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, highlighted—and some other problems, too—based around the decisions taken on them by magistrates, the serving of the warrants and the right of people to make representations to the magistrates. They also attempt to deal with the related issue of what happens when premises are unoccupied or the occupier is absent.
In respect of those and other areas, the Minister has made considerable changes to the Bill since it first came to your Lordships' House. He has built in many "constraints", as he called them. However, in this area most of them have not been constraints as much as clarifications. They are welcome because the position is now much clearer. Attempts have been made to make the procedures used in different circumstances

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more uniform and much of what the Minister has done has led to greater openness in the Bill. That, too, is most welcome.
However, there remains a series of deep concerns about what happens when people wish to enter premises either for the treatment of animals, for the slaughter of animals or for the testing of animals. The provisions relating to those three areas are substantially uniform and these amendments would make uniform changes to them. The first amendment requires the reasons for the decision to be provided in writing. We believe that that is important and that a copy of the information should be provided, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway.
My second point concerns the ability of people to make representations to a JP. The letter sent to noble Lords by the Minister implied that the Lord Chancellor's Department does not have a high opinion of this suggestion; that different procedures apply for obtaining warrants generally and for making representations to JPs and magistrates, and that it was not a good idea.
It may be that the three areas should be treated differently and that provisions for making representations are needed only in cases of slaughter. The Minister may say that slaughter is often very urgent, as is vaccination, but there is a difference between the purpose of a warrant for entry for slaughter and any other warrant—that is, that its effect is irrevocable and terminal. In most other cases, no matter what unfortunate things may happen to people—they may be arrested, have their property removed, or whatever—the situation can be reversed. In the case of slaughter, it cannot. It may be said that the same is true in cases of treatment, although clearly the remedy and effect being sought is a great deal less traumatic.
I concede that uniform amendments to these different categories may not be the way forward. We are still searching for an ideal way of providing, in such traumatic circumstances, adequate civil rights to the owners, the farmers and the occupiers concerned, in a way that will not seriously affect the purpose of the operation. We all accept that at the height of an epidemic speed is of the essence.
In proposing the amendments, I do not believe that we have achieved a final, ideal solution. I do not believe that the Bill as it stands is adequate for meeting people's concerns or that the amendments on these matters put forward from other sides of the House have yet achieved the ideal. More discussion and thought is required. However, the problem is there; it has to be faced up to and improvements still have to be made to the Bill.
As to the question of what should happen where people turn up at unoccupied premises or where the occupier is absent but it is known, or it can reasonably be found out, where he is, the Government have not yet come forward with an adequate solution to this problem. If you go to a village and want to get access to a farm—and the farmer is in that village or nearby
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and can be easily found—it is not reasonable simply to put up a notice at the unoccupied premises and to go away and assume that it has been seen. That is not reasonable in those circumstances.
If it is known that the owner is a long way away and cannot be contacted, or if his telephone number cannot be found or he cannot be contacted easily on the telephone, that is a different circumstance. But where he can be contacted, either because he is nearby and people know where he is or because a telephone number on which he can be contacted is known—and is perhaps displayed on the premises—it is not reasonable to ignore that and to proceed as though he was not there.
We believe that these questions need to be answered. We hope that the Government will look to see whether they can come at least some way towards meeting us on them. These are matters to which we shall have to return at Third Reading. I beg to move.
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, the noble Lord has introduced his amendment with great diffidence, but he has put his finger on an aspect of the Bill that has greatly troubled me, as I indicated in Committee, and continues to do so.
One of the lasting legacies of the foot and mouth outbreak, which has led to continuing resentment, was the sense of powerlessness in the face of the authorities on the part of those faced with people attempting to get into their premises to slaughter their stock.
I accept that a balance has to be struck between the need to control disease urgently and the rights of the owners of the animals—the landowners and farmers. I appreciate that the paramount consideration in the Minister's mind—stung as he and his colleagues were by criticisms of their department—is that they should have the powers to act as swiftly as possible.
However, we are talking not about diseased animals, not about animals which are dangerous contacts, but about those that are healthy and which the Minister is considering using as some form of "fire-break". It seems to me that the minimum that those farmers should have the right to expect is to be told why entry to their premises is required and what the basis of the application is; to be told when and where the application is to be made; and to be given a chance to be heard.
The Minister said in Committee that that would cause delay—and so it will; but it will be a minimal delay in the circumstances. It is always inconvenient to authorities when lawyers are brought in. But surely, if you are going to destroy someone's healthy stock, which is the proposal here, you must give that person the opportunity to be heard at an early stage of the warrant.
This is not a parallel with an arrest warrant or a search warrant. If granted, it will result in the destruction of the animals. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has said, what on earth is the point of subsequent judicial review if your herd is lying dead on the floor of your barn?

