§ Lord Judd asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What discussions they have had with United Nations officials and the United States Government about the implications of the discovery of human remains and scattered clothes near Shiberghan in northern Afghanistan; what are their conclusions; and what action they are taking.
§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)My Lords, sadly, it is alleged that there are a number of mass gravesites in Afghanistan, including the one at Shiberghan. We have discussed these allegations with United Nations and United States officials, and we welcome Hamid Karzai's and regional leaders' statements that they will co-operate with investigations into these sites.
While it is for the Afghan Transitional Authority and the Afghan people themselves to decide how to deal with past crimes, we stand ready to play a supportive role if assistance is requested. We would expect the United Nations to be at the heart of any investigation.
§ Lord JuddMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. However, does she not agree that, apart from the seriousness of the situation that she describes in its own right, if we are to win the battle for hearts and minds in this great strategy in which we are all involved, it is absolutely essential that in Afghanistan we demonstrate not only a relentless commitment to resources and work for economic and social reconstruction, but an equally relentless commitment to justice and human rights? Does she not further agree that we can be neither directly nor indirectly part of any inadvertent attempt, perhaps, to cover up what may have happened and that these matters must be pursued with vigour and expeditiously??
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanYes, my Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with what my noble friend said. So far, our discussions with the United Nations indicate that the most proper way forward would be to engage in a two-stage approach to the investigations—first, forensic investigations and the dignified reburial of those who are in the mass graves, and, later, when the security situation improves, more detailed witness interviews and investigations. The security position is such at the moment that there are concerns that to pursue matters rigorously right now with some of the 952 potential witnesses might leave them open to danger. I hope that my noble friend will agree that that two-stage approach is sensible.
§ Baroness RawlingsMy Lords, will the Minister applaud the impressive work done by the government of Hamid Karzai to overcome the bitter ethnic rivalry that is the root of the violence that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to? Does she recognise that, if further massacres are to be avoided, we must build a stable, democratic, multi-ethnic regime in Afghanistan? Further to the Question by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, what help are we giving by enabling the Afghan Government to overcome ethnic conflict and, in particular, to uphold human rights?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I agree with what the noble Baroness said. Although we are concerned with the example that my noble friend cited, I hope that my initial answer indicated that there are a number of these sites, which may have resulted from atrocities by different groups. It is important that all of them are pursued. The noble Baroness asked what we are doing in particular. The Tokyo Conference pledged some 4.5 billion US dollars to the reconstruction of Afghanistan, and the United Kingdom's contribution to that has been £260 million. In addition, we have contributed some 33 million dollars to security sector reform. The United Kingdom Government are playing a full part in the reconstruction effort.
§ Lord HyltonMy Lords, how many prisoners are still held by the Northern Alliance, and for how long will they be held? Will Her Majesty's Government use their best endeavours to make sure that those people are either tried or released?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, there are varying reports about the number of prisoners still held by the Northern Alliance. At the moment it is extremely difficult for our diplomats to get out of Kabul to verify what is happening in prisons in Afghanistan. The noble Lord will know that the security situation does not allow for that. However, the United Nations is sending out a human rights specialist this weekend. Ms Asma Jahangir will be looking in particular at mass gravesites, but that indicates the level of concern about human rights issues in general in Afghanistan. The noble Lord's question about what has happened in prisons is very pertinent and must be pursued.
§ Baroness Williams of CrosbyMy Lords, I congratulate the Minister on her welcome reappearance at the Dispatch Box, which all of us are delighted to see.
Are the recently suggested steps to extend the international security force beyond Kabul to other parts of Afghanistan not very urgent in the light of the evidence raised by the noble Lord, Lord Judd? Are 953 steps being taken to extend the reach of ISAF to other major cities and even beyond to the countryside of Afghanistan?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her kind welcome back.
The United Nations Security Council resolution that authorised ISAF activities in the first place limited its area of operation to Kabul and the surrounding area. Any expansion of the ISAF area of operation would require an enormous commitment of resources, and there is no guarantee that what worked in Kabul would be effective throughout the country. Any expansion of ISAF beyond Kabul may make the task of leading the force much more complicated. However, I take the noble Baroness's point that it is not just a matter of what is happening in Kabul. Indeed, the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, demonstrate that there are concerns throughout the country. The international community must keep the matter under constant review.