Extremist Organisations: Rallies and Assemblies (Hansard, 8 October 2002)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)
My Lords, I fully understand the fears that events of this type could be used to spread racial hatred if allowed to do so. I believe, however, that the current legislation on public order and incitement to racial hatred has so far proved sufficient to deal with the problems posed by gatherings of this kind. We would, of course, be willing to reconsider this judgment in the light of any emerging evidence that suggested that the powers were inadequate. The powers contained in the Public Order Act 1986 will be kept under constant review.

§ Lord Janner of Braunstone
My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for that Answer. However, is it not totally inconsistent, unreasonable and unacceptable that the authorities have and use the power to ban marches and processions when they have good reason to expect breaches of the peace but have no such power to ban rallies and assemblies? For example, at the Al Muhajarun rally in Trafalgar Square on 25th August the police expected trouble. The authorities banned the march, but they did not ban the rally because they were unable to do so. There was trouble because the Nazis and the fascists turned out and there was violence, as expected. In those circumstances, will my noble and learned friend reconsider the law to see whether the authorities should have the power to ban rallies and assemblies as they have the power to ban processions and marches?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, my noble friend is right in his summary of the law. The police have power to apply to a local authority to ban a procession, but they do not have such a power to apply to ban a rally, although they can apply to the local authority to impose conditions on a rally. The law is as it is because in the 1980s the Government took the view that while some rallies are more difficult to police, and therefore are more likely to bring trouble, problems do not arise to the same extent in relation to static rallies.
We take the view that one should intervene with civil liberties as little as possible. In relation to the events in August in Trafalgar Square to which my noble friend referred, a local by-law was used to ban it. The Metropolitan Police did not make an application, as they could have, to impose conditions on the rally; yes, there was a right-wing counter demonstration; there was some disorder; but it was not considered sufficient to justify even an application for conditions.
137 Although, as I have said, we shall keep the situation under review, we consider that the correct approach is to balance the intrusion against civil liberties with what is necessary for public protection.

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I recognise the legitimate concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Janner, but docs the Minister appreciate that many are concerned that our law on public order can already be used to prevent people exercising their right of free speech in a public place? They were amazed when, for example, a man voicing his views about homosexuality was prosecuted rather than those abusing him and throwing missiles at him.

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I am not sure to what incident the noble Lord refers. As I made clear in my Answer, we regard the right way to approach such matters as being to intrude on civil liberties as little as possible. That is the approach that we currently take in relation to the powers of the police to apply to ban rallies. We do not believe that that is necessary or appropriate. I shall write to the noble Lord about the particular incident to which he has referred. I am sorry that I do not know the detail of it.

Lord Renton
My Lords, in further considering this matter, and with deep respect to my noble friend, will the Government bear in mind that the police already have more than enough to do, are undermanned in many parts of the country, and that their time should not be taken up in giving protection to small gangs of people who are behaving in an anti-racial way or stimulating disorder?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, the obligation of the police is to ensure that public order is preserved. That is a very important role of the police. I am happy to tell noble Lords that there are more policemen in this country than ever before, indeed since records began in 1921.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, I support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Janner. Does the Minister accept that the recent demonstration by the fundamentalists and the right-wing extremists was obnoxious? Does he further accept that at present the police have powers simply to react to situations rather than to ban marches proactively? Therefore, would such a move require a change in the law?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I entirely agree with the condemnation of bodies whose aim is to provoke racial hatred, but for the reasons that I gave at the outset, I do not believe that there is any evidence to suggest that it is necessary to give the police power to apply to a local authority for a ban in relation to a rally. I believe that we should move to that stage only if there is evidence that it is necessary to preserve public order. Although I have indicated that the matter is kept under constant review, at the current time I do not believe that there is a basis for saying that that is the right course.

§ Lord Clarke of Hampstead
My Lords, does my noble and learned friend have any plans to issue 138 further guidance to police in localities such as east Lancashire where neo-fascist organisations are often provocative in saying what they will do? The police, with the local authorities, have a difficult time working out what powers they have. The previous question referred to the police being proactive rather than reactive. Are any guidance notes being reissued to help with the situation?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I am well aware of the issue to which my noble friend refers; namely, the extent to which racist groups can provoke difficulties, particularly in the east Lancashire area. In that respect one of the most important points is that the local authority and the police stay closely in touch with each other and have a joint approach to dealing with the issue. I do not know the position on specific guidance so perhaps I can write to my noble friend on that point.