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These amendments may not be perfect, but they strike at a matter which I urge my noble friend the Minister to address. If it is not addressed, that feeling of powerlessness in the face of the authorities will be translated into this Bill as well, and he will be storing up even greater resentment if these powers—heaven forfend!—ever have to be used in the future.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, I could not agree more strongly with the noble Baroness. The amendment picks up points in amendments that I tabled in Committee. I felt strongly that it was essential that anyone who found that his premises were about to be entered by the authorities and his livestock killed should have the right to know when he could make representations to a justice of the peace. I strongly support the suggestion that an occupier should be,
"notified of the time and place at which he may make representations",
to a magistrate. Such a provision is essential.
It could, of course, mean a delay. I accept that. I hope that in replying the Minister will not stress that aspect too much. If the process is properly organised, the delay could be very small indeed. Writing these kinds of provisions into the Bill has the added advantage that farmers will be less likely to make appeals in an attempt to avoid their livestock being killed.
In this context, I was struck by the Minister's letter to the noble Countess dated 17th October. The letter is headed "Animal Health Bill". The Minister has headed a number of paragraphs in the letter "Appeals information from North Yorkshire". I live in North Yorkshire. Happily, my farm was not affected by that dreadful outbreak. As I told noble Lords in Committee, we had outbreaks of foot and mouth disease less than 10 miles from us to the east, north and west but, happily, not to the south into the great pig-producing areas of the Vale of York. Happily, the disease did not strike us.
However, in North Yorkshire there were a good many appeals. In the letter to the noble Countess, the Minister refers to 55 local appeals. The Government repeatedly referred to those appeals as being in the Thirsk area. It caused huge offence in the area where I live. The Minister may recall my correspondence with him. In an extraordinarily ignorant way, the Government referred to all those appeals as being in the Thirsk area whereas many were not.
I have not referred to this issue in previous debates. However, I wish to put on record today that the way in which the Government referred to so many of the outbreaks in North Yorkshire as being in the Thirsk area—they were not—caused huge offence. Many were many miles from the Thirsk area where I live.
I declare an interest. Many years ago, as a young man I was a member of the NFU executive for the Thirsk branch. I commend the Government, at last, for referring to North Yorkshire rather than the Thirsk area. I apologise to noble Lords for perhaps appearing too parochial, but the offence caused by the
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Government's ignorance needs putting right. The reference in the paragraphs in the letter to "Appeals information from North Yorkshire" (rather than the Thirsk area) will be widely welcomed. It is a situation where there is great rejoicing when the sinner repenteth.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. In terms of balance and natural justice, it is in many ways the most important amendment to the Bill that noble Lords will address.
It is imperative that there should be a fair balance between the occupier and those who wish to enter his land and, if necessary, slaughter his stock. I can see no reason whatsoever why the occupier should not have information which is available to the justice of the peace and be able to attend such a meeting to present his case. That seems to me basic and natural justice.
It is important to note two supporters of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, is a former Minister of Agriculture. If he can support the amendment, knowing the implications involved, I see no reason why the Government cannot accept it. If the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, is not concerned from a legal perspective that unnecessary delays are likely to take place, that is another good reason why the Government should accept the amendment. In Committee, I made the relatively mundane but important point that it is appropriate that the Bill gives the new department an opportunity to show the farming fraternity that they care and that they consider farmers' viewpoint. This amendment, almost more than any other, displays that feeling of mutual trust. It is for that reason, more than any other, that I regard it as an imperative part of the legislation. I see no reason whatsoever why the Government should reject it. It is fundamental, and I hope that the Minister will listen very carefully to what has been said.
9.45 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, there are two points in this amendment. The first picks up on the matter that we discussed in connection with Amendment No. 19, which relates to providing a copy of the sworn information to the person whose premises are being approached. Clause 62B(1) of the Bill as it is printed provides:
"If a justice of the peace is satisfied on sworn information in writing that the first condition is satisfied…he may issue a warrant".
There is no reason why the sworn information should not be taken with the warrant. The Minister said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, that the process would involve a delay. It would involve no delay at all, because if the sworn information is available there is no reason why it should not be taken to the farmer with the warrant.
The second question is whether that person should have a right of representation. The Minister will say that that will involve delay, and it will. It could be done within a tight period, which need not be longer than 24 hours. When that minimal delay, with the enormous gain in good will that there could be if the possibility

