§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord Moynihanasked Her Majesty's Government:
What is their current policy towards Iraq.
§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)My Lords, our policy remains to ensure that Iraq complies with its obligations under relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions, including by giving up its weapons of mass destruction. The United Nations Security Council, through its unanimous adoption of resolution 1441, has served notice on the Iraqi regime that it must now give up those weapons or face serious consequences.
§ Lord MoynihanMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. We all hope that, in the words of Hans Blix last week, a war can still be averted. However, does the Minister agree that the use of force against Iraq opens up the possibility of an on-going military and political entanglement and that the quicksands of Middle Eastern politics dictate that any decision to use force 558 against Iraq must also include a strategy for the long-term, post-war stability of Iraq and, indeed, of the region as a whole? What assurances, therefore, can the Minister give that Britain will not enter into a conflict against Iraq without a clear, effective and well-planned exit strategy?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord's quote of what Hans Blix said. There has been no decision to launch any military action and we very much hope that we will avert so doing. The government of Iraq is a matter for the Iraqi people. We believe that the people of Iraq deserve a better government, one based on the rule of law, respect for human rights, economic freedom and prosperity. We welcome the external opposition's role in discussing the future of Iraq and in debating issues such as democracy, that cannot be discussed in Iraq. Government officials from the United Kingdom meet regularly with external Iraqi opposition members to remain informed on their thinking. As at the end of the Gulf War, Britain would remain at the forefront of efforts to help the Iraqi people into the future.
§ Lord JuddMy Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the United Nations resolution is to disarm Iraq and that that is the objective? Should it become necessary with UN endorsement to deploy force, can she clarify whether it will be the responsibility of the Secretary-General or the United States to assemble the necessary military operation?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I can confirm that the objective is to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. In the case of a material breach of UNSCR 1441, the matter would be referred immediately to the Security Council. At that point, there would be a discussion about the most suitable way forward. I hope that my noble friend will forgive me, but it is not possible to discuss at this juncture precisely what would happen next; that is to say, whether there would be a united determination on the part of the Security Council to go forward or whether there would be what has been termed a coalition of the willing to do so.
§ Baroness Williams of CrosbyMy Lords, will the Minister take her answer to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, one step further? In the event of an allegation of a material breach not made by UNMOVIC, who would be responsible for interpreting whether there had been a material breach? Does it depend on that statement coming, at least in the first instance, from the UNMOVIC inspectors?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, as regards who would be responsible for determining that material breach, operational paragraph 4 of resolution 1441 states that a material breach arises where there are,
false statements or omissions in the declarations … and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution".559 Of course it cannot give an exhaustive list of what amounts to a material breach. It would be a question of judgment at the time. The noble Baroness is quite right that it might be referred by the inspectorate. But, equally. it might be referred by a member of the United Nations Security Council. There would be an immediate meeting, when no doubt there would be a discussion about how serious such a breach was.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords—
§ Lord Howell of GuildfordMy Lords—
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, has given way twice already.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, I am very much obliged. I hope my question is worthy of the privilege. Does the Minister agree that it is wholly inappropriate for this House to seek to advise Her Majesty's Government as to what they should do in wholly unpredictable circumstances? Does she agree that the essence of the problem is that these weapons of mass destruction, one way or another, shall be destroyed?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I have some sympathy with what the noble Lord said. Perhaps the words "wholly inappropriate" are a little sweeping. In a democracy such as we enjoy in this country. naturally M embers of your Lordships' House will wish to discuss various eventualities. The noble Lord is absolutely right that the circumstances are unpredictable; we are unable to exhaust every possibility of what might arise. Therefore, tying the Government's hands completely in this respect only helps Saddam Hussein himself.
§ Lord Howell of GuildfordMy Lords, perhaps I can ask yet another version of the question by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. If there is a material breach or noncompliance, or if Saddam Hussein lies, as is highly likely. does UN Resolution 1441 allow us to go to war thereafter or is a further resolution on top of a further meeting with the Security Council required before that procedure can take place?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 does not stipulate that there has to be a second Security Council resolution to authorise military action. Such a stipulation was never tabled as part of UNSCR 1441, which has enjoyed the unanimous support of the Security Council. My right honourable friend has made clear that the preference of the British Government in the event of a material breach is that there should be a second resolution. But we are not about rewriting UNSCR 1441. It says what it says, and it does not say that such a second resolution would he necessary.
§ Lord Faulkner of WorcesterMy Lords, does my noble friend wish to take this opportunity to express the Government's complete confidence in Mr Hans Blix and his team of inspectors? Does she agree that attempts in certain parts of the United States to undermine his authority are most unhelpful?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords. Her Majesty's Government have complete confidence not only in Mr Hans Blix but also in Mr El Baradei, who also has a crucial role as part of the IAEA.