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of representation were offered, is compared with the inordinate delays that took place last year, it is as nothing. We would have less delay and there would be an enormous increase in good will. This makes real sense. Arguments that the provision of sworn information would create delay are unsustainable. Of course there would be some delay if there were a possibility of representation, but it would be well worth it in order to achieve the good will.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, we are discussing an important group of amendments, and I do not think that the noble Lord has disconnected his first amendment from that group. Rather facetiously, I thought about the length of time that MAFF took to reply to my letters. However, under the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, correspondence comes back and forth much more quickly than it used to do. He has seen an improvement in that regard. The delay in issuing information in writing may not be as great as it would have been if MAFF still reigned supreme. There is no problem with having pro forma letters, on which dates and times can be inserted. There should be no delay in that regard, so the Minister cannot plead delay as a problem. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, pointed out that we are not talking about slaughtering animals, but about vaccinating them, and about having healthy animals. A little delay will not hurt.
I strongly support Amendment No. 20A, which the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, tabled. In this situation I can see no reason why an application for admission to premises giving advance notice would defeat the object of entering premises. We want farmers' co-operation; we do not want to upset them or to cause more problems. Amendment No. 20A should certainly be accepted.
The other amendments all apply to dealing with occupiers who are absent. The noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Livsey, have done a good job pulling this group of amendments together and I support them.
Lord Carter: My Lords, this discussion has been very interesting to listen to, but I am a little surprised that not a single contributor has referred to the 10th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights—a committee that includes the noble Lords, Lord Campbell of Alloway and Lord Lester of Herne Hill. The committee examined this aspect of the Bill very carefully. The report says:
"As Article 8(2) [of the ECHR] has been interpreted by the European Court of Human Rights, an entry to premises, or the issue of a warrant, must, in order to be justified—

a) be in accordance with the law,

b) be intended to advance one of the legitimate aims listed in Article 8(2), and

c) be a proportionate response to a pressing social need to pursue that aim".

The committee then examined all the procedures and requirements in the Bill—including the requirement to obtain a warrant from a justice of the peace before entering premises without the occupier's consent and without giving notice, and all the rest of
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it—and concluded that it was satisfied that the powers the Government are undertaking do not impinge on human rights. That was before the amendments introduced by my noble friend the Minister. I am surprised that not one person who has contributed to the debate or supported the amendment has referred to the fact that the Joint Committee of both Houses, which contains great specialist knowledge and expert advice on human rights, does not find that the powers contained in the Bill contravene human rights.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I have just quoted from that report. I had it in my hand and referred to Paragraph 27, as did the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. What the noble Lord says is simply not true; two Members of this House have quoted from that report.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate beat me to it. I thought that perhaps we had been listening to a different debate. I was only cross that I had not brought my copy of the report in with me, so I was very glad that the noble Lord referred to it.
We strongly support Amendment No. 20. I shall speak also to Amendment No. 20A. Noble Lords from all sides of the House have raised genuine concerns about this part of the Bill. It is one of the most important aspects that we shall consider. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, spelt the issue out simply. Why is the entry required? Where? When? Is there a chance to be heard? The point cannot be made more briefly or directly. That sums up everything that we said in Committee and are saying again tonight.
We are all anxious to avoid the unnecessary killing of healthy animals if at all possible. We need to give those whose animals may be killed in this way the chance to be heard and to be told what is going on. My noble friend Lord Peel referred to basic and natural justice, which seems to be missing in this bit of the Bill. He felt that the Government had an opportunity to reach out and restore some of the confidence that has been shaken in the farming industry. As I go around, the same frustrations are often raised with me: do the Government understand or care or do they not really mind whether we produce our own food and have our own livestock? Would it not be easier to get rid of the whole lot? There is great concern. It would be immensely helpful if we could allay some of those fears.
In Committee the Minister told us that his legal advisers are not in favour of placing more than is strictly necessary on the face of the Bill. Our contention is that paragraph (b), which would be deleted by Amendment No. 20A, is not only unnecessary, but likely to encourage the sort of behaviour by officials that leads to even greater suspicions and recalcitrance on the part of those whom they are trying to investigate. Many will remember one or two incidents that happened during our last outbreak. A farmer has a flock of sheep. The inspector wants to check them for foot and mouth. The inspector phones up and there is nobody at home. His task is

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urgent, so he goes to a JP and seeks a warrant using the first condition and the second part of the third condition as an excuse. If he is successful, he will have been spared the palaver of giving the farmer notice of entry and the reasons for it. Clearly, as other noble Lords have observed tonight, reasons must be given and there must be some recourse available.
If feelings are running high locally, does the Minister recognise that this is what I call a "Catch-all-22" with regard to my Amendment No. 20A? I thank the noble Countess, Lady Mar, for her support. I believe that the Minister has enough powers under the Bill without paragraph (b). Therefore, when he responds, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will accept our argument.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I respect the views expressed from all parts of the House on the issue, but I disagree with them very centrally. We are talking about one of the powers in the Bill that I personally feel was lacking the last time round. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, referred to misinterpretation of what we call the "Thirsk area". I am not quite as repentant as he suggests, but the statistics certainly relate to North Yorkshire and the patterns of the area because that is the way we keep statistics. However, the occasion of the Thirsk outbreak would, of course, cover the wider area. Thirsk was a new outbreak in that the outbreak in the west of North Yorkshire had been there for some time.
The outbreak in that area of North Yorkshire was both new and very dangerous. As the noble Lord rightly said, it threatened the pig herds of East Riding and of the East Midlands. Moreover, had the disease moved in the wrong direction, we would have been involved in mandatory slaughter or mandatory vaccination—and, therefore, market negation at that point—of all the pigs in those intensive pig farms. As a consequence, many people's livelihoods would have been substantially destroyed.
The noble Baroness says that we must make a gesture that recognises the concerns of the farming community. I should point out to her that all the Bill's provisions are aimed at protecting livestock farming in this country. All the Government's actions were directed towards that aim—some of them worked, but some of them did not work well. However, there was too much delay in the culling of contiguous premises and this threatened the whole process. There are people who object to the contiguous cull, and who say that vaccination is required. But vaccination would also require swift action in these areas.
I do not believe that any Minister of agriculture faced with a new outbreak that threatened huge parts of the pig and livestock industry in a key part of the country would have been happy with the fact that delays were built into the process which threatened to slow down the way in which the disease was being controlled. Those people who we are trying to protect in such areas also have human rights and, indeed, rights to their property. Therefore, it is important for swiftness to be written into these procedures.
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It is also important for reasonableness to be included. We have accepted that greater safeguards on reasonableness should be built into the Bill than was the case with the original format. We have written that into the legislation in terms of the conditions of the warrant procedure, and in many other parts. As my noble friend Lord Carter pointed out, the original Bill was not challenged in this respect by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. We have made it more "bomb proof "from the human rights point of view as a result of these additional safeguards.
The key issue here is representation. Inevitably, delay arises from the ability to make representations on this procedure. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was good enough to mention, it is also true that that does not apply in any other warrant procedure. Moreover, speed is not so much of the essence in some of those other procedures as in the case where one is trying to control a raging epidemic. I should stress that these provisions do not take away all rights from the occupier; indeed, he has the right to make representations to the DVM; the right to seek a High Court injunction, which could block a warrant; and, although this is post facto, there is also the judicial review process as a fall-back. So it is not the case that there is no means of redress, or of delay, open to the occupier.
In normal circumstances, however, the process that we are proposing—the warrant-issuing proposal, which very closely follows warrant-granting proposals in other contexts—is the swiftest way of getting the authority to act. That is what we need. We accept that people have to act with reasonableness, but we also have safeguards in that regard. The magistrate, for example, has to have regard to reasonableness in all aspects of the matter. So we do have a balance between swiftness and reasonableness. To go further and build in an inevitable delay in terms of representations is a safeguard too far for me and could endanger large parts of the rest of the livestock industry. I do not believe that it would in any sense be in the interests of the farming community to build in that delay.
On the face of it, there is a slightly different argument in relation to unoccupied premises, which some of these amendments deal with. I can certainly understand that people might feel that they could be caught out if they were inadvertently down the road when the inspector called. There again, however, the authorities will have to act with reasonableness, and the magistrates will have to be persuaded that the authorities acted with reasonableness. It would not be reasonable if the inspector failed to contact the occupier although he knew, or could reasonably be supposed to know, that the occupier was easily contactable although he or she was not on the premises. The magistrate could find that that was not reasonable, and a court could subsequently find that it was not reasonable. The thread of reasonableness, therefore, already runs through all of these powers.
We therefore do not need this additional requirement. It could even be counterproductive to impose a requirement of reasonableness in relation to this power when there is no such requirement in

1311
relation to the other powers. In normal situations, reasonableness runs through all of the qualifications to the actions of the authorities.
We have a situation in which swiftness is essential, and in which reasonableness has been built in substantially more than it was in the original Bill—which was itself in this respect given a very clean bill of health by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. But noble Lords wish to build in another safeguard which will inevitably cause delay. I do not think that there is a strong human rights argument for doing that. Rather, I think that the human rights and property rights of the rest of the farming community need to prevail over the view that we should provide the occupier of particular premises with an additional delaying process. Such premises may not be diseased, but in the judgment of the authorities—and regardless of whether they are adopting a vaccination or slaughter policy—they are an essential part of preventing the spread of the disease.
Therefore, despite the widespread support on all sides of the House for this group of amendments, I cannot accede to their central point. In the light of what I have said, I hope that they will not be pursued.
10 p.m.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, although I was not terribly encouraged by what he said, I thank the Minister for that reply. I thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I also thank the Minister for taking part, but not for what he said. I tell the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that I am not usually known for being diffident; perhaps I need some time after the dinner break to get going again.
I have several comments on the Minister's reply. I do not think that any of us are challenging the central powers which he seeks. We are certainly not trying to do so in these amendments. He said that the central point of the Bill was to provide the Government with powers that the Secretary of State lacked in the recent outbreak. We are not challenging those powers. We are simply considering some of the ways in which those powers should be constrained to ensure reasonable behaviour.
I am not sure that the discussion of human rights and the Human Rights Act is a fundamental aspect of this debate. I see the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights as a floor below which things should not fall. If things are seen to fall below that, a contravention or problem will arise which clearly has to be dealt with.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I wish to add to my noble friend's remarks. I believe that, when talking about speed, the Minister mentioned delays that may occur as a result of representations being made to magistrates. However, in rural areas magistrates are easily accessible. I believe that that argument is the thin end of the wedge in terms of claiming that such a process would take a long time; it would not.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for those comments. As regards the point that I
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was making about human rights, just because something does not obviously and immediately contravene the convention and the Human Rights Act does not mean that it should automatically take place. Many things which we would not wish to see occur, or would wish to see improved, would not fail the very stark test of contravening the Human Rights Act and the convention. That is a slight red herring.
The Minister said that a thread of reasonableness runs through everything—the whole of life, all legislation, the whole of government, everything that government officials ever do, everything that magistrates and everyone connected with them ever do, and through everything that people contracted to all those bodies ever do. If that was the case, we would not need any laws at all as everyone would behave completely reasonably under all circumstances. We could simply rely on a system of voluntary mutuality for us all to behave reasonably with everyone else and the world would be a rather more ideal place than it is now. The reason we have laws and rules and regulations is that often people do not behave reasonably. Even when they are meant to behave reasonably, they behave in an arbitrary manner or they behave in an unreasonable manner unwittingly because of the circumstances in which they find themselves.
We must remember that the powers we are discussing, particularly the slaughter powers and the compulsory vaccination powers, will be exercised under conditions of great stress—stress for communities, farmers, people who own livestock and occupy the relevant premises, and stress for the whole community. I refer also to stress among magistrates and everyone else. We all observed what happened in last year's outbreak. In such situations people are under great stress. When they are under great stress, they do unreasonable things. All kinds of unreasonable events occurred that should not have taken place under the rules that were laid down. Therefore, we can assume that in stressful circumstances human beings will behave in ways which are not only unreasonable but which they regret later.
The idea that the whole world is wonderful and everyone is reasonable is not something that I can accept. It seems to me that if the rules require reasonableness—I refer in that connection to unoccupied premises or to premises where people are absent—there is no harm in including that in the Bill. If it is not included, it may be said of certain people, "They may be at the church just down the road but they are not on the farm and therefore we shall ignore them", or, "They may be on their other holding at the other end of the village", or, "They may be in the pub", or, "They may be at their grandmother's across the road", or whatever. Simple inquiries may ascertain where the relevant people are and enable a warrant to be served in a proper way. When people are under stress and under great pressure to achieve things quickly, standards slip and, therefore, that is when it

1313
is even more important that the rules put the matter in black and white. As I say, I do not agree with the Minister's comments as regards unoccupied premises.
I believe that the House will want to return to these issues. There may be a fundamental division of opinion. The Minister may say that he cannot go even halfway to accommodate us, or accommodate us at all. If that is the case, there will have to be a showdown. I should regret that because it would be helpful if we could achieve some consensus in this area. Despite what the Minister said, perhaps during the next fortnight some efforts may be made to achieve that. I give notice that this matter will have to be debated again. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No, 20A:
Page 4, line 1, leave out paragraph (b).
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I listened with care to what the Minister did—or did not—say in response to my amendment. This matter involves a catch-all situation and extra powers will given to the Minister, although I do not believe that he needs them. I am not happy with the Minister's response and I wish to test the opinion of the House.
10.10 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 20A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 30; Not-Contents, 41.

Division No. 4

CONTENTS

Arran, E.

Jopling, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Kimball, L.

Attlee, E.

Linklater of Butterstone, B.

Barker, B.

Livsey of Talgarth, L.

Bridgeman, V. [Teller]

Mar, C.

Burnham, L.

Northbrook, L.

Byford, B.

Northesk, E.

Carlisle of Bucklow, L.

Peel, E.

Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]

Plumb, L.

Ferrers, E.

Selborne, E.

Fraser of Carmyllie, L.

Selkirk of Douglas, L.

Greaves, L.

Stodart of Leaston, L.

Harris of Richmond, B.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Hereford, Bp.

Wilcox, B.

Hunt of Wirral, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Alli, L.

Crawley, B.

Andrews, B.

Davies of Coity, L.

Ashton of Upholland, B.

Davies of Oldham, L.

Bassam of Brighton, L.

Desai, L.

Borrie, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.

Burlison, L.

Gale, B.

Carter, L.

Gibson of Market Rasen, B.

Clark of Windermere, L.

Goldsmith, L.

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Gordon of Strathblane, L.

Mallalieu, B.

Grenfell, L.

Parekh, L.

Grocott, L. [Teller]

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Hardy of Wath, L.

Rea, L.

Harris of Haringey, L.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Harrison, L.

Scotland of Asthal, B.

Judd, L.

Skidelsky, L.

Macdonald of Tradeston, L.

Smith of Leigh, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]

Walker of Doncaster, L.

Whitaker, B.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

Whitty, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
10.20 p.m.
[Amendment No. 21 not moved.]
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 22:
Page 4, line 16, after "of" insert "the affected"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 22, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 29, 37 and 56. Perhaps I may point out to noble Lords that Amendment No. 56 appears twice on the groupings list. However, I believe that it is relevant to this group and therefore I shall speak to it now.
I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, amended the wording of the Bill to reflect some of the concerns expressed by myself and other Members of the House. He has not, however, gone far enough to protect people on a farm from the demands of overwork and perhaps being harassed by an inspector, who in turn is being hassled by a boss to achieve the object set him.
The amendment seeks the insertion of the words "the affected" animals—not "infected" animals. We contend that not everyone would feel able to give assistance to an inspector needing help. He would be quite within his rights, as they are currently laid down in the Bill, to call upon, for example, a stable girl, or a daughter or someone living in the household, to assist. She might well be doubly qualified because she has charge of some other animals on the premises. But she might well have nothing to do with the animals that the inspector wishes help with; for example, a stable girl who for particular reasons is petrified of cows, and, knowing little about them, is not able to give the kind of help that the Minister through his inspector seeks. If such a person is coerced into helping and an accident occurs while giving that assistance, who will be liable? Who covers someone who, when asked to give assistance, is perhaps not able and not capable of giving it?
In Committee, the Minister clarified and narrowed the number of people who can be reasonably expected to give assistance. But because the Bill refers to "animals" rather than "affected animals", I believe that the Minister would welcome the insertion of this word. I beg to move.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, I support my noble friend on this. The Bill at the moment states:
"The following persons fall within this subsection—
(a) the occupier of the premises",
and then,
"a person appearing to the inspector to have charge of animals on the premises".
There are so many ways that one could have people on premises in charge of animals who have nothing whatever to do with animals which might or might not be affected in a foot and mouth outbreak.
Nowadays, far fewer people in the countryside are involved in agriculture than when I was a young man and starting farming in the 1950s. As a consequence, there are on a good deal of farms premises that are part of the farm but which are let for entirely non-farming purposes.
I cite an example from the top of my head. Let us say that a house on a farm is part of the farm premises and is occupied by someone who carries on a business breeding dogs—nothing whatever to do with the farm but occupying premises that are part of the farm. Why should someone be involved in all of the legislation who appears to the inspector,
"to have charge of animals on the premises",
when that person may have charge of the breeding of dogs on the premises but knows nothing about cattle, sheep or pigs kept on the premises?
The amendment is entirely appropriate. The Bill should state that the only people who fall under the subsection are persons appearing to the inspector to have charge of animals on the premises that are affected by the outbreak that we are discussing.
As I speak, I can think of another example. A farm that neighbours mine in North Yorkshire has set up a side enterprise in which they breed and sell ornamental fish. When they come to stay, my grandchildren love to go to that farm either to look at or to purchase fish for their aquarium. But those fish are animals.
Nowadays, people on farms are considering alternative enterprises. Years ago, I was one of the first Ministers to encourage alternative enterprises on farms and give public money to support them. Because there was insufficient money to be made from farming, many farming families have arranged for interested people to occupy houses or other premises to carry out enterprises which, through a rental, provide revenue for the farming business but which are totally separate and run by different people from the farming enterprise.
I have cited two examples—dog breeding and fish breeding—that could perfectly well fall under the provision. I plead with the Minister to understand the point. He may not have previously considered such a situation, although I thought that we explained it in Committee. Something must be done to detach from the legal process and legislation people who are totally separated from the enterprise of the farm on which animals are or could be affected by an outbreak of disease. We should concentrate the effect of the law on
1316
those who are solely concerned with animals that may be affected by the disease. I hope that the Minister will take that point.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I have much sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, but I suspect that the Minister will refer us to the parent Act, which tells us what are animals. It includes neither dogs nor fish. It would be helpful to make the amendment, but, unfortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, went off at a tangent.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I spoke at some length in Committee, so I shall be brief. There are other situations: there are cottages on farms that have become empty and farmhouses that have fallen empty. In our part of the world, many barns have been converted into accommodation. An inspector who came from a different area, where there were farm animals, might appropriate the help of some of the people living there. Opposite where I live, there is a barn complex in which 12 people live. Yet there are animals close by. The amendment would be sensible.
10.30 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the noble Countess made my point for me, although she took the effect away with her subsequent sentence.
I thought that I explained previously that in this context and others we were working on the basis of the Animal Health Act 1981 in which animals are defined as animals being susceptible to the disease. That does not include horses, fish or dogs. If we qualify that by saying "affected animals", there will be an argument about which of the susceptible animals are affected by the order or by the requirements of the inspector. It would be a confusing amendment as animals are already defined as animals that are susceptible. All such animals could be covered by a request for assistance. The amendment is not appropriate.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I am disappointed that the Minister considers my amendment inappropriate. I heard what he said, and it is an oversight on my part that I did not re-check. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Byford Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 23:
Page 4, line 29, leave out "issue" and insert "approval by the justice of the peace, which date shall be clearly visible on the warrant"
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 23, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 28, 35 and 54.
When we discussed my amendment, Amendment No. 235, in Committee, it evoked support from all parts. The Minister promised to re-examine the matter, and I acknowledged that there needed to be more work on the wording. As it now stands, the amendment would tie the date on the warrant firmly to the date on which it was approved. I seem to remember

1317
that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said that my previous amendment did not mean that the warrant had been signed and approved on the same day. I remember that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said that some warrants were available pre-signed. It was not my intention to allow that. I hope that the new amendments will be accepted and will provide greater clarity.
At the time, the Minister invoked legal advice to the effect that the Bill should not contain unnecessary material. I agree, but this phrase is not unnecessary. The foot and mouth disease outbreak brought into the open the hostility of the Government towards the fanning community. There was deep suspicion and unhappiness on all sides, as there still is. We have heard evidence that magistrates signed undated warrants. Detective novels, some of which have been filmed or televised, suggest that that practice still goes on, and we should say that it should not. To make sure that it does not, it should be made clear in the Bill that it is illegal. I beg to move.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, I shall listen with enormous interest to what the Minister says, if he decides to oppose the amendment. It would take extraordinary ingenuity to find reasons to oppose my noble friend's proposal. What possibly could be wrong with putting on the document the date on which it was approved by the justice of the peace, which should be clearly visible on the warrant?
Should the Minister seek to oppose the amendment he is being unnecessarily pedantic. I cannot conceive a single reason why it should be opposed. Even the noble Lord, Lord Carter, is assiduous in supporting the Government's line during the proceedings of the Bill to the extent that some of us wonder whether he is still on the Government's payroll. Even the noble Lord, Lord Carter, could not think of a single reason to oppose the amendment, which I consider the most reasonable amendment put before your Lordships today.
Lord Carter: My Lords, the noble Lord obviously has not noticed: I support the Government only when they are right.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, this section of the Bill has been strengthened to include a requirement that the authorities must retain a copy of the warrant, a copy of the record, any steps taken to effect the warrant to enter the premises, and actions taken on the premises. That is compared with the last time we discussed this issue. The Bill will be strengthened and those records will need to be kept for at least 12 months. Therefore, if there is a dispute concerning the date, that will be covered by those additional requirements.
However, I must say that my legal advice remains the same. There is no requirement for this provision to be stated on the face of the Bill, but I cannot think of any other rational argument against the amendment. Therefore, I am prepared to accept it.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister has made my night. I have to tell him, if he hadn't, I would have
1318
voted again, and happily lost again. I am grateful to him—I know we have laughed in rejoicing—but it is a simple amendment that will be warmly welcomed. I thank the Minister warmly for that.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 6 [Slaughter: power of entry]:
Lord Plumb Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 24:
Page 5, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert—
"( ) In this section and sections 62B, 62C and 62D "premises" excludes dwelling houses and buildings being used for non-agricultural purposes."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 24 refers to the exclusion of dwelling houses and buildings being used for non-agricultural purposes. The amendment follows, in practical terms, many of the sentiments that were expressed in Amendment No. 20 proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, as well as many of my noble friends on this side of the House, on warrant to access.
The question is: what do they find when they get access? They find a very different situation that is moving rapidly on a regular basis. Increasingly, premises encompass activities which have nothing to do with the farming business. The farmhouse may have been sold off to a businessman or even an NHS consultant. The farmer and his family may have moved to the cottage that formerly housed the cowman, and so forth. We all understand the regular and continual move that is taking place and putting premises to alternative use.
Many outbuildings have been renewed and restored, and rented to companies employed in the advance of modern technology. I could take many from this House to farms near me in the Midlands where that is taking place at a rapid pace. Many of the enterprises use techniques and equipment which demand an environment that is more reminiscent of a food factory than a primary producer. It should be clear that inspectors have no right to demand entry to premises which they are told are not part of the farm; nor to those which indicate by name-plate signs in the window and so forth that they are separate entities.
This will become an ever-growing problem. It is part of the diversification process that is taking place. In today's business of farming, it is inevitable that it will continue. It will create a problem—I can see it coming—because of the enormous change in the use of buildings. I hope that the Minister will therefore accept our amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I support the amendment. It is important and it spells out many of the factors I emphasised earlier about buildings and the various people living in them. On a lighter note, it so happens that in the village where I live two former farm properties are occupied by psychiatrists. It is therefore possible that the inspector will receive a shock if he knocks on the door!
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. The only objection I can see the Minister

1319
raising is in relation to the lady who kept her sheep in the sitting room and barricaded them in. On the whole, householders ought to be allowed to have their privacy and the Human Rights Act allows them to have that. I support the noble Lord, Lord Plumb.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the provisions under the clause are all subject to reasonableness and proportionate use. It would probably be regarded as disproportionate—although not in this House—to cull psychiatrists. The issue is not what the house is mainly used for; it is whether there are animals in it or whether there is a reasonable supposition that animals are in it. There is not just the odd example of sheep and goats being kept in the house; it occurs frequently because they are kept as pets or because people are trying to avoid the effects of the cull or access to vaccination or testing.
We therefore must provide the authorities with the ability to have access to any building where animals can reasonably be expected to have been kept. A blanket exclusion of dwelling houses and other non-agricultural buildings would inhibit that. Therefore I cannot accept the amendment as drafted.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. He has dealt with only one aspect of the matter. It could well be that 50 people are in the one dwelling and all are involved in different businesses. It could well be that they are in different buildings or even sharing buildings. Therefore, it is not a question of animals being in the houses. It is a question of people being in the houses, an inspector going in with a warrant and not knowing what his responsibilities are or who is allowed to move if disease breaks out on the farm.
We aired the matter fairly fully in Committee and I have raised it again today. I shall withdraw the amendment but we shall return to it at the next stage. In the event of another outbreak, it is a matter of great concern that we recognise the change in farming practice, the use of buildings and the number of people who are in them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 25 to 29 not moved.]
10.45 p.m.
Lord Whitty Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 30:
Page 6, line 39, leave out from "premises" to end of line 42.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will notice that Amendment No. 30 stands in the names of myself and the noble Baronesses, Lady Byford and Lady Wilcox. That is because had the amendment been moved on the previous occasion I would have accepted it. This time I have made it clear beforehand that I intend to accept the amendment.
Amendment No. 30 seeks to remove the power to test for antibodies existing in animals which were kept on the premises during the period of 56 days prior to the day on which the veterinary inspector enters the premises. Having listened to earlier discussions, I accept that the amendment will clarify the power
1320
needed. It will have two effects: it will remove the reference to the 56-day period and it will clarify that the power to carry out tests on samples for antibodies applies only to animals present on the premises at the time of the inspection. It is a useful clarification. I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, when noble Lords saw the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, attached to my amendment they probably wondered what was going on. The Minister, quite properly, wrote to me and confirmed that he would have accepted my amendment on the previous occasion. I cannot think why we did not move it at the time, but that is a day gone by. I am grateful that he realised that, as it stood, the clause was not correct. He has added his name to the amendment, and that defect will now be rectified.
Is the Minister accepting my Amendment No. 31? It follows exactly the same argument and I assume that he will accept it.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, am concerned about paragraph (b). How is an inspector to know whether an animal at any time was infected by disease? It is very difficult for him to detect. I support the noble Baroness's amendment.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am advised that Amendment No. 31 would have a rather different effect. It would remove the power to test for disease in animals which were kept on premises or were at that time infected with a disease. That is rather different from Amendment No. 30, which deals with the time limit and the distinction between animals which were there and animals which were not. I am happy to clarify that with the noble Baroness. If necessary, we can return to the issue on Third Reading.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I had not appreciated that there were grounds for the Minister's concerns. To me it seems that the same logic behind Amendment No. 30 would apply to Amendment No. 31. I am grateful to the Minister for his indication that he will take the matter away and think about it, and perhaps come back on Third Reading to clarify the position.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 31 to 35 not moved.]
Lord Plumb Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 8, line 11, at end insert "specified"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Minister seems to be in a good mood at the moment and I hope that he will accept at least one of my amendments.
If an inspector is going on to a farm to make tests or take samples, he is obviously going there for a purpose. When he arrives he will state that purpose—"I need to take blood samples from your cows" or, say, as we are looking at all diseases and not only one disease, "I need to take blood samples from any animals liable to catch African horse sickness". The point we seek to make in Amendment No. 36 is that he should not be able to exploit a loophole in the law to use his visit to take

1321
samples for a totally unrelated purpose. It is obvious that the Government sincerely believe that the position of farmers is somewhat obstructive. That is how farmers see it. They are terribly nervous at the moment, and terribly concerned, and they read it in the newspapers.
Therefore, I am making the point to the Minister that one is concerned about the behaviour of officials following the last outbreak. It has led to a climate of suspicion and considerable fear in the countryside. I hear that regularly, as I am sure do many other noble Lords, from farmers and others. The important issue is that we should try to work together to ensure that everything that happens from now on is open, transparent and above board—and, above all, is seen to be so. I beg to move.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, as moved by the noble Lord, the amendment is difficult to resist. However, I am not in quite such a good mood. The word "specified" is open to some degree of ambiguity. Clearly, the inspector will have to go in and specify what range of animals is covered. The word could imply that he has to specify each animal. That would be difficult. Because of that ambiguity, I cannot accept the amendment.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I am sad to hear that. I rather felt that the Minister was coming all the way with me, and I was doing my best to persuade him that this was an amendment that he could accept. However, he has made his position absolutely clear. Therefore, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be now adjourned.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with a privilege amendment; the amendment was considered and agreed to.
London Local Authorities Bill [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments and a Special Report made; the Bill was re-committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee and it was ordered that the Special Report be printed.
London Development Agency Bill
Brought from the Commons, read a first time and referred to the Examiners.

Milford Haven Port Authority Bill [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments; the amendments were considered and agreed to.
House adjourned at eight minutes before eleven o'clock